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[–] 3 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (86 children)

What if one group says the land another group is standing on is actually theirs and they want to take it back? For example, what if native Americans invading aliens wanted to evict all non-natives non-aliens?

Edit: the hypothetical seems to be pulling a lot of attention away from the point so I updated it with something hopefully less reactionary.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    generally speaking, that is not what landback advocates are calling for. landback means that it is the people who live in concert with the land who will lead its management, and it is the responsibility of others to listen and learn

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    the people who live in concert with the land

    What does that even mean? It sounds an awful lot like noble savage mythology.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    I'm glad you brought this up, because it's something I want to make a distinguishment from. I do not want to fetishize or otherwise dehumanize indigenous people. I merely want to acknowledge that every culture has something they do better than anyone else. Us Europeans? We built pan-oceanic boats capable of traversing the Atlantic, Pacific, Indian, and Arctic Oceans. That's absolutely incredible! We are however, dogshit at land management. Hence the constant European desire to colonize more and more of the planet, taking up more and more land to meet the material needs of an aristocratic class that required closely shorn lawns for leisure activities such as polo and croquet.

    Meanwhile, I also do not think that indigenous north Americans were perfect. For example, the Cherokee committed a genocide against the Osage, the Inca, Aztek, and Mayans all had theocratic structures that were not great for a large number of people living in their territories, the various peoples of the Americas hunted mega-fauna they encountered to extinction. However, in order for any plan for a hopeful future, we must draw wisdom from many sources. We know this because the current European global hegemony is failing. So we need to start looking for wisdom from other sources. One of the things when we interrogate history is that prior to Europe leveraging military violence to place the global south into a perpetual state of underdevelopment is that the people of the Americas had INCREDIBLE land management strategies that were interwoven with their cultural heritages (food, language, social structures) and agricultural outputs leading to some extremely interesting crops that have become staples worldwide such as corn, potatoes, sunflowers, beans, and tomatoes.

    In conclusion: my point is to draw sources from subjugated knowledge

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (1 child)

    my point is to draw sources from subjugated knowledge

    Really not sure what "subjugated knowledge" is supposed to mean.

    In any case this is mostly irrelevant. It's been hundreds or thousands of years, depending on which culture you're talking about. The environmental conditions have changed, the land has changed, and the cultures are long gone. We have newer methods and better options for land and resource management, and for studying the current actual conditions, and for understanding local environments in the context of the global whole.

    the people of the Americas had INCREDIBLE land management strategies that were interwoven with their cultural heritages

    They also had a life expectancy of about 50 years and no methods for treating anything like cancer or sepsis or long-term debilitating conditions. My sister is Type 1 diabetic, she'd probably just be dead by 40.

    I agree that we should have more respect for those that came before and the work they did that we are still benefitting from today (such as the selective breeding for crops you mentioned), but we can't move forward by looking backward. The survival strategies of those past cultures don't scale up to sustain 8 billion people, we need new methods supported by new technologies, better information and system-wide analysis.

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  • [+] 8 points 4 months ago (43 children)
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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (41 children)

    It’s totally just a hypothetical.

    Even hypotheticals must be based on grounding assumptions... what was yours based on?

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago* (40 children)

    I was originally thinking of Israel and the greater Israel project but didn't want to touch on that topic and somehow I'm still regretting it. We're getting away now from what the hypothetical was for aka scenarios where people in group X want people in group Y's land in any sense or scenario no longer specified by anything or any hypotheticals whatsoever.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (17 children)

    So I've actually known indigenous folks! They generally don't want me to leave the country and die until they date me.

    And until pretty recently, most Palestinians just wanted someplace to live and make a living. They didn't mind living alongside filthy Zionist rape monsters, new buildings put together a little taller and no new settlers imported. No idea what the general vibe is now.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (15 children)

    No, I responded to that too.went with your extreme straw manned misunderstanding by pointing out that we have a shitty corporation that already does that. You asked if I owned any children. I think you just want excuses to be scared of others having agency.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (13 children)

    Sure but why the fuck do I care about boomers and black rock execs? Fuck what they have. I don't even know anybody on this continent who owns a home.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (11 children)

    Nah. I'm a millenial. I have a couple younger genx friends, but everyone else I know was born after 1980, most of us are queer. Too many of us went to college.

    We do not own things. We will not inherit things. You're trying to provoke me to racist bullshit with the loss of a privilege that someone else already took. Like a cop shooting me with a grenade launcher and saying "yeah but imagine if a criminal had shot you!".

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (3 children)

    You're just saying shit to say shit. You do not have a point or understanding.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

    I guess, I've just been repeating what I said originally kinda over and over and over again.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    Its not very sensible. You're just a privileged ass who's never had any genuine challenge in life and doesn't want to share his toys and won't stop thinking 12 year olds are hot even when hes far too old for that to be appropriate.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago*

    Born to drug addict and alcoholic parents, father was in jail, mother died of an OD, left home with nothing at 17, couch surfed, got a job, put myself through college, got a better job, improved my life. Don't hold any grudges against my parents, they had their own struggles. I wished someone was there to help them the same way people were there for me. Life now is just me chilling and doing my own thing. You're free to keep making up weird stuff or maybe those ideas are coming to your mind because that's where your head is at.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (21 children)

    I was originally thinking of Israel and the greater Israel project

    Israel is a white supremacist settler-colonialist project that acts like a white supremacist settler-colonialist project... it's a pretty cut-and-dried situation.

    but didn’t want to touch on that topic

    Why not? It's a very easy topic to touch.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (19 children)

    Once again it's just a hypothetical about any scenario where group X may want group Y's land regardless of the details. Maybe group X is good maybe they are bad maybe this maybe that, I think we can step away from the specifics because we're moving away from the original point. Now you're kinda proving why, it's because I thought it would guide the conversation into being about the hypothetical more than the original point which is why I said I guess I should have used aliens.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (10 children)

    Once again it’s just a hypothetical about any scenario where group X may want group Y’s land regardless of the details.

    Those details are important.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (8 children)

    in specific circumstances

    No, in all circumstances. For instance, the justifications of the coloniser can be dismissed out of hand - in all circumstances.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    It’s human nature at its core.

    Bullcrap. It's perfectly obvious where right-wing ideology comes from and who it benefits... stop pretending that all justifications are in any way equal and simply "human nature."

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    like spent time with children?

    How many children do you know that that perpetrates colonialist slaughter?

    I’ma get that tub of ice cream.

    Your attempt to de-politicise this discussion is not working - I wonder why.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (3 children)

    For reference we're not just talking about a singular occurrence or at least I'm not, I never was.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

    For reference we’re not just talking about a singular occurrence

    Sooo... you're saying children perpetrating colonialist slaughter is not a singular occurence?

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    Not what I meant but to entertain your continual attempts to alter the topic of discussion, in the history of humanity I suspect that's not unique.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (7 children)

    There's literally no way anyone can live alongside a Zionist. They'll rape them murder them and post it on twitter, then piss on the corpse and feed it to the dogs they use torape prisoners when they get tired.

    I've had indigenous roommates, and there was hardly any murder or rape involved at all. Nobody had a dog, and nobody pissed on anyone but themselves, and even that only when they had done lots of drugs.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    Yeah because you're kind of an inchoate dipshit who was trying to compare anyone else to Zionists to defend acting like a Zionist.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (29 children)

    Worse than every landlord I've had since 2010 how?

    Fuck it, let em. I don't own shit.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (14 children)

    I mean I explicitly and strongly disagree with that synopsis for whatever it's worth. In its most general sense it's just an aspect of reality. A gazelle wanting to keep its life and a lion wanting to eat the gazelle. Group X wants something group Y doesn't want to give. In a lot of circumstances it is evil but not all. Like conceptually this shouldn't be a highly contested thing, it's about as everyday as the sum rising and setting.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (13 children)

    And you think these two concerns are equal or equivalent to a property transaction? Do you not understand how death works?

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (12 children)

    I'll repeat what I've said. I brought up land and you said land doesn't matter so to get the point across I moved on to something I think does matter to you personally. Of course to others their land is like their life and they are willing to kill and die for it, since you're not currently in that circumstance I had to equate it to something.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (11 children)

    I don't think an ownership change of land is the same as the end of a life, no. The land remains.

    No person I know owns land. My landlord is a corporation. Has always been a corporation.

    I don't think the feelings of colonizers count, matter, or are genuine. They're all theatrical liars making shit up yo justify their racial supremacist and theocratic genocides. They would in nearly every case defile and destroy the thing rather than give it up, and that doesn't sound like the thing is what's important to them, but their fetishization and dominance of the thing.

    I don't think you could comprehend my value system if you tried, and I don't think you have, or respect you enough to explain.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (10 children)

    The world is big, just because you're personally experiencing something doesn't mean everyone else is having the same experience, that everyone lives in the same country, and so on. For instance Palestinians are willing to fight and die for their land even though the individuals don't own all of the land, same for Ukrainians in Ukraine. It's not like every last soldier owns all the land they are defending.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (9 children)

    palestine, Ukraine

    Those are both extermination wars where they previously ceded land and it didn't stop the aggression.

    They fight or they die. The Ukrainians could also run. You don't know what you're talking about, and are trying to fit real world situations to your bullshit. Call me when you're old enough that the fact you still 'date' twelve year olds is creepy.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (8 children)

    They could just run. I doubt Russia would kill all 39M Ukrainians, Israel on the other hand most definitely is trying to kill all Palestinians. Russia just wants a buffer zone between them and NATO as well as those very valuable natural gas deposits and of course a port that doesn't freeze shut every winter. Also to boot the Kievan Rus originate in that area so it's kinda like taking back their ancestral land.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (7 children)

    You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (6 children)

    It's fine we have a difference of opinion.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (5 children)

    No, I have a world view that occasionally flirts with bare-metal reality. Yours has never been in a room with it.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (4 children)

    Once again I disagree. The general circumstance that someone or a group wants something that another individual or group does not want to give is just an aspect of being alive. It can be as simple as simple as a predator and prey to someone getting mugged to a genocide, X wants something Y doesn't want to give. Now how is that not an aspect of reality?

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (3 children)

    But there are no people in one if those groups. Its just corporations.

    And ownership is kind of nonsense.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

    In which specific instance are you referring to? All land on earth isn't owned by corporations. As for ownership, there's always an owner, even in communism the state is the owner.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Honestly? If we had an actual plan in place for where everyone would go i'd play along. I've never been to europe but it seems very nice.

    I'm not exactly keen on the idea but I can't deny that it would be pretty fair.

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