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[–] 1 point 5 months ago (18 children)

As I said, the Sino-Soviet split was a tragedy. The world would have been better off had it never happened. However, China is not capitalist, just like public ownership under capitalism is not socialism, private ownership under socialism is not capitalism.

Further, I am not giving Mao all of the credit. Of course the USSR assisted. However, you're giving Mao practically none of the credit for overseeing the same tumultuous period Stalin oversaw, in a country even less developed. Mao's economic construction was not a mistake, it was uneven and unstable but ultimately positive, and serves as the bedrock for the modern socialist market economy.

Neither Mao nor Stalin were perfect. Both made mistakes, as any socialist leader will, especially in some of the earliest attempts. However, both also achieved tremendous results.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (17 children)

    private ownership under socialism is not capitalism.

    Private property and the means of production are two different kinds of property. I hope Dialectics will overcome this obstacle.

    And I agree with you that China has a unique government system, unlike any other in the world.

    The struggle and unity of opposites. When class struggle rages, socialism is being built; when the struggle ceases, communism begins.

    But we mustn't forget, as Stalin would probably say in my place, the NEP is a swamp: the further you go, the deeper you sink, and the harder it is to get out.

    However, you’re giving Mao practically none of the credit for overseeing the same tumultuous period Stalin oversaw

    I fully give Mao his due for having governed during the same era that Lenin did. Furthermore—with the assistance of the USSR—Mao laid the foundation for the China of the future. However, those things he attempted to accomplish on his own—or believed he could accomplish single-handedly—did not turn out particularly well.

    For Reference:

    Under Mao Zedong, the foundations of heavy industry were established in China. While the exact number of small-scale enterprises (specifically, backyard furnaces) ran into the hundreds of thousands, there were 154 major industrial facilities of primary importance. These were constructed during the 1950s with active technological and financial support from the USSR.

    Soviet Assistance (1950s): The USSR transferred technology to China and built 154 major industrial enterprises from the ground up. These included giants such as the First Automobile Works (FAW) in Changchun, metallurgical complexes in Anshan and Wuhan, as well as aircraft and machine-building plants.

    The "Great Leap Forward" Campaign (1958–1960): Mao Zedong attempted to accelerate industrialization using artisanal methods. Approximately 600,000 small, makeshift blast furnaces for smelting steel were constructed across the country. The attempt failed: the resulting steel was of poor quality, and the campaign triggered a massive economic crisis and famine.

    The "Third Front" Program (1960s): Following the rupture in relations with the USSR, China began constructing military, heavy industrial, and machine-building plants in the country's interior—specifically in the mountainous and hard-to-reach western provinces—in preparation for a potential war. Several hundred such facilities were erected, although their economic efficiency proved to be extremely low.

    Now, pay particular attention to the years 1958–1960. This was precisely when Mao began "hunting sparrows," scapegoating them as the cause of all the nation's failures. In reality, the true culprit was the disastrous failure of his project involving the backyard blast furnaces operated by the peasantry. I spoke about this earlier.

    Now, just judge for yourself: how much simpler it would have been to simply turn to Soviet specialists—who, at the time, were world leaders in steel production—rather than embarking on that monstrous gamble, which ultimately led to the starvation of the peasantry.

    How do you assess such a decision coming from a man who was the leader of a vast nation? I call it a reckless decision! He didn't want to invest money in large-scale industrial enterprises—the way Stalin did over the course of a decade; he wanted to achieve it faster, and solely at the expense of the peasants.

    Just think about how absurd that sounds: becoming the world leader in steel production on the backs of the peasants.

    How does that even make sense, Comrade? There is only one explanation: Mao confused steel with rice cakes.

    We had a similar "corn tycoon" of our own... Khrushchev, who thought the U.S. had built its wealth on corn... the moron!

    And mind you, I’m not drawing my data from books by modern Russian authors; I’m drawing it from old Soviet films.

    If you could actually understand what is being said in them, your ears would shrivel up, and all your dialectical musings would hit a brick wall. This is a subject you know absolutely nothing about.

    But I won't translate it for you—I wouldn't want to kill the poet inside you.

    https://youtu.be/Ny28m_9TSDM

    Most importantly, the man narrating the clip states that he created this film for one specific reason.

    He is a writer, and he had a falling-out with his colleagues—fellow socialist writers from the GDR and France.

    Do you know why they fell out?

    Now, take a deep breath, Comrade.

    Because he argues that the socialism practiced in China isn't real socialism...

    I’m not making any assertions here myself; I’m simply showing you archival footage from the 1970s.

    Neither Mao nor Stalin were perfect.

    I completely agree with you.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (16 children)

    I don't just mean personal property, I mean private ownership of the means of production and distribution. This is the germ of capitalism, but is not capitalism itself. Socialism and capitalism are systems, you cannot slice up parts of the system and identify some as capitalist and some as socialist.

    Regarding Mao's significance in liberating China, I already agree with you. However, I sincerely disagree with your underplaying of Mao's contributions towards the buildup of socialism in China.

    As for the Great Leap Forward, during 1949 and 1978, the per hectare yield of land sown with food crops increased by 145.9% and total food production rose 169.6%. During this period China’s population grew by 77.7%. On these figures, China’s per capita food production grew from 204 kilograms to 328 kilograms in the period in question.

    In 1952, industry was 36% of gross value of national output in China. By 1975, industry was 72% and agriculture was 28%. It is quite obvious that Mao’s supposedly disastrous socialist economic policies paved the way for the rapid economic and industrial development of Reform and Opening Up.

    Official Chinese statistics show that after the end of the Leap in 1962, industrial output value had doubled; the gross value of agricultural products increased by 35 percent; steel production in 1962 was between 10.6 million tons or 12 million tons; investment in capital construction rose to 40 percent from 35 percent in the First Five-Year Plan period; the investment in capital construction was doubled; and the average income of workers and farmers increased by up to 30 percent. Additionally, there was significant capital construction (especially in iron, steel, mining and textile enterprises) that ultimately contributed greatly to China's industrialization.

    Heavy industry grew a great deal in this period too. Developments such as the establishment of the Taching oil field during the Great Leap Forward provided a great boost to the development of heavy industry. A massive oil field was developed in China. This was developed after 1960 using indigenous techniques, rather than Soviet or western techniques. (Specifically the workers used pressure from below to help extract the oil. They did not rely on constructing a multitude of derricks, as is the usual practice in oil fields).

    See the original link for sources. Of course, there were mistakes, such as relying on the peasantry for the creation of steel in backyard furnaces. However, it is also undeniable that industrialization was rapidly achieved.

    I have given my arguments as for why China is socialist, and the term "real socialism" is more religious and sentimental than logical. China is under a dictatorship of the proletariat, and has public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. This is true.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (15 children)

    I don’t just mean personal property, I mean private ownership of the means of production and distribution. This is the germ of capitalism, but is not capitalism itself. Socialism and capitalism are systems, you cannot slice up parts of the system and identify some as capitalist and some as socialist.

    I understand all of that, but I’m getting at something slightly different.

    I hope you’ll agree with me that socialism in China is not yet fully built—that it is still in a raw, unfinished state.

    In your view, what will socialism in China look like once it reaches its completed form?

    How will people be induced—through the use of "soft power"—to give up private property? Or will they be compelled to give it up at all?

    However, I sincerely disagree with your underplaying of Mao’s contributions towards the buildup of socialism in China.

    Yes, Mao did lay the industrial and agrarian foundations over the course of several decades—I agree with that.

    However, don't forget that by the 1940s, the USSR had risen to second place in the world in terms of industrial capacity! Stalin even appeared on the cover of Time. The entire world acknowledged it. And this wasn't merely a foundation, but a fully operational industrial sector. Furthermore, you can scarcely imagine the destitute state the country was in back in 1930.

    Now, perhaps, you understand why I consider something else entirely to be truly remarkable.

    the term “real socialism” is more religious and sentimental than logical.

    You’re trying to take a jab at me again with this "incorrect socialism" argument.

    Okay, let me be more precise, then. In that video, the host referred to Chinese socialism as Maoism—specifically stating that Maoism is a distorted superstructure built upon Marxism and Leninism. That is precisely—word for word—how it was viewed in the USSR back then.

    And let me reiterate: I didn't say this to you; the USSR said it. Every single film in the Soviet Union was subjected to rigorous censorship before being aired on television.

    China is under a dictatorship of the proletariat

    Yes—except that the term "dictatorship of the proletariat" was struck from the CPC Charter in the early 80s... in case you didn't know.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (14 children)

    Socialism in China is already existing, just in a primary stage, rather than advanced. As production and distribution advances, private ownership will continue to be gradually appropriated and folded into the public sector, creating a fully planned economy. Here's Cheng Enfu's diagram explaining it:

    I'm aware that the USSR had critique of Chinese socialism. China also criticized Soviet socialism, and in many cases I agree with the Soviets over the Chinese socialists. However, this does not mean Mao Zedong Thought is a "distorted superstructure," Mao Zedong Thought is the learned experience and theory from China's specific socialist construction process. Functionally, the PRC remains a dictatorship of the proletariat.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (13 children)

    Socialism in China is already existing, just in a primary stage, rather than advanced.

    Yes, I completely agree with you and have never denied that. I merely pointed out China's current shortcomings—issues that need to be addressed, rather than denied as if they didn't exist.

    As production and distribution advances, private ownership will continue to be gradually appropriated and folded into the public sector, creating a fully planned economy.

    Yes, the ultimate goal is clear to me as well.

    Here’s Cheng Enfu’s diagram explaining it:

    Yes, I have a rough idea—but, Comrade, I don't know English quite as well as I'd like. And Google doesn't translate tables...

    I’m aware that the USSR had critique of Chinese socialism.

    That’s putting it very mildly... The thawing of relations didn't begin until the Gorbachev era. Finally, the Chinese leadership liked what was happening in the USSR... ))) But in reality, it was all very simple: the USSR admitted defeat.

    China also criticized Soviet socialism

    (What was written in Smena magazine, February 1–3, 1967)

    "Red Guards" (紅衛兵) Block the Way

    "For the sixth day, the Soviet Embassy in Beijing has been besieged by frenzied mobs of Red Guards. Anti-Soviet speeches are being broadcast via loudspeakers. Announcers read out 'death sentences' issued by the Red Guards against embassy staff members. A welcoming ceremony for Chinese students arriving in Beijing—students who had participated in hooliganistic disturbances on Red Square in Moscow on January 25—was turned into an anti-Soviet demonstration. Speeches delivered at the event contained crude invective and calls for violent reprisals against Soviet citizens. On the streets, Soviet citizens—including diplomats leaving the embassy—are surrounded by crowds of Red Guards who block their path, hold them in place for hours on end, and subject them to humiliation, intimidation, and blackmail."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embassy_of_Russia,_Beijing

    Mao Zedong Thought is the learned experience and theory from China’s specific socialist construction process.

    ...very specific, to put it mildly...

    Functionally, the PRC remains a dictatorship of the proletariat.

    This question should be directed at Ma—and at those who buy luxury cars. China is the global leader in luxury car purchases.

    I’m curious: when China makes its full transition to socialism, what will become of all those cars, yachts, and villas? Or will every Chinese person be able to afford them? ... )))

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (12 children)

    I'm not denying that China has shortcomings. I believe you are magnifying them beyond their actual levels.

    As for Cheng Enfu's diagram, it essentially describes increasing planning and decreasing marketization over time. Marketization helps socialize production, and over time this is reigned in, creating a fully planned economy.

    As for Mao Zedong Thought, some aspects have applicability elsewhere. The Mass Line is a generally useful tactic, Protracted People's War can be useful in largely agrarian countries with high peasant populations and smaller urban centers, and so forth. It isn't universal, but Mao Zedong Thought works well for China and tactics from it have seen success in the global south, including in Vietnam.

    As for your insinuation that there are privledged people in China, yes, this is true. This is a side-effect of the socialist market economy. It's a tradeoff, an inefficiency that serves as a sort of price for the positive aspects of the socialist market economy. Excessive luxury is being cracked down on, and as China's socialist system develops, obscene wealth is being diminished while absolute wealth rises for the average worker.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (11 children)

    I’m not denying that China has shortcomings. I believe you are magnifying them beyond their actual levels.

    In case you hadn't noticed, I am basing my arguments exclusively on historical facts—the vast majority of which have been verified against sources from both the West and the East.

    If you have any specific questions regarding this, please point them out to me.

    As for me, watching documentary footage of the events that took place in China during those years sometimes makes my hair stand on end...

    We are not discussing modern Chinese history right now; we are talking about the post-war era in China.

    Oh, I also forgot to add something. The USSR handed over complete technical documentation for 1,500 major industrial enterprises to Mao. The USSR provided all of this free of charge. Can you imagine what Mao would have managed to build there without it? He probably would have forced peasants to engage in mechanical engineering and metal rolling right in their vegetable gardens.

    I recall you claiming that Mao built things—or something to that effect—without any involvement from the USSR... yeah, right.

    To me, Mao is akin to Castro or Che Guevara—certainly not to Stalin in the 1930s. Mao was a professional, iron-willed revolutionary; Mao was a warrior. He succeeded in uniting the Chinese people and leading them. Mao established a robust state system—one that subsequently withstood the onslaught of capitalism.

    As for Mao Zedong Thought, some aspects have applicability elsewhere. The Mass Line is a generally useful tactic, Protracted People’s War can be useful in largely agrarian countries with high peasant populations and smaller urban centers, and so forth. It isn’t universal, but Mao Zedong Thought works well for China and tactics from it have seen success in the global south, including in Vietnam.

    This is the first I've heard of the Line of Masses—very interesting.

    This is the first I've heard of the "Line of the Masses"—very interesting.

    Is this connected to those leaflets that were pasted on the wall? I’ve forgotten what those walls are called.

    Excessive luxury is being cracked down on

    I would like to understand the mechanisms of this process.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (10 children)

    I never said Mao did not rely heavily on the USSR, so I will largely ignore those points as we do not really disagree.

    Regarding the Mass Line, it is essentially the tactic of taking policy from the people, and having the party reinterpret it and enact it accordingly. It is a way to avoid commandism and tailism, and has been applied by various ML or Maoist parties. Maoists tend to believe it is universal, while MLs tend to believe it is particular to certain conditions similar to China's experience.

    As for cracking down on excessive luxury, one example is the censorship of flaunting wealth on social media, and punishing those found guilty of corruption, taking bribes, etc. In China, the number of billionaires is decreasing, as the NEP-style economy is transitioning to a more advanced planned economy gradually.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (9 children)

    Regarding the Mass Line, it is essentially the tactic of taking policy from the people, and having the party reinterpret it and enact it accordingly. It is a way to avoid commandism and tailism, and has been applied by various ML or Maoist parties. Maoists tend to believe it is universal, while MLs tend to believe it is particular to certain conditions similar to China’s experience.

    Yes, I’ve familiarized myself a bit with the mass line; yes, I agree, it’s a very good idea.

    While looking into it, I came across this:

    "But the socialist system in our country has been established only recently; its formation is not yet complete, and it has not yet fully consolidated itself. In joint state-private industrial and commercial enterprises, capitalists still receive a fixed percentage—that is, exploitation still exists; in terms of ownership, enterprises of this type are not yet fully socialist in character. Some agricultural and handicraft production cooperatives still retain a semi-socialist character; even in fully socialist cooperatives, certain specific issues regarding ownership still need to be resolved."

    No, Comrade, it wasn't Xi who said that; it was Mao in 1957... ))) I hope you catch the hint, Comrade.

    I decided to explore Mao's writings a bit and chose this book:

    "On the Correct Handling of Contradictions Among the People"

    the censorship of flaunting wealth on social media

    This is likely not an attempt to combat ostentatious displays of wealth, but rather a move to temper public resentment—to keep it out of the public eye.

    and punishing those found guilty of corruption

    By the way, a fierce crackdown on corruption is currently underway in Russia. This began after the war started, when it turned out that everyone had been pulling the wool over Putin's eyes with inflated reports. A great many generals are currently in prison, and the same applies to local officials; Putin has given them a bit of a shake-up.

    Corruption is dangerous and harmful under any political system.

    China, the number of billionaires is decreasing

    Yes, I heard that the number of billionaires has decreased slightly.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (8 children)

    I'm aware that Mao believed that. That's why the narrative that Deng Xiaoping "backstabbed" socialism is false, Reform & Opening Up was a continuation of the economic basis laid out by Mao.

    As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it's only to hide it from the public. A more comprehensive view of China, however, reveals it to not be mere rhetoric but the outcome of having both a socialist state and the contradictions rising from marketization.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (7 children)

    I’m aware that Mao believed that.

    Yes, exactly! That is the main argument—held by the Chinese themselves, by Western socialists (Trotskyists), and by the "new breed" of Western socialists (like you): that China fell out with the USSR because Khrushchev pursued a policy of "openness." But I keep telling you all that this isn't true, and it wasn't about Stalin! The reason was something else entirely.

    Relations between Khrushchev and Mao deteriorated completely after Mao asked the USSR to build a nuclear submarine fleet for China. Khrushchev agreed, but with the stipulation that the fleet would be a joint venture and based in Soviet Far Eastern ports. For some reason, Mao took great offense at this and refused. Now you can see just how brazen Mao was. These are all matters of public record; you can read about it yourself.

    I believe the reason for the rift was that, after Stalin's death, Mao considered himself the world's leading socialist—superior to the others and capable of handling everything on his own. He did not view Khrushchev as his equal.

    We saw how that turned out.

    As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it’s only to hide it from the public.

    Yes, I know the statistics: wage growth in China is 4–6% annually. But I’m not convinced that wages are rising only for the poor—or that the 4–6% gains belonging to the middle and upper classes are being taken away and redistributed to China’s lower-income population.

    Show me the data on that trend, and then I’ll agree with you.

    I’d like to see statistics for these companies:

    JD.com: The revenue leader among China’s private enterprises, generating around 1.16 trillion yuan annually.

    Alibaba Group: JD.com’s main rival in the e-commerce market, showing steady growth driven by logistics and international expansion.

    ByteDance (owner of TikTok): The fastest-growing brand and largest private tech corporation. According to analyst reports, its brand value grew by 45% in a single year, reaching $153.5 billion.

    In cases where profits surged by 45% (an increase of 70 billion per year), exactly how much of that actually went to the poorer segments of the population?

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (6 children)

    I think you're reading more into my position than I have stated myself. I understand that Mao was not innocent within the split, neither were the soviets. That's why I have stated that the split was a tragedy and should have been avoided had both sides statesmen been competent enough.

    As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in "scary language." The trend is gradual, but it isn't nonexistent either.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (5 children)

    I think you’re reading more into my position than I have stated myself.

    Yes, Comrade, you’re right. It’s a very painful subject for me.

    To me, this is just like Solzhenitsyn’s The Gulag Archipelago, a work that slandered and humiliated the entire Soviet ideology. Both have fostered a distorted view of the Soviet era. They have given rise to all sorts of false theories that are published and circulated worldwide on a massive scale.

    Yet the Soviet soul is all I have left in life now. I am being bombed every night, but I live in the past—I live on memories...

    As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in “scary language.” The trend is gradual, but it isn’t nonexistent either.

    Ma crossed a red line; Xi decided that the oligarchs were becoming a threat to him... though he seems to have realized this rather late.

    We can certainly see Ma’s attempt to meddle in state affairs. People used to tell me that China has no oligarchs because Chinese billionaires don't interfere in government business. Yet, I highly doubt that was the first time Ma had meddled in state affairs—after all, he is a long-standing Communist Party member.

    To be honest, Comrade, what is actually happening in China is a closely guarded secret.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    Again, I think you're reading the situation through pessimistic hermeneutics, seeing what isn't actually there as present based on pessimism.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (3 children)

    That’s an interesting way to put it. Are you referring to Cervantes and the windmills?

    My subjective pessimism stems from the fact that I’ve lost faith in my own future—my personal future. It’s just that, due to certain circumstances, I reached a point where I lost hope for what lies ahead. I’ve come to terms with that now.

    As for objective pessimism, that has nothing to do with my personal outlook. If you like, you could call it dialectics in its most extreme form... )))))

    But seriously, Comrade, when was the last time you saw someone looking toward humanity's future with confidence and optimism—without any illusions?

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    I'm referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Your mind fills in the blanks, so to speak. Nobody is immune to this, I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Optimism is a revolutionary feeling, pessimism leads to nihilism.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (1 child)

    I’m referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it.

    Yes, you described that guy accurately. And that’s hardly surprising, because in this world, he has no choice but to be a sociopath.

    As for the idea that I might be talking nonsense—that’s unlikely; I have far too much practical life experience to spout complete rubbish. I’ve clawed my way to the top three times in my life, only to hit rock bottom again. Right now, I’m at the bottom once more. Would you be an optimist if you were in my shoes, Comrade? ... ))) And please, don’t tell me that I’m the one to blame for it all, rather than the way life is set up!

    I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist.

    You just got lucky, Comrade! I'm happy for you.

    I was just like that once, too.

    I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis.

    Yes, it's Dostoevsky: The most terrible thing is when a person has nowhere to go. This quote reflects one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's most haunting themes: the crushing despair of total alienation and the human necessity for purpose.

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