IttihadChe comments on What other things have options where everything is so bad that it's a matter of "what sucks the least" rather than "what's the best"?

[–] IttihadChe@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (10 children)

It's true that "both sides are bad" is what led us to being closer to fascism than ever.

But you've got it backwards.

The "less bad" party being able to count on securing votes simply by being "less bad" allows for the "more bad" party to lead the march, and the "less bad" party to follow while still being "less bad". This creates a slow march towards fascism while maintaining the illusion of choice in the population instilling passivity as they can always just "vote for less bad".

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[–] DomeGuy@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I don't know how you square the circle of asserting that 'both sided are bad' is what got us here and still echoing "less bad" to buttress their thesis

Waiting for the left to be "good" instead of "less bad" is what makes "both sides are bad" such an effective demobilization tactic.

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[–] IttihadChe@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

No, settling for "less bad" instead of fighting for good is what makes the "less bad" continue their march towards fascism.

Very telling you see the only option as voting for "less bad" or "waiting" for them to magically change leftward...

They will never change leftward unless you force them to change.

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[–] DomeGuy@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

What does that fight look like, in your mind? Standing and shouting for Bernie and then sitting out the general when Clinton wins? Or arguing for Bernie in the primary since he's the best choice and then arguing just as hard for Clinton in the general since she's the best choice then?

Primary-only voting doesn't force anyone to do anything but ignore us harder in the primary.

And if that isn't what you mean by your objection to framing all elections as choices for "least bad", then why are you echoing the rhetoric of those who do?

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[–] IttihadChe@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago

If you reward rightward shifts with your vote just as well as you reward leftward shifts. Why would they ever move left, instead of banking your vote and trying to secure more and more rightist votes by moving right? How do you beat fascism by marching along a fascist line?

That fight looks like placing your line in the sand, and once it is crossed those on the other side are your enemies, lest you end up following and drawing new meaningless lines.

That fight looks like working within your communities to spread education and recognition about who those enemies are, and building structure in your community so that when the enemy is identified you can work together to ensure the enemy feels your resistance.

After which, they may just cross that line back over, recognizing that you now see them as an enemy and not an ally, and that they need you if they wish to have success.

If they don't, then that just further reveals their intention was always to march rightward regardless, the only difference is you are no longer marching alongside them and have instead set the groundwork for opposing fascist enemies.

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[–] corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

Pay attention in school, kids, lest you miss learning what a binary choice is.

And evolution.

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[–] IttihadChe@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

"Pay attention in school, kids, lest you miss learning what a king is"

~ defender of kings prior to their overthrow.

"Pay attention in school kids, lest you miss learning what an autocratic dictatorship is"

~ Cuban Batista defenders prior to the revolution.

"Pay attention in school slaves, lest you miss learning what a slave master is"

~ Southern slaveholder prior to the abolition of slavery.

Yes, when you confine your thinking to only exist within the current system, thats all you can comprehend.

Here's the thing though, when the choice is between two slides towards fascism, A steep one, and a slightly less but still increasingly steep as you descend one, the only way to escape fascism is not to choose which slide you take, but to build an off ramp.

You will not defeat the system from working within, you need to build external power structures.

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[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Pay attention in school, kids, lest you miss learning what a king is"

~ defender of kings prior to their overthrow.

"Pay attention in school kids, lest you miss learning what an autocratic dictatorship is"

~ Cuban Batista defenders prior to the revolution.

"Pay attention in school slaves, lest you miss learning what a slave master is"

~ Southern slaveholder prior to the abolition of slavery.

I don't get your point, those are all very good things to know.

You will not defeat the system from working within, you need to build external power structures.

What does that look like in your mind? And how does that conflict with slowing the slide in the meantime while you build the off ramp?

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[–] IttihadChe@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

They are all very good ways of framing the current system as the only system, one which you must just accept.
I literally painted an outline above of what it looks like, not just in my mind but in reality. The Muslim/leftist community drew a line on the Gaza genocide, and the Democrats crossed it. The Muslim/leftist community then worked together to make it known that the Democrats were now our enemy for crossing said line.

The Democrats can either cross back, or they can continue their fascist march, while you defend them.

You must exit the slide because if you don't you will inevitably find yourself supporting fascism, just like how the democratic party defenders are defending Genocide, something I'm sure you all thought would be a solid line only a few years ago. But you crossed it, and will continue to cross any other lines until we reach full implemented fascism, at which point you will wonder why "nobody resisted"...

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[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works -2 points 1 year ago

They are all very good ways of framing the current system as the only system, one which you must just accept.

They're all also very good ways of understanding the system. How do you fight an autocratic dictatorship if you don't know what that is?

I literally painted an outline above of what it looks like, not just in my mind but in reality. The Muslim/leftist community drew a line on the Gaza genocide, and the Democrats crossed it. The Muslim/leftist community then worked together to make it known that the Democrats were now our enemy for crossing said line

I saw. Consequently, the fast fascists won and made the Gaza genocide worse. I'm not sure how you can frame that as a positive result for Gaza.

The Democrats can either cross back, or they can continue their fascist march, while you defend them.

I'm not defending them, I'm advocating the leaser evil while not-evil is still too disorganized to gain power. It's not enough for Democrats to lose, because the alternative is worse. If there is no alternative positioned to win, Democrats are still better than Republicans.

You must exit the slide because if you don't you will inevitably find yourself supporting fascism, just like how the democratic party defenders are defending Genocide, something I'm sure you all thought would be a solid line only a few years ago. But you crossed it, and will continue to cross any other lines until we reach full implemented fascism, at which point you will wonder why "nobody resisted"...

Too late, we're there. Neo-liberals weren't pure enough, so now we have brown shirts and concentration camps. You haven't actually outlined the alternative, all you're doing is saying that lesser evil isn't good enough. There is no good option with prospects to succeed, so refusing to support lesser evil just ensures a victory by the greater evil. And here we are.

It's not enough to oppose both evils. You need to have a good to replace them. If your good has no chance, you just empower the greater evil. Where is your good alternative with the power to win?

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[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works -2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I'd much rather a slow march to fascism than a fast one. When more than 15% of voters start showing up to primaries, we can start talking about marching the other way. As for now, your options are fast fascism and slow fascism. Stomping your feet and declaring that slow fascism isn't good enough doesn't change the options.

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