▲ 225 ▼ Past failures don't define the future of socialism (lemmy.ml) submitted 5 months ago by Rindogang@lemmy.ml to c/memes@lemmy.ml 111 comments fedilink hide all child comments The people before us weren't perfect. Their mistakes are blueprints to learn from and build a better world
[+] PlanchetteGhost@lemmy.world 13 points 5 months ago (59 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source hideshow 59 child comments replies: [–] eldavi@lemmy.ml 19 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) im presuming that you're presenting yourself i good faith and you sound like me not long ago; i want to share something that's been helpful in dispelling the inception like nature of sources from the western that likely gave you this conclusion: For heaven’s sake, his own guards were scared of him. In fact, he died because he instilled so much fear into them. Personally, I’m more of a collectivist who doesn’t believe in authoritarianism. (i know that you're getting this from a western source because you used the word authoritarian). the freedom of information act, passed in the 1960s, forces the us government to release files -- like they released the epstein files -- where the cia, fbi, state dept, etc. admit in writing that they make shit up. you have to wait at least 25 years after the event, but you can already read some files -- just like people are reading the epstein files rn -- of shit they made up about north korea being “authoritarian.” (you can even see how they chose that word). but the key part is that they admit to lying to us about north korea’s authoritarianism. so if your source calls north korea authoritarian, know the us government invented that in the 1950s, was forced by law to admit the lie to the public in the 1970s and that any source still pushing this narrative can’t be trusted. you're never going to be a leftist if you don't question your own sources. permalink fedilink source parent [–] brynden_rivers_esq@lemmy.ca 17 points 5 months ago (7 children) On Authority is a pointed response to the thought-terminating pejorative of “authoritarian.” If you haven’t read it, you should! It’s short and important =) You want a change in society? You don’t care that fascists don’t want that change? Then you’re an authoritarian. Everything after that is a matter of degree. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago (4 children) The CIA, in an internal memo never meant to be released, made it clear that Stalin was not a dictator and that leadership was collective. The USSR brought dramatic democratization to society. First-hand accounts from Statesian journalist Anna Louise Strong in her book This Soviet World describe soviet elections and factory councils in action. Statesian Pat Sloan even wrote Soviet Democracy to describe in detail the system the soviets had built for curious Statesians to read about. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Aralakh@lemmy.ca 6 points 5 months ago (3 children) From the CIA memo, what does "the MVD" stand for? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Edie@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago (2 children) Ministry of Internal Affairs, successor to the NKVD (Peoples Commissariat) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Aralakh@lemmy.ca 6 points 5 months ago Thank you! permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 5 months ago Beat me to it! permalink fedilink source parent [–] brynden_rivers_esq@lemmy.ca 8 points 5 months ago If you’re willing to do something about that wish, then you’re an authoritarian too. And FWIW, casting it in personal terms makes that wish tautological. No one wishes for a system where they have to cater to the whims of someone else. I’m sure you meant to say “no one has to cater to anyone else’s whims,” and that’s all well and good. Still authoritarian if you’re willing to see anything at all done to overcome the desires of the powerful to maintain the status quo (and in case it’s not obvious, that’s a good thing to be authoritarian about). permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 21 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (20 children) This isn't really true. Stalin was often described as a quiet listener in collective meetings, and was widely beloved. He developed a cult of personality against his own wishes, due to leading the country successfully during its most chaotic and desparate periods. This happens to all leaders in such situations, FDR was almost revered as a god in the US. Stalin turned down awards like the Hero of the Soviet Union, and refused to change Marxism-Leninism to Marxism-Leninism-Stalinism, essentially equating his own contributions (particularly on the national question and linguistics) to an extremely minor aspect compared to Marx and Lenin. Khrushchev, in trying to cement his position, tried to attack each part of Stalin's legacy. His staunch dedication to preparing for World War II, his careful contemplation of the National question as one of the foremost theorists on it within the realm of Marxism, and as someone who detested undue praise. Khrushchev flipped each of these on their heads without base (such as suggesting Stalin planned front line battles on a globe), and instead of killing the cult of personality, turned it into a negative cult of personality and created a total nihilism for the prospects of building socialism. I highly recommend Domenico Losurdo's How to Cast a God into Hell: The Khrushchev Report. As Weng Weiguang wrote, The Evaluation of Stalin is Essentially an Ideological Struggle. Repudiating Stalin is less about the historical figure and more about what was accomplished during his service. Demonizing Stalin demonizes the soviet union during its major industrialization, and therefore demonizes the most critical era for socialism in advancing on what came before. In clearing Stalin's name, we clear the record of socialism historically, proving it can, did, and does work definitively. This isn't wasted effort, but is absolutely critical, especially as the demonized visage of Stalin is used as a club to beat Marxists and anti-imperialists in general (even non-Marxists!). permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 20 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 20 points 5 months ago (15 children) good friend to that big bad Hitler guy. This is a children's cartoon-ass story that falls apart at the slightest investigation. 80% of dead nazis died on the eastern front. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Bloomcole@lemmy.world 12 points 5 months ago People who believe that fascists, whose aim and total reason of being was to combat communism would be partners with them. That is just embarrassing permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 18 points 5 months ago (12 children) The communists were never allies with the Nazis. A non-aggression pact is not an alliance. The communists spent the decade prior trying to form an anti-Nazi coalition force, such as the Anglo-French-Soviet Alliance which was pitched by the communists and rejected by the British and French. The communists hated the Nazis from the beginning, as the Nazi party rose to prominence by killing communists and labor organizers, cemented bourgeois rule, and was violently racist and imperialist, while the communists opposed all of that. When the many talks of alliances with the west all fell short, the Soviets reluctantly agreed to sign a non-agression pact, in order to delay the coming war that everyone knew was happening soon. Throughout the last decade, Britain, France, and other western countries had formed pacts with Nazi Germany, such as the Four-Power Pact, the German-French-Non-Agression Pact, and more. Molotov-Ribbentrop was unique among the non-agression pacts with Nazi Germany in that it was right on the eve of war, and was the first between the USSR and Nazi Germany. It was a last resort, when the west was content from the beginning with working alongside Hitler. Harry Truman, in 1941 in front of the Senate, stated: If we see that Germany is winning we ought to help Russia, and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible, although I don’t want to see Hitler victorious under any circumstances. Not only that, but it was the Soviet Union that was responsible for 4/5ths of total Nazi deaths, and winning the war against the Nazis. The Soviet Union did not agree to invade Poland with the Nazis, it was about spheres of influence and red lines the Nazis should not cross in Poland. When the USSR went into Poland, it stayed mostly to areas Poland had invaded and annexed a few decades prior. Should the Soviets have let Poland get entirely taken over by the Nazis, standing idle? The West made it clear that they were never going to help anyone against the Nazis until it was their turn to be targeted. Churchill did not take the Nazis as a serious threat, and was horrified when FDR and Stalin made a joke about executing Nazis. Churchill starved millions to death in India in preventable ways, and had this to say about it: I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion. The famine was their own fault for breeding like rabbits. Meanwhile, the soviet famine in the 1930s was the last major famine outside of wartime in the USSR, because collectivized farming achieved food security in a region where famine was common. As a consequence, life expectancy doubled: The Nazis and soviets were never allies. A non-aggression pact is not an alliance, and the non-aggression pact between the soviets and the Nazis was unique among the other non-aggression pacts in that it was on the eve of war. The soviets knew war was coming, and so bought more time to prepare. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Edie@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago (1 child) the Red Army would be given free passage through Poland and Romania Poland makes sense, but why Romania? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (8 children) The Soviet Union did not agree to invade Poland with the Nazis, it was about spheres of influence and red lines the Nazis should not cross in Poland. Spheres of influence were not agreements to jointly work together. When the USSR went into Poland, it stayed mostly to areas Poland had invaded and annexed a few decades prior. Should the Soviets have let Poland get entirely taken over by the Nazis, standing idle? The West made it clear that they were never going to help anyone against the Nazis until it was their turn to be targeted. Further, you're ignoring the Munich Agreement, where Czechoslovakia was given to the Nazis by the west. Not only was the west on good terms with the Nazis, signing many non-aggression pacts, they fostered healthy relationships. Finally, the Soviets were reasonably highly suspicious that Britain and Germany would ally. This was not unfounded, both were friendly enough until the outbreak of war. The Soviets desperately needed to make sure that the British and Germans would not ally, which reasonably would have happened had the Soviet Union taken unilateral action against the Nazis, rather than waiting to be attacked first. Stalin was said to have "obsessed over quantitative and qualitative" improvements in arms in the years leading up to World War II, and had soldiers stationed on high alert, preparing for a German attack. Despite the insistence of many Generals to muster forces on the German border, it was Stalin's insistence that forces not be so concentrated that prevented the Nazis from totally routing the Red Army, enabling the greatest counteroffensive in history. Hitler himself was quite honest at times, to himself at least: How can such a primitive people manage such technical achievements in such a short time! ... The fact that Stalin has raised the Russian standard of living is unquestionable. People don’t go hungry [at the moment when Operation Barbarossa was launched]. In general, it’s necessary to recognize that they have built factories of similar importance to Hermann Goering Reichswerke where two years ago nothing but unknown villages existed. We come across railway lines that aren’t even marked on our maps. The Soviets expected and planned for it, they were never allies with the Nazis. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (3 children) The USSR was aware of the defensive pact between the west and Poland, and the west declared war on Germany when they invaded Poland. So you do think that the Soviets shouldn't have entered Poland (after the government had already collapsed to secure the parts of Ukraine Lithuania and Belarus the Poles had occupied in the interwar period) and instead let the Nazis have full reign of the entire country until the Nazis decided to move further east? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) But diplomatic cables reveal that the Germans would not have kept this part of Poland as they intended to uphold the pact with the Soviets So if they didn't sign the pact or had left this request out of it as you seemingly desire they would have taken it wholesale? So again we're back to the Molotov-Ribbentrop saving eastern Poland (actually Western Ukraine Belarus and Lithuania that was simply occupied by Poland) from the Nazi scourge (for a time). Whether you agree on that the Soviets should have signed They absolutely should as the last power to do so allowing the time for them to build up the production capacity necessary cause 80% of the Nazi deaths of the war. It really seems like you would have preferred the Soviets leave Western Belarus Lithuania and Ukraine for dead and do nothing to delay the inevitable war with the Nazis to actually recover to fighting strength post revolution. Maybe that would have been the more pure option but it also would have been suicidal idiocy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 5 months ago (2 children) You're reading the spheres of influence aspect of Molotov-Ribbentrop with hermeneutics of suspicion. The implication on your end is that the Soviets expected the pact to hold, and to split Europe with Nazi Germany. This implies the expectation of a lasting alliance, which is immediately thrown out the window when you see just how much the Soviets were preparing for war against the Nazis, and that the Red Army was specifically told to watch out for German soldiers. Regarding Poland in particular, the Soviet sphere of influence, again, was made up of areas Poland had violently annexed from countries like Lithuania and Ukraine only a couple decades prior. The Soviets did not plan on conquesting Poland, they simply stated that Nazi Germany was not allowed to take former Soviet land. When Poland was invaded by Germany, the state was destroyed, and the Red Army took formerly Lithuanian, Ukrainian, etc areas, sparing them from the Holocaust. Would you want the entirety of Poland to go to the Nazis? Should the USSR have gone to war with Nazi Germany then and there, with the possibility of the west aiding the Nazis to take out the USSR? As for the West, again, you ignore that at the time they were quite honest with wanting to contain the Bolsheviks. They were more than willing to work with the Nazis, America even kept trading with them during the war, and American factories were deliberately not targeted in Nazi Germany even if Nazis were hiding in them. Truman was honest: If we see that Germany is winning we ought to help Russia, and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible, although I don’t want to see Hitler victorious under any circumstances. The whole time in the background, Britain and France were attempting to get the Soviets and Nazis to kill each other off. France spread faulty rumors of a fabricated speech by Stalin wanting to conquest Europe, Britain warned Germany of an impending soviet attack at the same time they warned Russia of Barbarossa, and the Nazis themselves were constantly posturing around either invading Britain, using Crete as a template for naval invasion, or making a deal with them. Before Barbarossa, Rudolf Hess flew to England, drawing the appearance of an impending deal. The entirety of the pre-War period was a tumultuous game of trying to decide what the lines of the war would be. The west made it clear that it hated the Soviets, and the Soviets made it clear that they hated the Nazis, but did not want to risk both the Nazis and the west coming after them, which would have been unwinnable most likely. Nobody could be confused of an actual Soviet-Nazi alliance. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Regarding Poland, again, this was territory Poland had conquered previously that historically belonged to countries in the Soviet Union. This was a return of territory. By no means did it come without bloodshed, but nevertheless the soviets were not nearly the butchers the Nazis were. As for the west conspiring to kill of the Soviet Union, and letting Germany do so, again, I gave naked testimony that this was the case. The Soviet Union wanted above all else to survive, the Nazis wanted new colonial territories, and the west wanted to not get colonized by the Nazis while also wanting the Soviets to stop being socialist. Do you have a source on a British warning to Germany? Wolkow W. K. (2003), Stalin wollte ein anderes Europa. Moskaus Außenpolitik 1940 bis 1968 und die Folgen, Edition Ost, Berlin, p. 110. The British warnings to the USSR were sadly ignored; Stalin did not order the Red Army to get ready for an invasion, which was partially why the first few months of the war went so disastrously poorly for the Soviets. I already explained this earlier. There was a massivedisinformation campaign, with feints from both Germany and the western powers. The first few weeks went as everyone expected, the Nazis advanced quickly over largely open land until running face to face with the full industrialized might of the Red Army. Goebbels' diary is quite telling of the change in attitude. On the 22nd-23rd of June, the Nazis attacked confidently. On July 2nd, Goebbels wrote the following: Overall, the fighting is hard and stubborn. We can in no way speak of a walk in the park. The red regime has mobilized the people. July 24th: We can have no doubt whatsoever about the fact that the Bolshevik regime, which has existed for nearly a quarter of a century, has left a deep mark on the peoples of the Soviet Union […]. It would be right, therefore, if we clearly informed the German people about the harshness of the struggle taking place in the East. The nation must be told that this operation is very difficult, but that we can and will survive it. August 1st: At the Führer’s headquarters […] they also openly admit that they were somewhat mistaken in their assessment of Soviet fighting power. The Bolsheviks are showing stronger resistance than we expected, and above all the material means at their disposal are greater than we had anticipated. August 9th: Privately, the Führer is very displeased for having allowed himself to be so deceived about the potential of the Bolsheviks by the reports [sent by German agents] coming from the Soviet Union. In particular, the underestimation of the enemy’s tanks and aircraft caused a great deal of trouble for our military operations. He suffers a lot because of this. We’re dealing with a serious crisis […]. The previous campaigns were a walk in the park by comparison […]. The Führer is not worried about the West […]. In our German thoroughness and objectivity we have always overestimated the enemy, except, in this case, the Bolsheviks. September 16th: We have totally underestimated the strength of the Bolsheviks. This was not a walk in the park for the Nazis, because the Soviets planned for it. Modern historiography makes it quite clear that the Nazis and Soviets were never allies in any capacity, for any length of time, and were always conspiring against each other with no expectation of actual peace, just biding their time before what they desired to be a favorable start to war. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago Regarding Poland, no, the Soviets were not worse. The Nazis subjected the Polish to the holocaust, and was committed to exterminating millions of Poles. One historian saying "in many ways, the soviets were worse" doesn't even mean the soviets were worse in total, yet that's the implication you bring. Historical evidence backs up that the Nazi colonization of Poland was a prototype for the Nazi colonization of the Soviets. As for Stalin and preparation for Barbarossa, again, reports conflicted. The Soviets knew that the Nazis were going to eventually invade, which is why Stalin had the Red Army prepare for German invasion. It wasn't that Stalin didn't mobilize the Red Army, it's that Stalin refused to muster forces on the border, which was exactly what the Nazis wanted. The Nazis wanted to quickly route the Red Army and march straight to Moscow relatively unopposed, instead they ran through largely empty, wide-open land quickly, before running into extreme resistance. If you don't trust Goebbels, there's plenty of other testemonies from Nazi officials, such as General Fedor von Bock in late July: The enemy seeks to recapture Smolensk at all costs and is constantly sending in new forces. The theory expressed by some that the enemy acts without plans is not reflected in the facts […]. We’ve verified that the Russians have brought up across the front a new and compact deployment of forces. In many areas they seek to go on the offensive. It’s surprising for an adversary which suffered so many blows; they must possess an unbelievable amount of resources, in fact our troops still lament the power of the enemy artillery. Here's an excerpt from Domenico Losurdo's book on Stalin: Long read as an example of political-military ignorance or even blind trust in the Third Reich, the extremely cautious approach taken by Stalin in the weeks leading up to the outbreak of hostilities now appears in an entirely different light: “The relatively open concentration of Wehrmacht forces along the Soviet border, the violations of Soviet airspace and numerous other provocations had only a single purpose: to draw the main forces of the Red Army as close to the border as possible. Hitler wanted to win the war in one gigantic battle.” Even valiant generals were enticed by this trap. Expecting an onslaught, they insisted on a massive relocation of troops toward the border. However, “Stalin categorically rejected this demand, insisting on the need to maintain large-scale reserves at a considerable distance from any conceivable front line.” After the war, studying the material left behind by the German architects of Operation Barbarossa, marshall Georgy K. Zhukov recognized the correctness of the line pursued by Stalin: “Hitler’s command was counting on us bringing our main forces up to the border with the intention of surrounding and destroying them.” Now, you may say that Zhukov was simply trying to play the political line. However, it's abundantly clear that this is in fact exactly how it played out. The rapid conquest of largely open land was met with a rapid counteroffensive that placed the Nazis in a dreadful stalemate, and eventually a legendary counterattack. Had Stalin listened to his generals, it's likely they would have played into the Nazi's plans. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 16 points 5 months ago* (2 children) The purges were a popularly supported response to genuine threats and infiltration. They were not a misunderstanding, but they did exceed initial expectations, which is why they were stopped. As for Hitler (and the rest of the fascist movement), the Soviets (Stalin included) absolutely despised him. That's why the Soviets spent the 1930s ramping up industrial production as quickly as they could, and trying to form an anti-fascist coalition with the west (which the British and French tanked). Stalin was said to have "obsessed over quantitative and qualitative" improvements in arms in the years leading up to World War II, and had soldiers stationed on high alert, preparing for a German attack. Despite the insistence of many Generals to muster forces on the German border, it was Stalin's insistence that forces not be so concentrated that prevented the Nazis from totally routing the Red Army, enabling the greatest counteroffensive in history. Hitler himself was quite honest at times, to himself at least: How can such a primitive people manage such technical achievements in such a short time! ... The fact that Stalin has raised the Russian standard of living is unquestionable. People don’t go hungry [at the moment when Operation Barbarossa was launched]. In general, it’s necessary to recognize that they have built factories of similar importance to Hermann Goering Reichswerke where two years ago nothing but unknown villages existed. We come across railway lines that aren’t even marked on our maps. Statesian journalist and activist Anna Louise Strong actually met and spoke with Stalin, writing down her impressions: My first impression of him was vaguely disappointing. A stocky figure in a simple suit of khaki color, direct, unassuming, whose first concern was to know whether I understood Russian sufficiently to take part in discussion. Not very imposing for so great a man, I thought. Then we sat down rather casually, and Stalin was not even at the head of the table; Voroshilov was. Stalin took a place where he could see all our faces and started the talk by a pointed question to the man against whom I had complained. After that Stalin seemed to become a sort of background, against which other people’s comments went on. The brilliant wit of Kaganovich, the cheerful chuckle of Voroshilov, the characteristics of the lesser people called to consult, all suddenly stood out. I began to understand them all and like them; I even began to understand the editor against whom I had complained. Suddenly I myself was talking and getting my facts out faster and more clearly than I ever did in my life. People seemed to agree with me. Everything got to the point very fast and smoothly, with Stalin saying less than anyone. Afterward in thinking it over I realized how Stalin’s genius for listening helped each of us express ourselves and understand the others. I recalled his trick of repeating a word of mine either with questioning intonation or a slight emphasis, which suddenly made me feel I had either not quite seen the point or perhaps had overstated it, and so drove me to make it plainer. I recalled how he had done this to others also. Then I understood that his listening has been a dynamic force. This listening habit dates back to the early days of his revolutionary career. “I remember him very well from the early days of our Party,” said a veteran Bolshevik to me. “A quiet youth who sat at the edge of the committee, saying almost nothing, but listening very much. Toward the end he would make a few comments, sometimes merely as questions. Gradually we came to see that he always summed up best our joint thinking.” The description will be recognized by anyone who ever met Stalin. In any group he is usually last to express his opinion. He does not want to block the full expression of others, as he might easily do by speaking first. Besides this, he is always learning by listening. I highly recommended the book Stalin: History and Critique of a Black Legend by legendary communist Domenico Losurdo. Losurdo's unique method in the book is to use near-exclusively western, anti-communist sources, including Goebbels, Hitler, the New York Times, and so forth to examine not just Stalin, but to explain why Stalin is both so hated and yet so loved. It's a critique of the legend surrounding Stalin. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Hadriscus@jlai.lu 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Thanks for the references permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 5 months ago No problem! permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 16 points 5 months ago (8 children) doesn’t believe in authoritarianism. Authoritarian is a meaningless pejorative. All states/countries/political groups etc. must be authoritarian by necessity in class society. For heaven’s sake, his own guards were scared of him. In fact, he died because he instilled so much fear into them. Major citation needed. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) Sankara is just as "tankie" as Stalin, Castro, Mao, Huey P. Newton, etc. The difference is that he was killed before Burkina Faso really had a chance to develop socialism, and as such his name hasn't been dragged through the mud. Regarding Stalin, there are several books I can recommend, but I'll pick just one. Stalin: The History and Critique of a Black Legend by Domenico Losurdo. Also not sure what you mean by saying you don't "believe in class society." What does this mean? Do you deny the existence of wage laborers and capitalists, or do you deny that classes have similar interests and philosophies that come more naturally based on how we live? Either way, we all love Sankara. Just because we disagree with bourgeois historiography on socialist leaders does not mean we don't also appreciate the ones that bourgeois historiography has largely left alone. permalink fedilink source parent [–] TiredTiger@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago You may not believe in classes, but that doesn't negate their existence. We will continue to support AES states (current and those sadly no longer extant). Go advocate for utopianism somewhere else. permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago someone more classy like Thomas Sankara. Aka someone who dies before they can be effectively vilified Western Marxism, the Fetish for Defeat, and Christian Culture (2020): https://redsails.org/western-marxism-and-christianity/ permalink fedilink source parent [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 16 points 5 months ago I don’t even believe in a class society. You don't think classes exist? Or you think it's possible to abolish classes at the press of a button without any transitionary phase? Either way this is idiotic. more classy like Thomas Sankara. Leader who believes the things I believe (Marxism Leninism) but was assassinated before the consolidation of the workers state began. You should probably investigate subjects before you speak on them. have several articles I can cite, but I’ll use this one because it jumps straight to the point. This site won't load but from dealing with them previously I vaguely remember them as a liberal nonsense publisher however if you can provide an archive link or equivalent I can give my proper views on this article in particular. permalink fedilink source parent [+] ordnance_qf_17_pounder@reddthat.com 7 points 5 months ago (3 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] culprit@lemmy.ml 7 points 5 months ago According to the journalist Sennen Andriamirado, who wrote two early books on Sankara, the Burkinabè leader believed that “Stalin killed Leninism by stifling the soviets and making all-powerful the Cheka [secret police], the military,” and other repressive bodies. Hmm, I wonder if protecting the socialist leadership was a factor in this. Too bad he got assassinated, proving that using state power to oppose the reactionary forces is critically important in a nascent socialist state. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) The majority of people who lived in Eastern European socialism regret its fall. The USSR had no colonies, it was an anti-imperialist, de-colonial federation. Sankara learned from Stalin, and was a Marxist-Leninist. Finally, equating Hitler and Stalin equates fascism with socialism, which originated as a form of Holocaust trivialization called Double Genocide Theory. I recommend reading Domenico Losurdo's Towards a Critique of the Category of Totalitarianism. permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 7 points 5 months ago* For example, Thomas Sankara was an actual decent person That's cool that being nice is the ceiling of revolutionary possibility in your brutally constrained mind, but the Chinese Communists did this: permalink fedilink source parent [–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 19 points 5 months ago* (19 children) I'm leftist doesn't believe in authoritarianism Read Engels https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm Stalin wasn’t a good leader Excerpt from Stalin - the History and Critique of a Black Legend by Domenico LosurdoImpressive demonstrations of grief accompanied Stalin's passing. In his death throes, “millions of people crowded the center of Moscow to pay their last respects” to the dying leader. On March 5th, 1953, “millions of citizens cried over his loss as if they were mourning for a loved one."1 The same reaction took place in the most remote corners of this enormous country, for example, in a “small village” that, as soon as it learned of what had happened, fell into spontaneous and collective mourning.2 The generalized consternation went beyond the borders of the USSR: “Many cried as they passed through the streets of Budapest and Prague."3 Thousands of kilometers away from the socialist camp, in Israel the sorrowful reaction was also widespread: “All members of MAPAM, without exception, cried”, and this was a party in which “all the veteran leaders” and “nearly all the ex-combatants” belonged to. The suffering was mixed with fear. “The sun has set” was the title of Al Hamishmar, the newspaper of the Kibbutz movement. For a certain amount of time, such sentiments were shared by leading figures of the state and military apparatus: “Ninety officers who had participated in the 1948 war, the great war of Jewish independence, joined a clandestine armed organization that was pro-Soviet and revolutionary. Of these, eleven later became generals and one became a government minister, and are now honored as the founding fathers of Israel."4 In the West, it’s not just leaders and members of communist parties with ties to the Soviet Union who pay homage to the deceased leader. One historian (Isaac Deutscher) who was a fierce admirer of Trotsky, wrote an obituary full of acknowledgements: After three decades, the face of the Soviet Union has been completely transformed. What’s essential to Stalinism’s historical actions is this: it found a Russia that worked the land with wooden plows and left it as the owner of the atomic bomb. It elevated Russia to the rank of the second industrial power in the world, and it’s not merely a question of material progress and organization. A similar result could not have been achieved without a great cultural revolution in which an entire country has been sent to school to receive an extensive education. In summary, despite conditioned and in part disfigured by the Asiatic and despotic legacy of Tsarist Russia, in Stalin’s USSR “the socialist ideal has an innate and solid integrity.” In this historical evaluation there was no longer a place for Trotsky’s harsh accusations directed at the deceased leader. What sense was there in condemning Stalin as a traitor to the ideals of world revolution and as the capitulationist theorist of socialism in one country, at a time in which the new social order had expanded in Europe and in Asia and had broken “its national shell”?5 Ridiculed by Trotsky as a “small provincial man thrust into great world events, as if by a joke of history”,6 in 1950 Stalin had become, in the opinion of an illustrious philosopher (Alexandre Kojève), the incarnation of the Hegelian spirit of the world and called upon to unify and lead humanity, resorting to energetic methods, in practice combining wisdom and tyranny.7 Outside communist circles, or the communist aligned left, despite the escalating Cold War and the continued hot war in Korea, Stalin’s death brought out largely “respectful” or “balanced” obituaries in the West. At that time, “he was still considered a relatively benign dictator and even a statesman, and in the popular consciousness the affectionate memory of “uncle Joe” persisted, the great war-time leader that had guided his people to victory over Hitler and had helped save Europe from Nazi barbarity."8 The ideas, impressions and emotions of the years of the Grand Alliance hadn’t yet vanished, when―Deutscher recalled in 1948―statesmen and foreign generals were won over by the exceptional competence with which Stalin managed all the details of his war machine."9 Included among the figures “won over” was the man who, in his time, supported military intervention against the country that emerged out of the October Revolution, namely Winston Churchill, who with regards to Stalin had repeatedly expressed himself in these terms: “I like that man."10 On the occasion of the Tehran Conference in November, 1943, the British statesman had praised his Soviet counterpart as “Stalin the Great”: he was a worthy heir to Peter the Great; having saved his country, preparing it to defeat the invaders.11 Certain aspects had also fascinated Averell Harriman, the American ambassador to Moscow between 1943 and 1946, who always positively painted the Soviet leader with regard to military matters: “He appears to me better informed than Roosevelt and more realistic than Hitler, to a certain degree he’s the most efficient war leader."12 In 1944 Alcide De Gasperi had expressed himself in almost emphatic terms, having celebrated “the historic, secular and immense merit of the armies organized by the genius, Joseph Stalin." The recognition from the eminent Italian politician isn’t merely limited to the military sphere: When I see Hitler and Mussolini persecute men for their race, and invent that terrible anti-Jewish legislation that we’re familiar with, and when I see how the Russians, made up of 160 different races, seek their fusion, overcoming the existing differences between Asia and Europe, this attempt, this effort toward the unification of human society, let me just say that this is the work of a Christian, this is eminently universalistic in the Catholic sense.13 No less powerful or uncommon was the prestige that Stalin had enjoyed, and continued enjoying, among the great intellectuals. Harold J. Laski, a prestigious supporter of the British Labour Party, speaking in the fall of 1945 with Norberto Bobbio, had declared himself an “admirer of the Soviet Union” and its leader, describing him as someone who is “very wise."14 In that same year, Hannah Arendt wrote that the country led by Stalin distinguished itself for the “completely new and successful way of facing and solving national conflicts, of organizing different peoples on the basis of national equality”; it was a type of model, it was something “that every political and national movement should pay attention to."15 For his part, writing just before and soon after the end of World War II, Benedetto Croce recognized Stalin’s merit in having promoted freedom not only at the international level, thanks to the contribution given to the struggle against Nazi-fascism, but also in his own country. Indeed, who led the USSR was “a man gifted with political genius”, who carried out an important and positive historical role overall; with respect to pre-revolutionary Russia, “Sovietism has been an advance for freedom, just as, “in relation to the feudal regime”, the absolute monarchy was also “an advance for freedom and resulted in the greater advances that followed." The liberal philosopher’s doubts were focused on the future of the Soviet Union; however, these same doubts, by contrast, further highlighted the greatness of Stalin: he had taken the place of Lenin, in such a way that a genius had been followed by another, but what sort of successors would be given to the USSR by “Providence”?16 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 18 points 5 months ago (18 children) You understand so little you would likely have to unlearn effectively everything you "know" to even approach 0 understanding. I’m also finding it a little bit suspicious that Chinese people–whom are propping up the USSR–are replying to me. Fuck you first of all you massively racist fucking loser. You don't get to be suspicious whitey. For the record, China is still capitalist, Maybe, if you have no fucking idea what capitalism, socialism or communism actually mean. Hell, are Chinese people even legally allowed to use Lemmy? Not understanding the firewall award. Actual Gulag survivors have told stories about how horrific it was to be in those camps, too. Gulag archipelago reader award. (A book so terribly it's been disavowed by everyone involved bar the main author) Chinese cruelty toward the Uyghurs? Depends do you mean the real issues that occured during the crackdown on ETIM or the Zenz/US state department fantasy. Or the children working in factories and producing carcinogenic products for Shein for next to no money? Views stuck decades in the past award. What about the Tianamen square massacre? Categorically not a massacre but a clash between violent rioters and the military acting as riot police at the time, also funnily enough none of the violence was actually in the square. greenwash I don't think you know what this word means The West is pretty evil, but let’s not greenwash the USSR or China. "My country is evil and constantly lies but I also believe everything they say about their ideological enemies" permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 18 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 months ago (2 children) I do agree that we could learn from China, but there's also a damn good reason why their phones are banned in multiple countries. Yes, because the US started a trade war with them because they can't compete (in EVs also), and a few of their vassal states followed suit. Considering that China is known for its heavy censorship and is in good cahoots with Russia Sources on this? The PRC only blocks western surveillance platforms because they're incredibly dangerous to let them loose in your country. They're one of the few countries not naive enough to let facebook and google take over their social media landscape. https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/main/socialism_faq.md#what-about-the-tiananmen-square-massacre permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 13 points 5 months ago I banned after this, reading further down and seeing them get more and more virulently racist. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago Selling products is not capitalism by itself. Capitalism is a system where private ownership is the principal aspect, and capitalists control the state. Socialism, on the other hand, is a system where public ownership is principal, and the working classes control the state. The backbone and commanding heights of China's economy are publicly owned, and the working classes control the state, ergo it is socialist. Billionaires exist because private property exists, and private property exists because it speeds up development and integrates China with the global economy. This is a tradeoff used to build up the productive forces as quickly as possible, so that the social surplus can be redirected to developing underdeveloped regions, and because developed industry is easier to publicly own and plan. As these private firms grow, they are more tightly controlled and/or folded into the public sector. Average working hours in China are 46 hours per week, not 75. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 14 points 5 months ago In china, the state controls capital. In America, capital controls the state permalink fedilink source parent [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 17 points 5 months ago (3 children) I wrote a more direct reply to this, but I have come to realise that in this situation it would most likely be unproductive. You appear to be a very new leftist of some description: you seem to like the idea of socialism or communism, but you do not yet seem to have a firm grasp of what they actually entail. So instead of arguing point by point, I am going to explain what socialism is, why China has been socialist since 1949, and then add some book and article recommendations so you can begin studying the question more seriously on your own. To start, we have to define a term that is commonly used but rarely properly understood: the state. Many people use “the state” and “the government” interchangeably, but this is not accurate. The state is specifically the organised force by which class antagonisms are mediated through the rule of one class over others. The government, on the other hand, broadly refers to the administration, coordination, planning, record-keeping, infrastructure management, public decision-making, and the organisation of social production required by advanced societies. This distinction will be important later. Next, it is important to define socialism. Socialism is the transitionary period between capitalism and communism. It still contains many contradictions inherited from capitalism: classes, class struggle, uneven development, commodity production, wages, bureaucracy, ideological struggle, and often limited market mechanisms. Socialism is not “when everything is already communist.” It is the period in which the proletariat holds political power and uses that power to transform society, develop the productive forces, suppress reaction, and gradually overcome the material basis of class society. This stands in contrast to communism, where class society has been abolished as a meaningful social reality. Communism is classless because there are no longer opposed classes standing in antagonistic relation to one another (as only a single class, the proletariat, remain after the other classes have been proletarianised during the socialist period). It is stateless because, once class antagonisms have disappeared, the state as an instrument of class rule no longer has a function and withers away. This of course does not mean that organisation, administration, planning, or collective decision-making (the government) disappear. It means that the coercive state as an instrument of class domination disappears. At this point you might ask: if contradictions remain under socialism, how is it different from capitalism? That is a reasonable question. The answer rests on one primary and one secondary characteristic. The primary question is: which class commands the state? Under socialism, the proletariat commands the state through the people’s democratic dictatorship, also called the dictatorship of the proletariat. Under capitalism, the bourgeoisie commands the state, which communists refer to as the dictatorship of capital (even if they have a liberal democratic cascade). The secondary question is: which mode of ownership holds primacy, public ownership or private ownership? This is secondary because public ownership under the dictatorship of capital functions as state capitalism, while public ownership under the dictatorship of the proletariat is part of socialist construction. Ownership forms matter, but they cannot be separated from the class character of political power. Now, with this groundwork laid, we can finally look properly at the Chinese situation. China has been socialist since October 1, 1949, because the old landlord-bureaucrat-comprador state was destroyed and replaced by a people’s democratic dictatorship led by the working class through the Communist Party. The Communist Party of China has more than 100 million members as of the end of 2024 (slightly over 1/14 people). The commanding heights of the economy were brought under public ownership and workers state direction. The new state was built to suppress reaction, defend sovereignty, develop the productive forces, and transform society. In China, the bourgeoisie still exists, but it does not rule as a class. Capitalists can own firms in non-commanding sectors, make profits, and accumulate wealth within limits, because developing the productive forces still serves necessary social goals at China’s current stage of development. But they do not command the state, the army, the land system, the central banking system, or the strategic direction of the economy. They do not stand above the people or above the people's organised political instrument, the Communist Party, as a sovereign power. When capital conflicts with the long-term interests of socialist construction, it is disciplined, subordinated, investigated, broken up, fined, or otherwise brought to heel. Jack Ma and Ant Group is a useful example: its $37 billion IPO was suspended in 2020 and Jack Ma was made step away from public life as he attempted to put his profit before the benefits of the people by pushing for loosening banking regulations so he could provide micro loans. Foreign capitalists spent years crying about this as it showed the truth capital holds no power in China. To put it briefly: China is socialist because the proletarian-led state holds political power, commands the strategic economy, subordinates capital to national and social development, suppresses reactionary threats, and continues the long transition out of capitalism under conditions of imperialist encirclement, uneven development, and a still-existing world capitalist system. It would also be remiss not to mention that much of what you “know” about China has been manufactured through a mix of exaggeration, selective framing, omission, and outright lies. For example, you have likely heard about “996” as if it represents Chinese labour law or the normal working life of the whole country. In reality, 996 was an issue in ~40 of the large tech firms around the 2019 tech boom and was quickly ruled illegal which it now has been for half a decade. For a proper explanation on how this kind of ideological manufacture happens, I would recommend reading Michael Parenti’s Inventing Reality. Further reading recommendations: I have to a plug @Cowbee@lemmy.ml and their beginner reading list But for my recommendations more directly related to the topic at hand I would recommend: Engels: The Principles of Communism Marx and Engels: The Communist Manifesto Engels: Socialism: Utopian and Scientific Marx: Wage Labour and Capital Marx: Value, Price and Profit Marx: Critique of the Gotha Programme Lenin: The State and Revolution Lenin: The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade Kautsky Lenin: Left-Wing Communism: An Infantile Disorder Lenin: Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism Stalin: Foundations of Leninism Stalin: Economic Problems of Socialism in the USSR Mao Zedong: On Practice Mao Zedong: On Contradiction Mao Zedong: On the Correct Handling of Contradictions Among the People Mao Zedong: On New Democracy Mao Zedong: Report on an Investigation of the Peasant Movement in Hunan Mao Zedong: On Protracted War Deng Xiaoping: Build Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Deng Xiaoping: We Must Follow Our Own Road in Economic Development Xi Jinping: Uphold and Develop Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Xi Jinping: The Governance of China Roland Boer: Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Rong Zhaozi: Productivity, Public Capital, and Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Carlos Martinez: The East Is Still Red: Chinese Socialism in the 21st Century Roderic Day: China Has Billionaires Michael Parenti: Blackshirts and Reds Michael Parenti: Inventing Reality Walter Rodney: How Europe Underdeveloped Africa Kwame Nkrumah: Neo-Colonialism: The Last Stage of Imperialism Vijay Prashad: Washington Bullets J. Sakai: Settlers: The Mythology of the White Proletariat I understand having such a long list dumped on you is likely off-putting however that's the unfortunate truth of being a real socialist/communist, constant reading, education and investigation is a must. If you have any specific questions on any of them I can try help you if need be. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 17 points 5 months ago (1 child) Excellent write-up I'd like to point to one thing though China has been socialist since October 1, 1949, because the old landlord-bureaucrat-comprador state was destroyed and replaced by a people’s democratic dictatorship led by the working class through the Communist Party. This doesn't mean anything to a westerner. What westerners hear is "The communist party officials presume/claim to speak in the interest of the working class with no direct input from them". Since this is what almost every party in the west has done since parliaments became a thing. The ones that didn't aren't included in textbooks. And since you're speaking positively of such a party you must be "shilling" for them. I know adding the "how" of how workers shape and influence the state would make your comment even longer, but as it is to most it's just an unbelievable, meaningless phrase. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 months ago Yeah I 100% agree but also felt that it was long enough that it was 50/50 they'd actually read past the first few lines anyway so I could clarify in any follow-ups if they did and if they didn't then it was fine as is anyway. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 13 points 5 months ago Thanks for the shoutout, and excellent comment as always! permalink fedilink source parent [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) How does the firewall work if you don't mind me asking? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (6 children) Just to clarify given the context do you mean the how as in the actual mechanism or the why it was put in place etc? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (5 children) Probably how it works. To my understanding it was put in place to keep out western companies and media preying upon people? But I'm honestly very ignorant on most of this permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (4 children) On how it works: It’s effectively an IP/domain/protocol blacklist. So if you break the rules for example by refusing to host Chinese user data on servers in China as is required by law you get out on the list and your site is blocked. Other things blocked are domains commonly used for spam e.g. .ml is blocked by the firewall as it was a free domain commonly used for spam. So I'm using a VPN as all .ml sites are blocked (as far as I'm aware, there might be some who petitioned their way off but I don't know) On why it was put in place: The firewall was created to foster and protect China’s fledgling digital infrastructure and data sovereignty. Many countries regulate foreign platforms and data flows. China built its own ecosystem instead of depending on foreign companies. We have seen what happens when foreign platforms operate without local oversight: Facebook facilitating genocide in Myanmar, coordinated anti-vax disinformation campaigns in Southeast Asia, algorithm-driven radicalization, etc. The firewall makes those kinds of external influence operations harder or close to impossible to run at scale. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) Thank you for the explanation! Does it also keep information from China getting to other places? Or is that more of the corpos and other countries keeping China's news and what not out of Western spaces? I find it very hard to find things out of rare cases like when I was on Red Note for a bit. I wasn't sure if the firewall had anything to do with that or if its more western influences, or a bit of both? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago (2 children) No the firewall is one-way generally speaking. The fact foreign news agencys need a license to report in China probably doesn't help but it is almost entirely down to the fact that corpos and the countries they own don't actually want to report factual information about China and much prefer NED funded NGOs and but at what cost speculation about whatever China announces. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Ah okay. Thank you so much for the information! I really appreciate it! permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago O7 permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] eldavi@lemmy.ml 19 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) im presuming that you're presenting yourself i good faith and you sound like me not long ago; i want to share something that's been helpful in dispelling the inception like nature of sources from the western that likely gave you this conclusion: For heaven’s sake, his own guards were scared of him. In fact, he died because he instilled so much fear into them. Personally, I’m more of a collectivist who doesn’t believe in authoritarianism. (i know that you're getting this from a western source because you used the word authoritarian). the freedom of information act, passed in the 1960s, forces the us government to release files -- like they released the epstein files -- where the cia, fbi, state dept, etc. admit in writing that they make shit up. you have to wait at least 25 years after the event, but you can already read some files -- just like people are reading the epstein files rn -- of shit they made up about north korea being “authoritarian.” (you can even see how they chose that word). but the key part is that they admit to lying to us about north korea’s authoritarianism. so if your source calls north korea authoritarian, know the us government invented that in the 1950s, was forced by law to admit the lie to the public in the 1970s and that any source still pushing this narrative can’t be trusted. you're never going to be a leftist if you don't question your own sources. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] brynden_rivers_esq@lemmy.ca 17 points 5 months ago (7 children) On Authority is a pointed response to the thought-terminating pejorative of “authoritarian.” If you haven’t read it, you should! It’s short and important =) You want a change in society? You don’t care that fascists don’t want that change? Then you’re an authoritarian. Everything after that is a matter of degree. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago (4 children) The CIA, in an internal memo never meant to be released, made it clear that Stalin was not a dictator and that leadership was collective. The USSR brought dramatic democratization to society. First-hand accounts from Statesian journalist Anna Louise Strong in her book This Soviet World describe soviet elections and factory councils in action. Statesian Pat Sloan even wrote Soviet Democracy to describe in detail the system the soviets had built for curious Statesians to read about. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Aralakh@lemmy.ca 6 points 5 months ago (3 children) From the CIA memo, what does "the MVD" stand for? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Edie@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago (2 children) Ministry of Internal Affairs, successor to the NKVD (Peoples Commissariat) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Aralakh@lemmy.ca 6 points 5 months ago Thank you! permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 5 months ago Beat me to it! permalink fedilink source parent [–] brynden_rivers_esq@lemmy.ca 8 points 5 months ago If you’re willing to do something about that wish, then you’re an authoritarian too. And FWIW, casting it in personal terms makes that wish tautological. No one wishes for a system where they have to cater to the whims of someone else. I’m sure you meant to say “no one has to cater to anyone else’s whims,” and that’s all well and good. Still authoritarian if you’re willing to see anything at all done to overcome the desires of the powerful to maintain the status quo (and in case it’s not obvious, that’s a good thing to be authoritarian about). permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago (4 children) The CIA, in an internal memo never meant to be released, made it clear that Stalin was not a dictator and that leadership was collective. The USSR brought dramatic democratization to society. First-hand accounts from Statesian journalist Anna Louise Strong in her book This Soviet World describe soviet elections and factory councils in action. Statesian Pat Sloan even wrote Soviet Democracy to describe in detail the system the soviets had built for curious Statesians to read about. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Aralakh@lemmy.ca 6 points 5 months ago (3 children) From the CIA memo, what does "the MVD" stand for? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Edie@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago (2 children) Ministry of Internal Affairs, successor to the NKVD (Peoples Commissariat) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Aralakh@lemmy.ca 6 points 5 months ago Thank you! permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 5 months ago Beat me to it! permalink fedilink source parent [–] brynden_rivers_esq@lemmy.ca 8 points 5 months ago If you’re willing to do something about that wish, then you’re an authoritarian too. And FWIW, casting it in personal terms makes that wish tautological. No one wishes for a system where they have to cater to the whims of someone else. I’m sure you meant to say “no one has to cater to anyone else’s whims,” and that’s all well and good. Still authoritarian if you’re willing to see anything at all done to overcome the desires of the powerful to maintain the status quo (and in case it’s not obvious, that’s a good thing to be authoritarian about). permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago (4 children) The CIA, in an internal memo never meant to be released, made it clear that Stalin was not a dictator and that leadership was collective. The USSR brought dramatic democratization to society. First-hand accounts from Statesian journalist Anna Louise Strong in her book This Soviet World describe soviet elections and factory councils in action. Statesian Pat Sloan even wrote Soviet Democracy to describe in detail the system the soviets had built for curious Statesians to read about. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Aralakh@lemmy.ca 6 points 5 months ago (3 children) From the CIA memo, what does "the MVD" stand for? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Edie@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago (2 children) Ministry of Internal Affairs, successor to the NKVD (Peoples Commissariat) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Aralakh@lemmy.ca 6 points 5 months ago Thank you! permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 5 months ago Beat me to it! permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Aralakh@lemmy.ca 6 points 5 months ago (3 children) From the CIA memo, what does "the MVD" stand for? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Edie@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago (2 children) Ministry of Internal Affairs, successor to the NKVD (Peoples Commissariat) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Aralakh@lemmy.ca 6 points 5 months ago Thank you! permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 5 months ago Beat me to it! permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Edie@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago (2 children) Ministry of Internal Affairs, successor to the NKVD (Peoples Commissariat) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Aralakh@lemmy.ca 6 points 5 months ago Thank you! permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 5 months ago Beat me to it! permalink fedilink source parent
[–] brynden_rivers_esq@lemmy.ca 8 points 5 months ago If you’re willing to do something about that wish, then you’re an authoritarian too. And FWIW, casting it in personal terms makes that wish tautological. No one wishes for a system where they have to cater to the whims of someone else. I’m sure you meant to say “no one has to cater to anyone else’s whims,” and that’s all well and good. Still authoritarian if you’re willing to see anything at all done to overcome the desires of the powerful to maintain the status quo (and in case it’s not obvious, that’s a good thing to be authoritarian about). permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 21 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (20 children) This isn't really true. Stalin was often described as a quiet listener in collective meetings, and was widely beloved. He developed a cult of personality against his own wishes, due to leading the country successfully during its most chaotic and desparate periods. This happens to all leaders in such situations, FDR was almost revered as a god in the US. Stalin turned down awards like the Hero of the Soviet Union, and refused to change Marxism-Leninism to Marxism-Leninism-Stalinism, essentially equating his own contributions (particularly on the national question and linguistics) to an extremely minor aspect compared to Marx and Lenin. Khrushchev, in trying to cement his position, tried to attack each part of Stalin's legacy. His staunch dedication to preparing for World War II, his careful contemplation of the National question as one of the foremost theorists on it within the realm of Marxism, and as someone who detested undue praise. Khrushchev flipped each of these on their heads without base (such as suggesting Stalin planned front line battles on a globe), and instead of killing the cult of personality, turned it into a negative cult of personality and created a total nihilism for the prospects of building socialism. I highly recommend Domenico Losurdo's How to Cast a God into Hell: The Khrushchev Report. As Weng Weiguang wrote, The Evaluation of Stalin is Essentially an Ideological Struggle. Repudiating Stalin is less about the historical figure and more about what was accomplished during his service. Demonizing Stalin demonizes the soviet union during its major industrialization, and therefore demonizes the most critical era for socialism in advancing on what came before. In clearing Stalin's name, we clear the record of socialism historically, proving it can, did, and does work definitively. This isn't wasted effort, but is absolutely critical, especially as the demonized visage of Stalin is used as a club to beat Marxists and anti-imperialists in general (even non-Marxists!). permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 20 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 20 points 5 months ago (15 children) good friend to that big bad Hitler guy. This is a children's cartoon-ass story that falls apart at the slightest investigation. 80% of dead nazis died on the eastern front. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Bloomcole@lemmy.world 12 points 5 months ago People who believe that fascists, whose aim and total reason of being was to combat communism would be partners with them. That is just embarrassing permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 18 points 5 months ago (12 children) The communists were never allies with the Nazis. A non-aggression pact is not an alliance. The communists spent the decade prior trying to form an anti-Nazi coalition force, such as the Anglo-French-Soviet Alliance which was pitched by the communists and rejected by the British and French. The communists hated the Nazis from the beginning, as the Nazi party rose to prominence by killing communists and labor organizers, cemented bourgeois rule, and was violently racist and imperialist, while the communists opposed all of that. When the many talks of alliances with the west all fell short, the Soviets reluctantly agreed to sign a non-agression pact, in order to delay the coming war that everyone knew was happening soon. Throughout the last decade, Britain, France, and other western countries had formed pacts with Nazi Germany, such as the Four-Power Pact, the German-French-Non-Agression Pact, and more. Molotov-Ribbentrop was unique among the non-agression pacts with Nazi Germany in that it was right on the eve of war, and was the first between the USSR and Nazi Germany. It was a last resort, when the west was content from the beginning with working alongside Hitler. Harry Truman, in 1941 in front of the Senate, stated: If we see that Germany is winning we ought to help Russia, and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible, although I don’t want to see Hitler victorious under any circumstances. Not only that, but it was the Soviet Union that was responsible for 4/5ths of total Nazi deaths, and winning the war against the Nazis. The Soviet Union did not agree to invade Poland with the Nazis, it was about spheres of influence and red lines the Nazis should not cross in Poland. When the USSR went into Poland, it stayed mostly to areas Poland had invaded and annexed a few decades prior. Should the Soviets have let Poland get entirely taken over by the Nazis, standing idle? The West made it clear that they were never going to help anyone against the Nazis until it was their turn to be targeted. Churchill did not take the Nazis as a serious threat, and was horrified when FDR and Stalin made a joke about executing Nazis. Churchill starved millions to death in India in preventable ways, and had this to say about it: I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion. The famine was their own fault for breeding like rabbits. Meanwhile, the soviet famine in the 1930s was the last major famine outside of wartime in the USSR, because collectivized farming achieved food security in a region where famine was common. As a consequence, life expectancy doubled: The Nazis and soviets were never allies. A non-aggression pact is not an alliance, and the non-aggression pact between the soviets and the Nazis was unique among the other non-aggression pacts in that it was on the eve of war. The soviets knew war was coming, and so bought more time to prepare. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Edie@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago (1 child) the Red Army would be given free passage through Poland and Romania Poland makes sense, but why Romania? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (8 children) The Soviet Union did not agree to invade Poland with the Nazis, it was about spheres of influence and red lines the Nazis should not cross in Poland. Spheres of influence were not agreements to jointly work together. When the USSR went into Poland, it stayed mostly to areas Poland had invaded and annexed a few decades prior. Should the Soviets have let Poland get entirely taken over by the Nazis, standing idle? The West made it clear that they were never going to help anyone against the Nazis until it was their turn to be targeted. Further, you're ignoring the Munich Agreement, where Czechoslovakia was given to the Nazis by the west. Not only was the west on good terms with the Nazis, signing many non-aggression pacts, they fostered healthy relationships. Finally, the Soviets were reasonably highly suspicious that Britain and Germany would ally. This was not unfounded, both were friendly enough until the outbreak of war. The Soviets desperately needed to make sure that the British and Germans would not ally, which reasonably would have happened had the Soviet Union taken unilateral action against the Nazis, rather than waiting to be attacked first. Stalin was said to have "obsessed over quantitative and qualitative" improvements in arms in the years leading up to World War II, and had soldiers stationed on high alert, preparing for a German attack. Despite the insistence of many Generals to muster forces on the German border, it was Stalin's insistence that forces not be so concentrated that prevented the Nazis from totally routing the Red Army, enabling the greatest counteroffensive in history. Hitler himself was quite honest at times, to himself at least: How can such a primitive people manage such technical achievements in such a short time! ... The fact that Stalin has raised the Russian standard of living is unquestionable. People don’t go hungry [at the moment when Operation Barbarossa was launched]. In general, it’s necessary to recognize that they have built factories of similar importance to Hermann Goering Reichswerke where two years ago nothing but unknown villages existed. We come across railway lines that aren’t even marked on our maps. The Soviets expected and planned for it, they were never allies with the Nazis. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (3 children) The USSR was aware of the defensive pact between the west and Poland, and the west declared war on Germany when they invaded Poland. So you do think that the Soviets shouldn't have entered Poland (after the government had already collapsed to secure the parts of Ukraine Lithuania and Belarus the Poles had occupied in the interwar period) and instead let the Nazis have full reign of the entire country until the Nazis decided to move further east? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) But diplomatic cables reveal that the Germans would not have kept this part of Poland as they intended to uphold the pact with the Soviets So if they didn't sign the pact or had left this request out of it as you seemingly desire they would have taken it wholesale? So again we're back to the Molotov-Ribbentrop saving eastern Poland (actually Western Ukraine Belarus and Lithuania that was simply occupied by Poland) from the Nazi scourge (for a time). Whether you agree on that the Soviets should have signed They absolutely should as the last power to do so allowing the time for them to build up the production capacity necessary cause 80% of the Nazi deaths of the war. It really seems like you would have preferred the Soviets leave Western Belarus Lithuania and Ukraine for dead and do nothing to delay the inevitable war with the Nazis to actually recover to fighting strength post revolution. Maybe that would have been the more pure option but it also would have been suicidal idiocy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 5 months ago (2 children) You're reading the spheres of influence aspect of Molotov-Ribbentrop with hermeneutics of suspicion. The implication on your end is that the Soviets expected the pact to hold, and to split Europe with Nazi Germany. This implies the expectation of a lasting alliance, which is immediately thrown out the window when you see just how much the Soviets were preparing for war against the Nazis, and that the Red Army was specifically told to watch out for German soldiers. Regarding Poland in particular, the Soviet sphere of influence, again, was made up of areas Poland had violently annexed from countries like Lithuania and Ukraine only a couple decades prior. The Soviets did not plan on conquesting Poland, they simply stated that Nazi Germany was not allowed to take former Soviet land. When Poland was invaded by Germany, the state was destroyed, and the Red Army took formerly Lithuanian, Ukrainian, etc areas, sparing them from the Holocaust. Would you want the entirety of Poland to go to the Nazis? Should the USSR have gone to war with Nazi Germany then and there, with the possibility of the west aiding the Nazis to take out the USSR? As for the West, again, you ignore that at the time they were quite honest with wanting to contain the Bolsheviks. They were more than willing to work with the Nazis, America even kept trading with them during the war, and American factories were deliberately not targeted in Nazi Germany even if Nazis were hiding in them. Truman was honest: If we see that Germany is winning we ought to help Russia, and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible, although I don’t want to see Hitler victorious under any circumstances. The whole time in the background, Britain and France were attempting to get the Soviets and Nazis to kill each other off. France spread faulty rumors of a fabricated speech by Stalin wanting to conquest Europe, Britain warned Germany of an impending soviet attack at the same time they warned Russia of Barbarossa, and the Nazis themselves were constantly posturing around either invading Britain, using Crete as a template for naval invasion, or making a deal with them. Before Barbarossa, Rudolf Hess flew to England, drawing the appearance of an impending deal. The entirety of the pre-War period was a tumultuous game of trying to decide what the lines of the war would be. The west made it clear that it hated the Soviets, and the Soviets made it clear that they hated the Nazis, but did not want to risk both the Nazis and the west coming after them, which would have been unwinnable most likely. Nobody could be confused of an actual Soviet-Nazi alliance. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Regarding Poland, again, this was territory Poland had conquered previously that historically belonged to countries in the Soviet Union. This was a return of territory. By no means did it come without bloodshed, but nevertheless the soviets were not nearly the butchers the Nazis were. As for the west conspiring to kill of the Soviet Union, and letting Germany do so, again, I gave naked testimony that this was the case. The Soviet Union wanted above all else to survive, the Nazis wanted new colonial territories, and the west wanted to not get colonized by the Nazis while also wanting the Soviets to stop being socialist. Do you have a source on a British warning to Germany? Wolkow W. K. (2003), Stalin wollte ein anderes Europa. Moskaus Außenpolitik 1940 bis 1968 und die Folgen, Edition Ost, Berlin, p. 110. The British warnings to the USSR were sadly ignored; Stalin did not order the Red Army to get ready for an invasion, which was partially why the first few months of the war went so disastrously poorly for the Soviets. I already explained this earlier. There was a massivedisinformation campaign, with feints from both Germany and the western powers. The first few weeks went as everyone expected, the Nazis advanced quickly over largely open land until running face to face with the full industrialized might of the Red Army. Goebbels' diary is quite telling of the change in attitude. On the 22nd-23rd of June, the Nazis attacked confidently. On July 2nd, Goebbels wrote the following: Overall, the fighting is hard and stubborn. We can in no way speak of a walk in the park. The red regime has mobilized the people. July 24th: We can have no doubt whatsoever about the fact that the Bolshevik regime, which has existed for nearly a quarter of a century, has left a deep mark on the peoples of the Soviet Union […]. It would be right, therefore, if we clearly informed the German people about the harshness of the struggle taking place in the East. The nation must be told that this operation is very difficult, but that we can and will survive it. August 1st: At the Führer’s headquarters […] they also openly admit that they were somewhat mistaken in their assessment of Soviet fighting power. The Bolsheviks are showing stronger resistance than we expected, and above all the material means at their disposal are greater than we had anticipated. August 9th: Privately, the Führer is very displeased for having allowed himself to be so deceived about the potential of the Bolsheviks by the reports [sent by German agents] coming from the Soviet Union. In particular, the underestimation of the enemy’s tanks and aircraft caused a great deal of trouble for our military operations. He suffers a lot because of this. We’re dealing with a serious crisis […]. The previous campaigns were a walk in the park by comparison […]. The Führer is not worried about the West […]. In our German thoroughness and objectivity we have always overestimated the enemy, except, in this case, the Bolsheviks. September 16th: We have totally underestimated the strength of the Bolsheviks. This was not a walk in the park for the Nazis, because the Soviets planned for it. Modern historiography makes it quite clear that the Nazis and Soviets were never allies in any capacity, for any length of time, and were always conspiring against each other with no expectation of actual peace, just biding their time before what they desired to be a favorable start to war. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago Regarding Poland, no, the Soviets were not worse. The Nazis subjected the Polish to the holocaust, and was committed to exterminating millions of Poles. One historian saying "in many ways, the soviets were worse" doesn't even mean the soviets were worse in total, yet that's the implication you bring. Historical evidence backs up that the Nazi colonization of Poland was a prototype for the Nazi colonization of the Soviets. As for Stalin and preparation for Barbarossa, again, reports conflicted. The Soviets knew that the Nazis were going to eventually invade, which is why Stalin had the Red Army prepare for German invasion. It wasn't that Stalin didn't mobilize the Red Army, it's that Stalin refused to muster forces on the border, which was exactly what the Nazis wanted. The Nazis wanted to quickly route the Red Army and march straight to Moscow relatively unopposed, instead they ran through largely empty, wide-open land quickly, before running into extreme resistance. If you don't trust Goebbels, there's plenty of other testemonies from Nazi officials, such as General Fedor von Bock in late July: The enemy seeks to recapture Smolensk at all costs and is constantly sending in new forces. The theory expressed by some that the enemy acts without plans is not reflected in the facts […]. We’ve verified that the Russians have brought up across the front a new and compact deployment of forces. In many areas they seek to go on the offensive. It’s surprising for an adversary which suffered so many blows; they must possess an unbelievable amount of resources, in fact our troops still lament the power of the enemy artillery. Here's an excerpt from Domenico Losurdo's book on Stalin: Long read as an example of political-military ignorance or even blind trust in the Third Reich, the extremely cautious approach taken by Stalin in the weeks leading up to the outbreak of hostilities now appears in an entirely different light: “The relatively open concentration of Wehrmacht forces along the Soviet border, the violations of Soviet airspace and numerous other provocations had only a single purpose: to draw the main forces of the Red Army as close to the border as possible. Hitler wanted to win the war in one gigantic battle.” Even valiant generals were enticed by this trap. Expecting an onslaught, they insisted on a massive relocation of troops toward the border. However, “Stalin categorically rejected this demand, insisting on the need to maintain large-scale reserves at a considerable distance from any conceivable front line.” After the war, studying the material left behind by the German architects of Operation Barbarossa, marshall Georgy K. Zhukov recognized the correctness of the line pursued by Stalin: “Hitler’s command was counting on us bringing our main forces up to the border with the intention of surrounding and destroying them.” Now, you may say that Zhukov was simply trying to play the political line. However, it's abundantly clear that this is in fact exactly how it played out. The rapid conquest of largely open land was met with a rapid counteroffensive that placed the Nazis in a dreadful stalemate, and eventually a legendary counterattack. Had Stalin listened to his generals, it's likely they would have played into the Nazi's plans. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 16 points 5 months ago* (2 children) The purges were a popularly supported response to genuine threats and infiltration. They were not a misunderstanding, but they did exceed initial expectations, which is why they were stopped. As for Hitler (and the rest of the fascist movement), the Soviets (Stalin included) absolutely despised him. That's why the Soviets spent the 1930s ramping up industrial production as quickly as they could, and trying to form an anti-fascist coalition with the west (which the British and French tanked). Stalin was said to have "obsessed over quantitative and qualitative" improvements in arms in the years leading up to World War II, and had soldiers stationed on high alert, preparing for a German attack. Despite the insistence of many Generals to muster forces on the German border, it was Stalin's insistence that forces not be so concentrated that prevented the Nazis from totally routing the Red Army, enabling the greatest counteroffensive in history. Hitler himself was quite honest at times, to himself at least: How can such a primitive people manage such technical achievements in such a short time! ... The fact that Stalin has raised the Russian standard of living is unquestionable. People don’t go hungry [at the moment when Operation Barbarossa was launched]. In general, it’s necessary to recognize that they have built factories of similar importance to Hermann Goering Reichswerke where two years ago nothing but unknown villages existed. We come across railway lines that aren’t even marked on our maps. Statesian journalist and activist Anna Louise Strong actually met and spoke with Stalin, writing down her impressions: My first impression of him was vaguely disappointing. A stocky figure in a simple suit of khaki color, direct, unassuming, whose first concern was to know whether I understood Russian sufficiently to take part in discussion. Not very imposing for so great a man, I thought. Then we sat down rather casually, and Stalin was not even at the head of the table; Voroshilov was. Stalin took a place where he could see all our faces and started the talk by a pointed question to the man against whom I had complained. After that Stalin seemed to become a sort of background, against which other people’s comments went on. The brilliant wit of Kaganovich, the cheerful chuckle of Voroshilov, the characteristics of the lesser people called to consult, all suddenly stood out. I began to understand them all and like them; I even began to understand the editor against whom I had complained. Suddenly I myself was talking and getting my facts out faster and more clearly than I ever did in my life. People seemed to agree with me. Everything got to the point very fast and smoothly, with Stalin saying less than anyone. Afterward in thinking it over I realized how Stalin’s genius for listening helped each of us express ourselves and understand the others. I recalled his trick of repeating a word of mine either with questioning intonation or a slight emphasis, which suddenly made me feel I had either not quite seen the point or perhaps had overstated it, and so drove me to make it plainer. I recalled how he had done this to others also. Then I understood that his listening has been a dynamic force. This listening habit dates back to the early days of his revolutionary career. “I remember him very well from the early days of our Party,” said a veteran Bolshevik to me. “A quiet youth who sat at the edge of the committee, saying almost nothing, but listening very much. Toward the end he would make a few comments, sometimes merely as questions. Gradually we came to see that he always summed up best our joint thinking.” The description will be recognized by anyone who ever met Stalin. In any group he is usually last to express his opinion. He does not want to block the full expression of others, as he might easily do by speaking first. Besides this, he is always learning by listening. I highly recommended the book Stalin: History and Critique of a Black Legend by legendary communist Domenico Losurdo. Losurdo's unique method in the book is to use near-exclusively western, anti-communist sources, including Goebbels, Hitler, the New York Times, and so forth to examine not just Stalin, but to explain why Stalin is both so hated and yet so loved. It's a critique of the legend surrounding Stalin. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Hadriscus@jlai.lu 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Thanks for the references permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 5 months ago No problem! permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 20 points 5 months ago (15 children) good friend to that big bad Hitler guy. This is a children's cartoon-ass story that falls apart at the slightest investigation. 80% of dead nazis died on the eastern front. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Bloomcole@lemmy.world 12 points 5 months ago People who believe that fascists, whose aim and total reason of being was to combat communism would be partners with them. That is just embarrassing permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 18 points 5 months ago (12 children) The communists were never allies with the Nazis. A non-aggression pact is not an alliance. The communists spent the decade prior trying to form an anti-Nazi coalition force, such as the Anglo-French-Soviet Alliance which was pitched by the communists and rejected by the British and French. The communists hated the Nazis from the beginning, as the Nazi party rose to prominence by killing communists and labor organizers, cemented bourgeois rule, and was violently racist and imperialist, while the communists opposed all of that. When the many talks of alliances with the west all fell short, the Soviets reluctantly agreed to sign a non-agression pact, in order to delay the coming war that everyone knew was happening soon. Throughout the last decade, Britain, France, and other western countries had formed pacts with Nazi Germany, such as the Four-Power Pact, the German-French-Non-Agression Pact, and more. Molotov-Ribbentrop was unique among the non-agression pacts with Nazi Germany in that it was right on the eve of war, and was the first between the USSR and Nazi Germany. It was a last resort, when the west was content from the beginning with working alongside Hitler. Harry Truman, in 1941 in front of the Senate, stated: If we see that Germany is winning we ought to help Russia, and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible, although I don’t want to see Hitler victorious under any circumstances. Not only that, but it was the Soviet Union that was responsible for 4/5ths of total Nazi deaths, and winning the war against the Nazis. The Soviet Union did not agree to invade Poland with the Nazis, it was about spheres of influence and red lines the Nazis should not cross in Poland. When the USSR went into Poland, it stayed mostly to areas Poland had invaded and annexed a few decades prior. Should the Soviets have let Poland get entirely taken over by the Nazis, standing idle? The West made it clear that they were never going to help anyone against the Nazis until it was their turn to be targeted. Churchill did not take the Nazis as a serious threat, and was horrified when FDR and Stalin made a joke about executing Nazis. Churchill starved millions to death in India in preventable ways, and had this to say about it: I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion. The famine was their own fault for breeding like rabbits. Meanwhile, the soviet famine in the 1930s was the last major famine outside of wartime in the USSR, because collectivized farming achieved food security in a region where famine was common. As a consequence, life expectancy doubled: The Nazis and soviets were never allies. A non-aggression pact is not an alliance, and the non-aggression pact between the soviets and the Nazis was unique among the other non-aggression pacts in that it was on the eve of war. The soviets knew war was coming, and so bought more time to prepare. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Edie@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago (1 child) the Red Army would be given free passage through Poland and Romania Poland makes sense, but why Romania? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (8 children) The Soviet Union did not agree to invade Poland with the Nazis, it was about spheres of influence and red lines the Nazis should not cross in Poland. Spheres of influence were not agreements to jointly work together. When the USSR went into Poland, it stayed mostly to areas Poland had invaded and annexed a few decades prior. Should the Soviets have let Poland get entirely taken over by the Nazis, standing idle? The West made it clear that they were never going to help anyone against the Nazis until it was their turn to be targeted. Further, you're ignoring the Munich Agreement, where Czechoslovakia was given to the Nazis by the west. Not only was the west on good terms with the Nazis, signing many non-aggression pacts, they fostered healthy relationships. Finally, the Soviets were reasonably highly suspicious that Britain and Germany would ally. This was not unfounded, both were friendly enough until the outbreak of war. The Soviets desperately needed to make sure that the British and Germans would not ally, which reasonably would have happened had the Soviet Union taken unilateral action against the Nazis, rather than waiting to be attacked first. Stalin was said to have "obsessed over quantitative and qualitative" improvements in arms in the years leading up to World War II, and had soldiers stationed on high alert, preparing for a German attack. Despite the insistence of many Generals to muster forces on the German border, it was Stalin's insistence that forces not be so concentrated that prevented the Nazis from totally routing the Red Army, enabling the greatest counteroffensive in history. Hitler himself was quite honest at times, to himself at least: How can such a primitive people manage such technical achievements in such a short time! ... The fact that Stalin has raised the Russian standard of living is unquestionable. People don’t go hungry [at the moment when Operation Barbarossa was launched]. In general, it’s necessary to recognize that they have built factories of similar importance to Hermann Goering Reichswerke where two years ago nothing but unknown villages existed. We come across railway lines that aren’t even marked on our maps. The Soviets expected and planned for it, they were never allies with the Nazis. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (3 children) The USSR was aware of the defensive pact between the west and Poland, and the west declared war on Germany when they invaded Poland. So you do think that the Soviets shouldn't have entered Poland (after the government had already collapsed to secure the parts of Ukraine Lithuania and Belarus the Poles had occupied in the interwar period) and instead let the Nazis have full reign of the entire country until the Nazis decided to move further east? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) But diplomatic cables reveal that the Germans would not have kept this part of Poland as they intended to uphold the pact with the Soviets So if they didn't sign the pact or had left this request out of it as you seemingly desire they would have taken it wholesale? So again we're back to the Molotov-Ribbentrop saving eastern Poland (actually Western Ukraine Belarus and Lithuania that was simply occupied by Poland) from the Nazi scourge (for a time). Whether you agree on that the Soviets should have signed They absolutely should as the last power to do so allowing the time for them to build up the production capacity necessary cause 80% of the Nazi deaths of the war. It really seems like you would have preferred the Soviets leave Western Belarus Lithuania and Ukraine for dead and do nothing to delay the inevitable war with the Nazis to actually recover to fighting strength post revolution. Maybe that would have been the more pure option but it also would have been suicidal idiocy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 5 months ago (2 children) You're reading the spheres of influence aspect of Molotov-Ribbentrop with hermeneutics of suspicion. The implication on your end is that the Soviets expected the pact to hold, and to split Europe with Nazi Germany. This implies the expectation of a lasting alliance, which is immediately thrown out the window when you see just how much the Soviets were preparing for war against the Nazis, and that the Red Army was specifically told to watch out for German soldiers. Regarding Poland in particular, the Soviet sphere of influence, again, was made up of areas Poland had violently annexed from countries like Lithuania and Ukraine only a couple decades prior. The Soviets did not plan on conquesting Poland, they simply stated that Nazi Germany was not allowed to take former Soviet land. When Poland was invaded by Germany, the state was destroyed, and the Red Army took formerly Lithuanian, Ukrainian, etc areas, sparing them from the Holocaust. Would you want the entirety of Poland to go to the Nazis? Should the USSR have gone to war with Nazi Germany then and there, with the possibility of the west aiding the Nazis to take out the USSR? As for the West, again, you ignore that at the time they were quite honest with wanting to contain the Bolsheviks. They were more than willing to work with the Nazis, America even kept trading with them during the war, and American factories were deliberately not targeted in Nazi Germany even if Nazis were hiding in them. Truman was honest: If we see that Germany is winning we ought to help Russia, and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible, although I don’t want to see Hitler victorious under any circumstances. The whole time in the background, Britain and France were attempting to get the Soviets and Nazis to kill each other off. France spread faulty rumors of a fabricated speech by Stalin wanting to conquest Europe, Britain warned Germany of an impending soviet attack at the same time they warned Russia of Barbarossa, and the Nazis themselves were constantly posturing around either invading Britain, using Crete as a template for naval invasion, or making a deal with them. Before Barbarossa, Rudolf Hess flew to England, drawing the appearance of an impending deal. The entirety of the pre-War period was a tumultuous game of trying to decide what the lines of the war would be. The west made it clear that it hated the Soviets, and the Soviets made it clear that they hated the Nazis, but did not want to risk both the Nazis and the west coming after them, which would have been unwinnable most likely. Nobody could be confused of an actual Soviet-Nazi alliance. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Regarding Poland, again, this was territory Poland had conquered previously that historically belonged to countries in the Soviet Union. This was a return of territory. By no means did it come without bloodshed, but nevertheless the soviets were not nearly the butchers the Nazis were. As for the west conspiring to kill of the Soviet Union, and letting Germany do so, again, I gave naked testimony that this was the case. The Soviet Union wanted above all else to survive, the Nazis wanted new colonial territories, and the west wanted to not get colonized by the Nazis while also wanting the Soviets to stop being socialist. Do you have a source on a British warning to Germany? Wolkow W. K. (2003), Stalin wollte ein anderes Europa. Moskaus Außenpolitik 1940 bis 1968 und die Folgen, Edition Ost, Berlin, p. 110. The British warnings to the USSR were sadly ignored; Stalin did not order the Red Army to get ready for an invasion, which was partially why the first few months of the war went so disastrously poorly for the Soviets. I already explained this earlier. There was a massivedisinformation campaign, with feints from both Germany and the western powers. The first few weeks went as everyone expected, the Nazis advanced quickly over largely open land until running face to face with the full industrialized might of the Red Army. Goebbels' diary is quite telling of the change in attitude. On the 22nd-23rd of June, the Nazis attacked confidently. On July 2nd, Goebbels wrote the following: Overall, the fighting is hard and stubborn. We can in no way speak of a walk in the park. The red regime has mobilized the people. July 24th: We can have no doubt whatsoever about the fact that the Bolshevik regime, which has existed for nearly a quarter of a century, has left a deep mark on the peoples of the Soviet Union […]. It would be right, therefore, if we clearly informed the German people about the harshness of the struggle taking place in the East. The nation must be told that this operation is very difficult, but that we can and will survive it. August 1st: At the Führer’s headquarters […] they also openly admit that they were somewhat mistaken in their assessment of Soviet fighting power. The Bolsheviks are showing stronger resistance than we expected, and above all the material means at their disposal are greater than we had anticipated. August 9th: Privately, the Führer is very displeased for having allowed himself to be so deceived about the potential of the Bolsheviks by the reports [sent by German agents] coming from the Soviet Union. In particular, the underestimation of the enemy’s tanks and aircraft caused a great deal of trouble for our military operations. He suffers a lot because of this. We’re dealing with a serious crisis […]. The previous campaigns were a walk in the park by comparison […]. The Führer is not worried about the West […]. In our German thoroughness and objectivity we have always overestimated the enemy, except, in this case, the Bolsheviks. September 16th: We have totally underestimated the strength of the Bolsheviks. This was not a walk in the park for the Nazis, because the Soviets planned for it. Modern historiography makes it quite clear that the Nazis and Soviets were never allies in any capacity, for any length of time, and were always conspiring against each other with no expectation of actual peace, just biding their time before what they desired to be a favorable start to war. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago Regarding Poland, no, the Soviets were not worse. The Nazis subjected the Polish to the holocaust, and was committed to exterminating millions of Poles. One historian saying "in many ways, the soviets were worse" doesn't even mean the soviets were worse in total, yet that's the implication you bring. Historical evidence backs up that the Nazi colonization of Poland was a prototype for the Nazi colonization of the Soviets. As for Stalin and preparation for Barbarossa, again, reports conflicted. The Soviets knew that the Nazis were going to eventually invade, which is why Stalin had the Red Army prepare for German invasion. It wasn't that Stalin didn't mobilize the Red Army, it's that Stalin refused to muster forces on the border, which was exactly what the Nazis wanted. The Nazis wanted to quickly route the Red Army and march straight to Moscow relatively unopposed, instead they ran through largely empty, wide-open land quickly, before running into extreme resistance. If you don't trust Goebbels, there's plenty of other testemonies from Nazi officials, such as General Fedor von Bock in late July: The enemy seeks to recapture Smolensk at all costs and is constantly sending in new forces. The theory expressed by some that the enemy acts without plans is not reflected in the facts […]. We’ve verified that the Russians have brought up across the front a new and compact deployment of forces. In many areas they seek to go on the offensive. It’s surprising for an adversary which suffered so many blows; they must possess an unbelievable amount of resources, in fact our troops still lament the power of the enemy artillery. Here's an excerpt from Domenico Losurdo's book on Stalin: Long read as an example of political-military ignorance or even blind trust in the Third Reich, the extremely cautious approach taken by Stalin in the weeks leading up to the outbreak of hostilities now appears in an entirely different light: “The relatively open concentration of Wehrmacht forces along the Soviet border, the violations of Soviet airspace and numerous other provocations had only a single purpose: to draw the main forces of the Red Army as close to the border as possible. Hitler wanted to win the war in one gigantic battle.” Even valiant generals were enticed by this trap. Expecting an onslaught, they insisted on a massive relocation of troops toward the border. However, “Stalin categorically rejected this demand, insisting on the need to maintain large-scale reserves at a considerable distance from any conceivable front line.” After the war, studying the material left behind by the German architects of Operation Barbarossa, marshall Georgy K. Zhukov recognized the correctness of the line pursued by Stalin: “Hitler’s command was counting on us bringing our main forces up to the border with the intention of surrounding and destroying them.” Now, you may say that Zhukov was simply trying to play the political line. However, it's abundantly clear that this is in fact exactly how it played out. The rapid conquest of largely open land was met with a rapid counteroffensive that placed the Nazis in a dreadful stalemate, and eventually a legendary counterattack. Had Stalin listened to his generals, it's likely they would have played into the Nazi's plans. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 16 points 5 months ago* (2 children) The purges were a popularly supported response to genuine threats and infiltration. They were not a misunderstanding, but they did exceed initial expectations, which is why they were stopped. As for Hitler (and the rest of the fascist movement), the Soviets (Stalin included) absolutely despised him. That's why the Soviets spent the 1930s ramping up industrial production as quickly as they could, and trying to form an anti-fascist coalition with the west (which the British and French tanked). Stalin was said to have "obsessed over quantitative and qualitative" improvements in arms in the years leading up to World War II, and had soldiers stationed on high alert, preparing for a German attack. Despite the insistence of many Generals to muster forces on the German border, it was Stalin's insistence that forces not be so concentrated that prevented the Nazis from totally routing the Red Army, enabling the greatest counteroffensive in history. Hitler himself was quite honest at times, to himself at least: How can such a primitive people manage such technical achievements in such a short time! ... The fact that Stalin has raised the Russian standard of living is unquestionable. People don’t go hungry [at the moment when Operation Barbarossa was launched]. In general, it’s necessary to recognize that they have built factories of similar importance to Hermann Goering Reichswerke where two years ago nothing but unknown villages existed. We come across railway lines that aren’t even marked on our maps. Statesian journalist and activist Anna Louise Strong actually met and spoke with Stalin, writing down her impressions: My first impression of him was vaguely disappointing. A stocky figure in a simple suit of khaki color, direct, unassuming, whose first concern was to know whether I understood Russian sufficiently to take part in discussion. Not very imposing for so great a man, I thought. Then we sat down rather casually, and Stalin was not even at the head of the table; Voroshilov was. Stalin took a place where he could see all our faces and started the talk by a pointed question to the man against whom I had complained. After that Stalin seemed to become a sort of background, against which other people’s comments went on. The brilliant wit of Kaganovich, the cheerful chuckle of Voroshilov, the characteristics of the lesser people called to consult, all suddenly stood out. I began to understand them all and like them; I even began to understand the editor against whom I had complained. Suddenly I myself was talking and getting my facts out faster and more clearly than I ever did in my life. People seemed to agree with me. Everything got to the point very fast and smoothly, with Stalin saying less than anyone. Afterward in thinking it over I realized how Stalin’s genius for listening helped each of us express ourselves and understand the others. I recalled his trick of repeating a word of mine either with questioning intonation or a slight emphasis, which suddenly made me feel I had either not quite seen the point or perhaps had overstated it, and so drove me to make it plainer. I recalled how he had done this to others also. Then I understood that his listening has been a dynamic force. This listening habit dates back to the early days of his revolutionary career. “I remember him very well from the early days of our Party,” said a veteran Bolshevik to me. “A quiet youth who sat at the edge of the committee, saying almost nothing, but listening very much. Toward the end he would make a few comments, sometimes merely as questions. Gradually we came to see that he always summed up best our joint thinking.” The description will be recognized by anyone who ever met Stalin. In any group he is usually last to express his opinion. He does not want to block the full expression of others, as he might easily do by speaking first. Besides this, he is always learning by listening. I highly recommended the book Stalin: History and Critique of a Black Legend by legendary communist Domenico Losurdo. Losurdo's unique method in the book is to use near-exclusively western, anti-communist sources, including Goebbels, Hitler, the New York Times, and so forth to examine not just Stalin, but to explain why Stalin is both so hated and yet so loved. It's a critique of the legend surrounding Stalin. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Hadriscus@jlai.lu 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Thanks for the references permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 5 months ago No problem! permalink fedilink source parent
[–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 20 points 5 months ago (15 children) good friend to that big bad Hitler guy. This is a children's cartoon-ass story that falls apart at the slightest investigation. 80% of dead nazis died on the eastern front. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Bloomcole@lemmy.world 12 points 5 months ago People who believe that fascists, whose aim and total reason of being was to combat communism would be partners with them. That is just embarrassing permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 18 points 5 months ago (12 children) The communists were never allies with the Nazis. A non-aggression pact is not an alliance. The communists spent the decade prior trying to form an anti-Nazi coalition force, such as the Anglo-French-Soviet Alliance which was pitched by the communists and rejected by the British and French. The communists hated the Nazis from the beginning, as the Nazi party rose to prominence by killing communists and labor organizers, cemented bourgeois rule, and was violently racist and imperialist, while the communists opposed all of that. When the many talks of alliances with the west all fell short, the Soviets reluctantly agreed to sign a non-agression pact, in order to delay the coming war that everyone knew was happening soon. Throughout the last decade, Britain, France, and other western countries had formed pacts with Nazi Germany, such as the Four-Power Pact, the German-French-Non-Agression Pact, and more. Molotov-Ribbentrop was unique among the non-agression pacts with Nazi Germany in that it was right on the eve of war, and was the first between the USSR and Nazi Germany. It was a last resort, when the west was content from the beginning with working alongside Hitler. Harry Truman, in 1941 in front of the Senate, stated: If we see that Germany is winning we ought to help Russia, and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible, although I don’t want to see Hitler victorious under any circumstances. Not only that, but it was the Soviet Union that was responsible for 4/5ths of total Nazi deaths, and winning the war against the Nazis. The Soviet Union did not agree to invade Poland with the Nazis, it was about spheres of influence and red lines the Nazis should not cross in Poland. When the USSR went into Poland, it stayed mostly to areas Poland had invaded and annexed a few decades prior. Should the Soviets have let Poland get entirely taken over by the Nazis, standing idle? The West made it clear that they were never going to help anyone against the Nazis until it was their turn to be targeted. Churchill did not take the Nazis as a serious threat, and was horrified when FDR and Stalin made a joke about executing Nazis. Churchill starved millions to death in India in preventable ways, and had this to say about it: I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion. The famine was their own fault for breeding like rabbits. Meanwhile, the soviet famine in the 1930s was the last major famine outside of wartime in the USSR, because collectivized farming achieved food security in a region where famine was common. As a consequence, life expectancy doubled: The Nazis and soviets were never allies. A non-aggression pact is not an alliance, and the non-aggression pact between the soviets and the Nazis was unique among the other non-aggression pacts in that it was on the eve of war. The soviets knew war was coming, and so bought more time to prepare. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Edie@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago (1 child) the Red Army would be given free passage through Poland and Romania Poland makes sense, but why Romania? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (8 children) The Soviet Union did not agree to invade Poland with the Nazis, it was about spheres of influence and red lines the Nazis should not cross in Poland. Spheres of influence were not agreements to jointly work together. When the USSR went into Poland, it stayed mostly to areas Poland had invaded and annexed a few decades prior. Should the Soviets have let Poland get entirely taken over by the Nazis, standing idle? The West made it clear that they were never going to help anyone against the Nazis until it was their turn to be targeted. Further, you're ignoring the Munich Agreement, where Czechoslovakia was given to the Nazis by the west. Not only was the west on good terms with the Nazis, signing many non-aggression pacts, they fostered healthy relationships. Finally, the Soviets were reasonably highly suspicious that Britain and Germany would ally. This was not unfounded, both were friendly enough until the outbreak of war. The Soviets desperately needed to make sure that the British and Germans would not ally, which reasonably would have happened had the Soviet Union taken unilateral action against the Nazis, rather than waiting to be attacked first. Stalin was said to have "obsessed over quantitative and qualitative" improvements in arms in the years leading up to World War II, and had soldiers stationed on high alert, preparing for a German attack. Despite the insistence of many Generals to muster forces on the German border, it was Stalin's insistence that forces not be so concentrated that prevented the Nazis from totally routing the Red Army, enabling the greatest counteroffensive in history. Hitler himself was quite honest at times, to himself at least: How can such a primitive people manage such technical achievements in such a short time! ... The fact that Stalin has raised the Russian standard of living is unquestionable. People don’t go hungry [at the moment when Operation Barbarossa was launched]. In general, it’s necessary to recognize that they have built factories of similar importance to Hermann Goering Reichswerke where two years ago nothing but unknown villages existed. We come across railway lines that aren’t even marked on our maps. The Soviets expected and planned for it, they were never allies with the Nazis. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (3 children) The USSR was aware of the defensive pact between the west and Poland, and the west declared war on Germany when they invaded Poland. So you do think that the Soviets shouldn't have entered Poland (after the government had already collapsed to secure the parts of Ukraine Lithuania and Belarus the Poles had occupied in the interwar period) and instead let the Nazis have full reign of the entire country until the Nazis decided to move further east? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) But diplomatic cables reveal that the Germans would not have kept this part of Poland as they intended to uphold the pact with the Soviets So if they didn't sign the pact or had left this request out of it as you seemingly desire they would have taken it wholesale? So again we're back to the Molotov-Ribbentrop saving eastern Poland (actually Western Ukraine Belarus and Lithuania that was simply occupied by Poland) from the Nazi scourge (for a time). Whether you agree on that the Soviets should have signed They absolutely should as the last power to do so allowing the time for them to build up the production capacity necessary cause 80% of the Nazi deaths of the war. It really seems like you would have preferred the Soviets leave Western Belarus Lithuania and Ukraine for dead and do nothing to delay the inevitable war with the Nazis to actually recover to fighting strength post revolution. Maybe that would have been the more pure option but it also would have been suicidal idiocy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 5 months ago (2 children) You're reading the spheres of influence aspect of Molotov-Ribbentrop with hermeneutics of suspicion. The implication on your end is that the Soviets expected the pact to hold, and to split Europe with Nazi Germany. This implies the expectation of a lasting alliance, which is immediately thrown out the window when you see just how much the Soviets were preparing for war against the Nazis, and that the Red Army was specifically told to watch out for German soldiers. Regarding Poland in particular, the Soviet sphere of influence, again, was made up of areas Poland had violently annexed from countries like Lithuania and Ukraine only a couple decades prior. The Soviets did not plan on conquesting Poland, they simply stated that Nazi Germany was not allowed to take former Soviet land. When Poland was invaded by Germany, the state was destroyed, and the Red Army took formerly Lithuanian, Ukrainian, etc areas, sparing them from the Holocaust. Would you want the entirety of Poland to go to the Nazis? Should the USSR have gone to war with Nazi Germany then and there, with the possibility of the west aiding the Nazis to take out the USSR? As for the West, again, you ignore that at the time they were quite honest with wanting to contain the Bolsheviks. They were more than willing to work with the Nazis, America even kept trading with them during the war, and American factories were deliberately not targeted in Nazi Germany even if Nazis were hiding in them. Truman was honest: If we see that Germany is winning we ought to help Russia, and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible, although I don’t want to see Hitler victorious under any circumstances. The whole time in the background, Britain and France were attempting to get the Soviets and Nazis to kill each other off. France spread faulty rumors of a fabricated speech by Stalin wanting to conquest Europe, Britain warned Germany of an impending soviet attack at the same time they warned Russia of Barbarossa, and the Nazis themselves were constantly posturing around either invading Britain, using Crete as a template for naval invasion, or making a deal with them. Before Barbarossa, Rudolf Hess flew to England, drawing the appearance of an impending deal. The entirety of the pre-War period was a tumultuous game of trying to decide what the lines of the war would be. The west made it clear that it hated the Soviets, and the Soviets made it clear that they hated the Nazis, but did not want to risk both the Nazis and the west coming after them, which would have been unwinnable most likely. Nobody could be confused of an actual Soviet-Nazi alliance. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Regarding Poland, again, this was territory Poland had conquered previously that historically belonged to countries in the Soviet Union. This was a return of territory. By no means did it come without bloodshed, but nevertheless the soviets were not nearly the butchers the Nazis were. As for the west conspiring to kill of the Soviet Union, and letting Germany do so, again, I gave naked testimony that this was the case. The Soviet Union wanted above all else to survive, the Nazis wanted new colonial territories, and the west wanted to not get colonized by the Nazis while also wanting the Soviets to stop being socialist. Do you have a source on a British warning to Germany? Wolkow W. K. (2003), Stalin wollte ein anderes Europa. Moskaus Außenpolitik 1940 bis 1968 und die Folgen, Edition Ost, Berlin, p. 110. The British warnings to the USSR were sadly ignored; Stalin did not order the Red Army to get ready for an invasion, which was partially why the first few months of the war went so disastrously poorly for the Soviets. I already explained this earlier. There was a massivedisinformation campaign, with feints from both Germany and the western powers. The first few weeks went as everyone expected, the Nazis advanced quickly over largely open land until running face to face with the full industrialized might of the Red Army. Goebbels' diary is quite telling of the change in attitude. On the 22nd-23rd of June, the Nazis attacked confidently. On July 2nd, Goebbels wrote the following: Overall, the fighting is hard and stubborn. We can in no way speak of a walk in the park. The red regime has mobilized the people. July 24th: We can have no doubt whatsoever about the fact that the Bolshevik regime, which has existed for nearly a quarter of a century, has left a deep mark on the peoples of the Soviet Union […]. It would be right, therefore, if we clearly informed the German people about the harshness of the struggle taking place in the East. The nation must be told that this operation is very difficult, but that we can and will survive it. August 1st: At the Führer’s headquarters […] they also openly admit that they were somewhat mistaken in their assessment of Soviet fighting power. The Bolsheviks are showing stronger resistance than we expected, and above all the material means at their disposal are greater than we had anticipated. August 9th: Privately, the Führer is very displeased for having allowed himself to be so deceived about the potential of the Bolsheviks by the reports [sent by German agents] coming from the Soviet Union. In particular, the underestimation of the enemy’s tanks and aircraft caused a great deal of trouble for our military operations. He suffers a lot because of this. We’re dealing with a serious crisis […]. The previous campaigns were a walk in the park by comparison […]. The Führer is not worried about the West […]. In our German thoroughness and objectivity we have always overestimated the enemy, except, in this case, the Bolsheviks. September 16th: We have totally underestimated the strength of the Bolsheviks. This was not a walk in the park for the Nazis, because the Soviets planned for it. Modern historiography makes it quite clear that the Nazis and Soviets were never allies in any capacity, for any length of time, and were always conspiring against each other with no expectation of actual peace, just biding their time before what they desired to be a favorable start to war. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago Regarding Poland, no, the Soviets were not worse. The Nazis subjected the Polish to the holocaust, and was committed to exterminating millions of Poles. One historian saying "in many ways, the soviets were worse" doesn't even mean the soviets were worse in total, yet that's the implication you bring. Historical evidence backs up that the Nazi colonization of Poland was a prototype for the Nazi colonization of the Soviets. As for Stalin and preparation for Barbarossa, again, reports conflicted. The Soviets knew that the Nazis were going to eventually invade, which is why Stalin had the Red Army prepare for German invasion. It wasn't that Stalin didn't mobilize the Red Army, it's that Stalin refused to muster forces on the border, which was exactly what the Nazis wanted. The Nazis wanted to quickly route the Red Army and march straight to Moscow relatively unopposed, instead they ran through largely empty, wide-open land quickly, before running into extreme resistance. If you don't trust Goebbels, there's plenty of other testemonies from Nazi officials, such as General Fedor von Bock in late July: The enemy seeks to recapture Smolensk at all costs and is constantly sending in new forces. The theory expressed by some that the enemy acts without plans is not reflected in the facts […]. We’ve verified that the Russians have brought up across the front a new and compact deployment of forces. In many areas they seek to go on the offensive. It’s surprising for an adversary which suffered so many blows; they must possess an unbelievable amount of resources, in fact our troops still lament the power of the enemy artillery. Here's an excerpt from Domenico Losurdo's book on Stalin: Long read as an example of political-military ignorance or even blind trust in the Third Reich, the extremely cautious approach taken by Stalin in the weeks leading up to the outbreak of hostilities now appears in an entirely different light: “The relatively open concentration of Wehrmacht forces along the Soviet border, the violations of Soviet airspace and numerous other provocations had only a single purpose: to draw the main forces of the Red Army as close to the border as possible. Hitler wanted to win the war in one gigantic battle.” Even valiant generals were enticed by this trap. Expecting an onslaught, they insisted on a massive relocation of troops toward the border. However, “Stalin categorically rejected this demand, insisting on the need to maintain large-scale reserves at a considerable distance from any conceivable front line.” After the war, studying the material left behind by the German architects of Operation Barbarossa, marshall Georgy K. Zhukov recognized the correctness of the line pursued by Stalin: “Hitler’s command was counting on us bringing our main forces up to the border with the intention of surrounding and destroying them.” Now, you may say that Zhukov was simply trying to play the political line. However, it's abundantly clear that this is in fact exactly how it played out. The rapid conquest of largely open land was met with a rapid counteroffensive that placed the Nazis in a dreadful stalemate, and eventually a legendary counterattack. Had Stalin listened to his generals, it's likely they would have played into the Nazi's plans. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Bloomcole@lemmy.world 12 points 5 months ago People who believe that fascists, whose aim and total reason of being was to combat communism would be partners with them. That is just embarrassing permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 18 points 5 months ago (12 children) The communists were never allies with the Nazis. A non-aggression pact is not an alliance. The communists spent the decade prior trying to form an anti-Nazi coalition force, such as the Anglo-French-Soviet Alliance which was pitched by the communists and rejected by the British and French. The communists hated the Nazis from the beginning, as the Nazi party rose to prominence by killing communists and labor organizers, cemented bourgeois rule, and was violently racist and imperialist, while the communists opposed all of that. When the many talks of alliances with the west all fell short, the Soviets reluctantly agreed to sign a non-agression pact, in order to delay the coming war that everyone knew was happening soon. Throughout the last decade, Britain, France, and other western countries had formed pacts with Nazi Germany, such as the Four-Power Pact, the German-French-Non-Agression Pact, and more. Molotov-Ribbentrop was unique among the non-agression pacts with Nazi Germany in that it was right on the eve of war, and was the first between the USSR and Nazi Germany. It was a last resort, when the west was content from the beginning with working alongside Hitler. Harry Truman, in 1941 in front of the Senate, stated: If we see that Germany is winning we ought to help Russia, and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible, although I don’t want to see Hitler victorious under any circumstances. Not only that, but it was the Soviet Union that was responsible for 4/5ths of total Nazi deaths, and winning the war against the Nazis. The Soviet Union did not agree to invade Poland with the Nazis, it was about spheres of influence and red lines the Nazis should not cross in Poland. When the USSR went into Poland, it stayed mostly to areas Poland had invaded and annexed a few decades prior. Should the Soviets have let Poland get entirely taken over by the Nazis, standing idle? The West made it clear that they were never going to help anyone against the Nazis until it was their turn to be targeted. Churchill did not take the Nazis as a serious threat, and was horrified when FDR and Stalin made a joke about executing Nazis. Churchill starved millions to death in India in preventable ways, and had this to say about it: I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion. The famine was their own fault for breeding like rabbits. Meanwhile, the soviet famine in the 1930s was the last major famine outside of wartime in the USSR, because collectivized farming achieved food security in a region where famine was common. As a consequence, life expectancy doubled: The Nazis and soviets were never allies. A non-aggression pact is not an alliance, and the non-aggression pact between the soviets and the Nazis was unique among the other non-aggression pacts in that it was on the eve of war. The soviets knew war was coming, and so bought more time to prepare. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Edie@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago (1 child) the Red Army would be given free passage through Poland and Romania Poland makes sense, but why Romania? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (8 children) The Soviet Union did not agree to invade Poland with the Nazis, it was about spheres of influence and red lines the Nazis should not cross in Poland. Spheres of influence were not agreements to jointly work together. When the USSR went into Poland, it stayed mostly to areas Poland had invaded and annexed a few decades prior. Should the Soviets have let Poland get entirely taken over by the Nazis, standing idle? The West made it clear that they were never going to help anyone against the Nazis until it was their turn to be targeted. Further, you're ignoring the Munich Agreement, where Czechoslovakia was given to the Nazis by the west. Not only was the west on good terms with the Nazis, signing many non-aggression pacts, they fostered healthy relationships. Finally, the Soviets were reasonably highly suspicious that Britain and Germany would ally. This was not unfounded, both were friendly enough until the outbreak of war. The Soviets desperately needed to make sure that the British and Germans would not ally, which reasonably would have happened had the Soviet Union taken unilateral action against the Nazis, rather than waiting to be attacked first. Stalin was said to have "obsessed over quantitative and qualitative" improvements in arms in the years leading up to World War II, and had soldiers stationed on high alert, preparing for a German attack. Despite the insistence of many Generals to muster forces on the German border, it was Stalin's insistence that forces not be so concentrated that prevented the Nazis from totally routing the Red Army, enabling the greatest counteroffensive in history. Hitler himself was quite honest at times, to himself at least: How can such a primitive people manage such technical achievements in such a short time! ... The fact that Stalin has raised the Russian standard of living is unquestionable. People don’t go hungry [at the moment when Operation Barbarossa was launched]. In general, it’s necessary to recognize that they have built factories of similar importance to Hermann Goering Reichswerke where two years ago nothing but unknown villages existed. We come across railway lines that aren’t even marked on our maps. The Soviets expected and planned for it, they were never allies with the Nazis. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (3 children) The USSR was aware of the defensive pact between the west and Poland, and the west declared war on Germany when they invaded Poland. So you do think that the Soviets shouldn't have entered Poland (after the government had already collapsed to secure the parts of Ukraine Lithuania and Belarus the Poles had occupied in the interwar period) and instead let the Nazis have full reign of the entire country until the Nazis decided to move further east? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) But diplomatic cables reveal that the Germans would not have kept this part of Poland as they intended to uphold the pact with the Soviets So if they didn't sign the pact or had left this request out of it as you seemingly desire they would have taken it wholesale? So again we're back to the Molotov-Ribbentrop saving eastern Poland (actually Western Ukraine Belarus and Lithuania that was simply occupied by Poland) from the Nazi scourge (for a time). Whether you agree on that the Soviets should have signed They absolutely should as the last power to do so allowing the time for them to build up the production capacity necessary cause 80% of the Nazi deaths of the war. It really seems like you would have preferred the Soviets leave Western Belarus Lithuania and Ukraine for dead and do nothing to delay the inevitable war with the Nazis to actually recover to fighting strength post revolution. Maybe that would have been the more pure option but it also would have been suicidal idiocy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 5 months ago (2 children) You're reading the spheres of influence aspect of Molotov-Ribbentrop with hermeneutics of suspicion. The implication on your end is that the Soviets expected the pact to hold, and to split Europe with Nazi Germany. This implies the expectation of a lasting alliance, which is immediately thrown out the window when you see just how much the Soviets were preparing for war against the Nazis, and that the Red Army was specifically told to watch out for German soldiers. Regarding Poland in particular, the Soviet sphere of influence, again, was made up of areas Poland had violently annexed from countries like Lithuania and Ukraine only a couple decades prior. The Soviets did not plan on conquesting Poland, they simply stated that Nazi Germany was not allowed to take former Soviet land. When Poland was invaded by Germany, the state was destroyed, and the Red Army took formerly Lithuanian, Ukrainian, etc areas, sparing them from the Holocaust. Would you want the entirety of Poland to go to the Nazis? Should the USSR have gone to war with Nazi Germany then and there, with the possibility of the west aiding the Nazis to take out the USSR? As for the West, again, you ignore that at the time they were quite honest with wanting to contain the Bolsheviks. They were more than willing to work with the Nazis, America even kept trading with them during the war, and American factories were deliberately not targeted in Nazi Germany even if Nazis were hiding in them. Truman was honest: If we see that Germany is winning we ought to help Russia, and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible, although I don’t want to see Hitler victorious under any circumstances. The whole time in the background, Britain and France were attempting to get the Soviets and Nazis to kill each other off. France spread faulty rumors of a fabricated speech by Stalin wanting to conquest Europe, Britain warned Germany of an impending soviet attack at the same time they warned Russia of Barbarossa, and the Nazis themselves were constantly posturing around either invading Britain, using Crete as a template for naval invasion, or making a deal with them. Before Barbarossa, Rudolf Hess flew to England, drawing the appearance of an impending deal. The entirety of the pre-War period was a tumultuous game of trying to decide what the lines of the war would be. The west made it clear that it hated the Soviets, and the Soviets made it clear that they hated the Nazis, but did not want to risk both the Nazis and the west coming after them, which would have been unwinnable most likely. Nobody could be confused of an actual Soviet-Nazi alliance. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Regarding Poland, again, this was territory Poland had conquered previously that historically belonged to countries in the Soviet Union. This was a return of territory. By no means did it come without bloodshed, but nevertheless the soviets were not nearly the butchers the Nazis were. As for the west conspiring to kill of the Soviet Union, and letting Germany do so, again, I gave naked testimony that this was the case. The Soviet Union wanted above all else to survive, the Nazis wanted new colonial territories, and the west wanted to not get colonized by the Nazis while also wanting the Soviets to stop being socialist. Do you have a source on a British warning to Germany? Wolkow W. K. (2003), Stalin wollte ein anderes Europa. Moskaus Außenpolitik 1940 bis 1968 und die Folgen, Edition Ost, Berlin, p. 110. The British warnings to the USSR were sadly ignored; Stalin did not order the Red Army to get ready for an invasion, which was partially why the first few months of the war went so disastrously poorly for the Soviets. I already explained this earlier. There was a massivedisinformation campaign, with feints from both Germany and the western powers. The first few weeks went as everyone expected, the Nazis advanced quickly over largely open land until running face to face with the full industrialized might of the Red Army. Goebbels' diary is quite telling of the change in attitude. On the 22nd-23rd of June, the Nazis attacked confidently. On July 2nd, Goebbels wrote the following: Overall, the fighting is hard and stubborn. We can in no way speak of a walk in the park. The red regime has mobilized the people. July 24th: We can have no doubt whatsoever about the fact that the Bolshevik regime, which has existed for nearly a quarter of a century, has left a deep mark on the peoples of the Soviet Union […]. It would be right, therefore, if we clearly informed the German people about the harshness of the struggle taking place in the East. The nation must be told that this operation is very difficult, but that we can and will survive it. August 1st: At the Führer’s headquarters […] they also openly admit that they were somewhat mistaken in their assessment of Soviet fighting power. The Bolsheviks are showing stronger resistance than we expected, and above all the material means at their disposal are greater than we had anticipated. August 9th: Privately, the Führer is very displeased for having allowed himself to be so deceived about the potential of the Bolsheviks by the reports [sent by German agents] coming from the Soviet Union. In particular, the underestimation of the enemy’s tanks and aircraft caused a great deal of trouble for our military operations. He suffers a lot because of this. We’re dealing with a serious crisis […]. The previous campaigns were a walk in the park by comparison […]. The Führer is not worried about the West […]. In our German thoroughness and objectivity we have always overestimated the enemy, except, in this case, the Bolsheviks. September 16th: We have totally underestimated the strength of the Bolsheviks. This was not a walk in the park for the Nazis, because the Soviets planned for it. Modern historiography makes it quite clear that the Nazis and Soviets were never allies in any capacity, for any length of time, and were always conspiring against each other with no expectation of actual peace, just biding their time before what they desired to be a favorable start to war. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago Regarding Poland, no, the Soviets were not worse. The Nazis subjected the Polish to the holocaust, and was committed to exterminating millions of Poles. One historian saying "in many ways, the soviets were worse" doesn't even mean the soviets were worse in total, yet that's the implication you bring. Historical evidence backs up that the Nazi colonization of Poland was a prototype for the Nazi colonization of the Soviets. As for Stalin and preparation for Barbarossa, again, reports conflicted. The Soviets knew that the Nazis were going to eventually invade, which is why Stalin had the Red Army prepare for German invasion. It wasn't that Stalin didn't mobilize the Red Army, it's that Stalin refused to muster forces on the border, which was exactly what the Nazis wanted. The Nazis wanted to quickly route the Red Army and march straight to Moscow relatively unopposed, instead they ran through largely empty, wide-open land quickly, before running into extreme resistance. If you don't trust Goebbels, there's plenty of other testemonies from Nazi officials, such as General Fedor von Bock in late July: The enemy seeks to recapture Smolensk at all costs and is constantly sending in new forces. The theory expressed by some that the enemy acts without plans is not reflected in the facts […]. We’ve verified that the Russians have brought up across the front a new and compact deployment of forces. In many areas they seek to go on the offensive. It’s surprising for an adversary which suffered so many blows; they must possess an unbelievable amount of resources, in fact our troops still lament the power of the enemy artillery. Here's an excerpt from Domenico Losurdo's book on Stalin: Long read as an example of political-military ignorance or even blind trust in the Third Reich, the extremely cautious approach taken by Stalin in the weeks leading up to the outbreak of hostilities now appears in an entirely different light: “The relatively open concentration of Wehrmacht forces along the Soviet border, the violations of Soviet airspace and numerous other provocations had only a single purpose: to draw the main forces of the Red Army as close to the border as possible. Hitler wanted to win the war in one gigantic battle.” Even valiant generals were enticed by this trap. Expecting an onslaught, they insisted on a massive relocation of troops toward the border. However, “Stalin categorically rejected this demand, insisting on the need to maintain large-scale reserves at a considerable distance from any conceivable front line.” After the war, studying the material left behind by the German architects of Operation Barbarossa, marshall Georgy K. Zhukov recognized the correctness of the line pursued by Stalin: “Hitler’s command was counting on us bringing our main forces up to the border with the intention of surrounding and destroying them.” Now, you may say that Zhukov was simply trying to play the political line. However, it's abundantly clear that this is in fact exactly how it played out. The rapid conquest of largely open land was met with a rapid counteroffensive that placed the Nazis in a dreadful stalemate, and eventually a legendary counterattack. Had Stalin listened to his generals, it's likely they would have played into the Nazi's plans. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] Bloomcole@lemmy.world 12 points 5 months ago People who believe that fascists, whose aim and total reason of being was to combat communism would be partners with them. That is just embarrassing permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 18 points 5 months ago (12 children) The communists were never allies with the Nazis. A non-aggression pact is not an alliance. The communists spent the decade prior trying to form an anti-Nazi coalition force, such as the Anglo-French-Soviet Alliance which was pitched by the communists and rejected by the British and French. The communists hated the Nazis from the beginning, as the Nazi party rose to prominence by killing communists and labor organizers, cemented bourgeois rule, and was violently racist and imperialist, while the communists opposed all of that. When the many talks of alliances with the west all fell short, the Soviets reluctantly agreed to sign a non-agression pact, in order to delay the coming war that everyone knew was happening soon. Throughout the last decade, Britain, France, and other western countries had formed pacts with Nazi Germany, such as the Four-Power Pact, the German-French-Non-Agression Pact, and more. Molotov-Ribbentrop was unique among the non-agression pacts with Nazi Germany in that it was right on the eve of war, and was the first between the USSR and Nazi Germany. It was a last resort, when the west was content from the beginning with working alongside Hitler. Harry Truman, in 1941 in front of the Senate, stated: If we see that Germany is winning we ought to help Russia, and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible, although I don’t want to see Hitler victorious under any circumstances. Not only that, but it was the Soviet Union that was responsible for 4/5ths of total Nazi deaths, and winning the war against the Nazis. The Soviet Union did not agree to invade Poland with the Nazis, it was about spheres of influence and red lines the Nazis should not cross in Poland. When the USSR went into Poland, it stayed mostly to areas Poland had invaded and annexed a few decades prior. Should the Soviets have let Poland get entirely taken over by the Nazis, standing idle? The West made it clear that they were never going to help anyone against the Nazis until it was their turn to be targeted. Churchill did not take the Nazis as a serious threat, and was horrified when FDR and Stalin made a joke about executing Nazis. Churchill starved millions to death in India in preventable ways, and had this to say about it: I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion. The famine was their own fault for breeding like rabbits. Meanwhile, the soviet famine in the 1930s was the last major famine outside of wartime in the USSR, because collectivized farming achieved food security in a region where famine was common. As a consequence, life expectancy doubled: The Nazis and soviets were never allies. A non-aggression pact is not an alliance, and the non-aggression pact between the soviets and the Nazis was unique among the other non-aggression pacts in that it was on the eve of war. The soviets knew war was coming, and so bought more time to prepare. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Edie@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago (1 child) the Red Army would be given free passage through Poland and Romania Poland makes sense, but why Romania? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (8 children) The Soviet Union did not agree to invade Poland with the Nazis, it was about spheres of influence and red lines the Nazis should not cross in Poland. Spheres of influence were not agreements to jointly work together. When the USSR went into Poland, it stayed mostly to areas Poland had invaded and annexed a few decades prior. Should the Soviets have let Poland get entirely taken over by the Nazis, standing idle? The West made it clear that they were never going to help anyone against the Nazis until it was their turn to be targeted. Further, you're ignoring the Munich Agreement, where Czechoslovakia was given to the Nazis by the west. Not only was the west on good terms with the Nazis, signing many non-aggression pacts, they fostered healthy relationships. Finally, the Soviets were reasonably highly suspicious that Britain and Germany would ally. This was not unfounded, both were friendly enough until the outbreak of war. The Soviets desperately needed to make sure that the British and Germans would not ally, which reasonably would have happened had the Soviet Union taken unilateral action against the Nazis, rather than waiting to be attacked first. Stalin was said to have "obsessed over quantitative and qualitative" improvements in arms in the years leading up to World War II, and had soldiers stationed on high alert, preparing for a German attack. Despite the insistence of many Generals to muster forces on the German border, it was Stalin's insistence that forces not be so concentrated that prevented the Nazis from totally routing the Red Army, enabling the greatest counteroffensive in history. Hitler himself was quite honest at times, to himself at least: How can such a primitive people manage such technical achievements in such a short time! ... The fact that Stalin has raised the Russian standard of living is unquestionable. People don’t go hungry [at the moment when Operation Barbarossa was launched]. In general, it’s necessary to recognize that they have built factories of similar importance to Hermann Goering Reichswerke where two years ago nothing but unknown villages existed. We come across railway lines that aren’t even marked on our maps. The Soviets expected and planned for it, they were never allies with the Nazis. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (3 children) The USSR was aware of the defensive pact between the west and Poland, and the west declared war on Germany when they invaded Poland. So you do think that the Soviets shouldn't have entered Poland (after the government had already collapsed to secure the parts of Ukraine Lithuania and Belarus the Poles had occupied in the interwar period) and instead let the Nazis have full reign of the entire country until the Nazis decided to move further east? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) But diplomatic cables reveal that the Germans would not have kept this part of Poland as they intended to uphold the pact with the Soviets So if they didn't sign the pact or had left this request out of it as you seemingly desire they would have taken it wholesale? So again we're back to the Molotov-Ribbentrop saving eastern Poland (actually Western Ukraine Belarus and Lithuania that was simply occupied by Poland) from the Nazi scourge (for a time). Whether you agree on that the Soviets should have signed They absolutely should as the last power to do so allowing the time for them to build up the production capacity necessary cause 80% of the Nazi deaths of the war. It really seems like you would have preferred the Soviets leave Western Belarus Lithuania and Ukraine for dead and do nothing to delay the inevitable war with the Nazis to actually recover to fighting strength post revolution. Maybe that would have been the more pure option but it also would have been suicidal idiocy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 5 months ago (2 children) You're reading the spheres of influence aspect of Molotov-Ribbentrop with hermeneutics of suspicion. The implication on your end is that the Soviets expected the pact to hold, and to split Europe with Nazi Germany. This implies the expectation of a lasting alliance, which is immediately thrown out the window when you see just how much the Soviets were preparing for war against the Nazis, and that the Red Army was specifically told to watch out for German soldiers. Regarding Poland in particular, the Soviet sphere of influence, again, was made up of areas Poland had violently annexed from countries like Lithuania and Ukraine only a couple decades prior. The Soviets did not plan on conquesting Poland, they simply stated that Nazi Germany was not allowed to take former Soviet land. When Poland was invaded by Germany, the state was destroyed, and the Red Army took formerly Lithuanian, Ukrainian, etc areas, sparing them from the Holocaust. Would you want the entirety of Poland to go to the Nazis? Should the USSR have gone to war with Nazi Germany then and there, with the possibility of the west aiding the Nazis to take out the USSR? As for the West, again, you ignore that at the time they were quite honest with wanting to contain the Bolsheviks. They were more than willing to work with the Nazis, America even kept trading with them during the war, and American factories were deliberately not targeted in Nazi Germany even if Nazis were hiding in them. Truman was honest: If we see that Germany is winning we ought to help Russia, and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible, although I don’t want to see Hitler victorious under any circumstances. The whole time in the background, Britain and France were attempting to get the Soviets and Nazis to kill each other off. France spread faulty rumors of a fabricated speech by Stalin wanting to conquest Europe, Britain warned Germany of an impending soviet attack at the same time they warned Russia of Barbarossa, and the Nazis themselves were constantly posturing around either invading Britain, using Crete as a template for naval invasion, or making a deal with them. Before Barbarossa, Rudolf Hess flew to England, drawing the appearance of an impending deal. The entirety of the pre-War period was a tumultuous game of trying to decide what the lines of the war would be. The west made it clear that it hated the Soviets, and the Soviets made it clear that they hated the Nazis, but did not want to risk both the Nazis and the west coming after them, which would have been unwinnable most likely. Nobody could be confused of an actual Soviet-Nazi alliance. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Regarding Poland, again, this was territory Poland had conquered previously that historically belonged to countries in the Soviet Union. This was a return of territory. By no means did it come without bloodshed, but nevertheless the soviets were not nearly the butchers the Nazis were. As for the west conspiring to kill of the Soviet Union, and letting Germany do so, again, I gave naked testimony that this was the case. The Soviet Union wanted above all else to survive, the Nazis wanted new colonial territories, and the west wanted to not get colonized by the Nazis while also wanting the Soviets to stop being socialist. Do you have a source on a British warning to Germany? Wolkow W. K. (2003), Stalin wollte ein anderes Europa. Moskaus Außenpolitik 1940 bis 1968 und die Folgen, Edition Ost, Berlin, p. 110. The British warnings to the USSR were sadly ignored; Stalin did not order the Red Army to get ready for an invasion, which was partially why the first few months of the war went so disastrously poorly for the Soviets. I already explained this earlier. There was a massivedisinformation campaign, with feints from both Germany and the western powers. The first few weeks went as everyone expected, the Nazis advanced quickly over largely open land until running face to face with the full industrialized might of the Red Army. Goebbels' diary is quite telling of the change in attitude. On the 22nd-23rd of June, the Nazis attacked confidently. On July 2nd, Goebbels wrote the following: Overall, the fighting is hard and stubborn. We can in no way speak of a walk in the park. The red regime has mobilized the people. July 24th: We can have no doubt whatsoever about the fact that the Bolshevik regime, which has existed for nearly a quarter of a century, has left a deep mark on the peoples of the Soviet Union […]. It would be right, therefore, if we clearly informed the German people about the harshness of the struggle taking place in the East. The nation must be told that this operation is very difficult, but that we can and will survive it. August 1st: At the Führer’s headquarters […] they also openly admit that they were somewhat mistaken in their assessment of Soviet fighting power. The Bolsheviks are showing stronger resistance than we expected, and above all the material means at their disposal are greater than we had anticipated. August 9th: Privately, the Führer is very displeased for having allowed himself to be so deceived about the potential of the Bolsheviks by the reports [sent by German agents] coming from the Soviet Union. In particular, the underestimation of the enemy’s tanks and aircraft caused a great deal of trouble for our military operations. He suffers a lot because of this. We’re dealing with a serious crisis […]. The previous campaigns were a walk in the park by comparison […]. The Führer is not worried about the West […]. In our German thoroughness and objectivity we have always overestimated the enemy, except, in this case, the Bolsheviks. September 16th: We have totally underestimated the strength of the Bolsheviks. This was not a walk in the park for the Nazis, because the Soviets planned for it. Modern historiography makes it quite clear that the Nazis and Soviets were never allies in any capacity, for any length of time, and were always conspiring against each other with no expectation of actual peace, just biding their time before what they desired to be a favorable start to war. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago Regarding Poland, no, the Soviets were not worse. The Nazis subjected the Polish to the holocaust, and was committed to exterminating millions of Poles. One historian saying "in many ways, the soviets were worse" doesn't even mean the soviets were worse in total, yet that's the implication you bring. Historical evidence backs up that the Nazi colonization of Poland was a prototype for the Nazi colonization of the Soviets. As for Stalin and preparation for Barbarossa, again, reports conflicted. The Soviets knew that the Nazis were going to eventually invade, which is why Stalin had the Red Army prepare for German invasion. It wasn't that Stalin didn't mobilize the Red Army, it's that Stalin refused to muster forces on the border, which was exactly what the Nazis wanted. The Nazis wanted to quickly route the Red Army and march straight to Moscow relatively unopposed, instead they ran through largely empty, wide-open land quickly, before running into extreme resistance. If you don't trust Goebbels, there's plenty of other testemonies from Nazi officials, such as General Fedor von Bock in late July: The enemy seeks to recapture Smolensk at all costs and is constantly sending in new forces. The theory expressed by some that the enemy acts without plans is not reflected in the facts […]. We’ve verified that the Russians have brought up across the front a new and compact deployment of forces. In many areas they seek to go on the offensive. It’s surprising for an adversary which suffered so many blows; they must possess an unbelievable amount of resources, in fact our troops still lament the power of the enemy artillery. Here's an excerpt from Domenico Losurdo's book on Stalin: Long read as an example of political-military ignorance or even blind trust in the Third Reich, the extremely cautious approach taken by Stalin in the weeks leading up to the outbreak of hostilities now appears in an entirely different light: “The relatively open concentration of Wehrmacht forces along the Soviet border, the violations of Soviet airspace and numerous other provocations had only a single purpose: to draw the main forces of the Red Army as close to the border as possible. Hitler wanted to win the war in one gigantic battle.” Even valiant generals were enticed by this trap. Expecting an onslaught, they insisted on a massive relocation of troops toward the border. However, “Stalin categorically rejected this demand, insisting on the need to maintain large-scale reserves at a considerable distance from any conceivable front line.” After the war, studying the material left behind by the German architects of Operation Barbarossa, marshall Georgy K. Zhukov recognized the correctness of the line pursued by Stalin: “Hitler’s command was counting on us bringing our main forces up to the border with the intention of surrounding and destroying them.” Now, you may say that Zhukov was simply trying to play the political line. However, it's abundantly clear that this is in fact exactly how it played out. The rapid conquest of largely open land was met with a rapid counteroffensive that placed the Nazis in a dreadful stalemate, and eventually a legendary counterattack. Had Stalin listened to his generals, it's likely they would have played into the Nazi's plans. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Edie@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago (1 child) the Red Army would be given free passage through Poland and Romania Poland makes sense, but why Romania? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (8 children) The Soviet Union did not agree to invade Poland with the Nazis, it was about spheres of influence and red lines the Nazis should not cross in Poland. Spheres of influence were not agreements to jointly work together. When the USSR went into Poland, it stayed mostly to areas Poland had invaded and annexed a few decades prior. Should the Soviets have let Poland get entirely taken over by the Nazis, standing idle? The West made it clear that they were never going to help anyone against the Nazis until it was their turn to be targeted. Further, you're ignoring the Munich Agreement, where Czechoslovakia was given to the Nazis by the west. Not only was the west on good terms with the Nazis, signing many non-aggression pacts, they fostered healthy relationships. Finally, the Soviets were reasonably highly suspicious that Britain and Germany would ally. This was not unfounded, both were friendly enough until the outbreak of war. The Soviets desperately needed to make sure that the British and Germans would not ally, which reasonably would have happened had the Soviet Union taken unilateral action against the Nazis, rather than waiting to be attacked first. Stalin was said to have "obsessed over quantitative and qualitative" improvements in arms in the years leading up to World War II, and had soldiers stationed on high alert, preparing for a German attack. Despite the insistence of many Generals to muster forces on the German border, it was Stalin's insistence that forces not be so concentrated that prevented the Nazis from totally routing the Red Army, enabling the greatest counteroffensive in history. Hitler himself was quite honest at times, to himself at least: How can such a primitive people manage such technical achievements in such a short time! ... The fact that Stalin has raised the Russian standard of living is unquestionable. People don’t go hungry [at the moment when Operation Barbarossa was launched]. In general, it’s necessary to recognize that they have built factories of similar importance to Hermann Goering Reichswerke where two years ago nothing but unknown villages existed. We come across railway lines that aren’t even marked on our maps. The Soviets expected and planned for it, they were never allies with the Nazis. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (3 children) The USSR was aware of the defensive pact between the west and Poland, and the west declared war on Germany when they invaded Poland. So you do think that the Soviets shouldn't have entered Poland (after the government had already collapsed to secure the parts of Ukraine Lithuania and Belarus the Poles had occupied in the interwar period) and instead let the Nazis have full reign of the entire country until the Nazis decided to move further east? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) But diplomatic cables reveal that the Germans would not have kept this part of Poland as they intended to uphold the pact with the Soviets So if they didn't sign the pact or had left this request out of it as you seemingly desire they would have taken it wholesale? So again we're back to the Molotov-Ribbentrop saving eastern Poland (actually Western Ukraine Belarus and Lithuania that was simply occupied by Poland) from the Nazi scourge (for a time). Whether you agree on that the Soviets should have signed They absolutely should as the last power to do so allowing the time for them to build up the production capacity necessary cause 80% of the Nazi deaths of the war. It really seems like you would have preferred the Soviets leave Western Belarus Lithuania and Ukraine for dead and do nothing to delay the inevitable war with the Nazis to actually recover to fighting strength post revolution. Maybe that would have been the more pure option but it also would have been suicidal idiocy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 5 months ago (2 children) You're reading the spheres of influence aspect of Molotov-Ribbentrop with hermeneutics of suspicion. The implication on your end is that the Soviets expected the pact to hold, and to split Europe with Nazi Germany. This implies the expectation of a lasting alliance, which is immediately thrown out the window when you see just how much the Soviets were preparing for war against the Nazis, and that the Red Army was specifically told to watch out for German soldiers. Regarding Poland in particular, the Soviet sphere of influence, again, was made up of areas Poland had violently annexed from countries like Lithuania and Ukraine only a couple decades prior. The Soviets did not plan on conquesting Poland, they simply stated that Nazi Germany was not allowed to take former Soviet land. When Poland was invaded by Germany, the state was destroyed, and the Red Army took formerly Lithuanian, Ukrainian, etc areas, sparing them from the Holocaust. Would you want the entirety of Poland to go to the Nazis? Should the USSR have gone to war with Nazi Germany then and there, with the possibility of the west aiding the Nazis to take out the USSR? As for the West, again, you ignore that at the time they were quite honest with wanting to contain the Bolsheviks. They were more than willing to work with the Nazis, America even kept trading with them during the war, and American factories were deliberately not targeted in Nazi Germany even if Nazis were hiding in them. Truman was honest: If we see that Germany is winning we ought to help Russia, and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible, although I don’t want to see Hitler victorious under any circumstances. The whole time in the background, Britain and France were attempting to get the Soviets and Nazis to kill each other off. France spread faulty rumors of a fabricated speech by Stalin wanting to conquest Europe, Britain warned Germany of an impending soviet attack at the same time they warned Russia of Barbarossa, and the Nazis themselves were constantly posturing around either invading Britain, using Crete as a template for naval invasion, or making a deal with them. Before Barbarossa, Rudolf Hess flew to England, drawing the appearance of an impending deal. The entirety of the pre-War period was a tumultuous game of trying to decide what the lines of the war would be. The west made it clear that it hated the Soviets, and the Soviets made it clear that they hated the Nazis, but did not want to risk both the Nazis and the west coming after them, which would have been unwinnable most likely. Nobody could be confused of an actual Soviet-Nazi alliance. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Regarding Poland, again, this was territory Poland had conquered previously that historically belonged to countries in the Soviet Union. This was a return of territory. By no means did it come without bloodshed, but nevertheless the soviets were not nearly the butchers the Nazis were. As for the west conspiring to kill of the Soviet Union, and letting Germany do so, again, I gave naked testimony that this was the case. The Soviet Union wanted above all else to survive, the Nazis wanted new colonial territories, and the west wanted to not get colonized by the Nazis while also wanting the Soviets to stop being socialist. Do you have a source on a British warning to Germany? Wolkow W. K. (2003), Stalin wollte ein anderes Europa. Moskaus Außenpolitik 1940 bis 1968 und die Folgen, Edition Ost, Berlin, p. 110. The British warnings to the USSR were sadly ignored; Stalin did not order the Red Army to get ready for an invasion, which was partially why the first few months of the war went so disastrously poorly for the Soviets. I already explained this earlier. There was a massivedisinformation campaign, with feints from both Germany and the western powers. The first few weeks went as everyone expected, the Nazis advanced quickly over largely open land until running face to face with the full industrialized might of the Red Army. Goebbels' diary is quite telling of the change in attitude. On the 22nd-23rd of June, the Nazis attacked confidently. On July 2nd, Goebbels wrote the following: Overall, the fighting is hard and stubborn. We can in no way speak of a walk in the park. The red regime has mobilized the people. July 24th: We can have no doubt whatsoever about the fact that the Bolshevik regime, which has existed for nearly a quarter of a century, has left a deep mark on the peoples of the Soviet Union […]. It would be right, therefore, if we clearly informed the German people about the harshness of the struggle taking place in the East. The nation must be told that this operation is very difficult, but that we can and will survive it. August 1st: At the Führer’s headquarters […] they also openly admit that they were somewhat mistaken in their assessment of Soviet fighting power. The Bolsheviks are showing stronger resistance than we expected, and above all the material means at their disposal are greater than we had anticipated. August 9th: Privately, the Führer is very displeased for having allowed himself to be so deceived about the potential of the Bolsheviks by the reports [sent by German agents] coming from the Soviet Union. In particular, the underestimation of the enemy’s tanks and aircraft caused a great deal of trouble for our military operations. He suffers a lot because of this. We’re dealing with a serious crisis […]. The previous campaigns were a walk in the park by comparison […]. The Führer is not worried about the West […]. In our German thoroughness and objectivity we have always overestimated the enemy, except, in this case, the Bolsheviks. September 16th: We have totally underestimated the strength of the Bolsheviks. This was not a walk in the park for the Nazis, because the Soviets planned for it. Modern historiography makes it quite clear that the Nazis and Soviets were never allies in any capacity, for any length of time, and were always conspiring against each other with no expectation of actual peace, just biding their time before what they desired to be a favorable start to war. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago Regarding Poland, no, the Soviets were not worse. The Nazis subjected the Polish to the holocaust, and was committed to exterminating millions of Poles. One historian saying "in many ways, the soviets were worse" doesn't even mean the soviets were worse in total, yet that's the implication you bring. Historical evidence backs up that the Nazi colonization of Poland was a prototype for the Nazi colonization of the Soviets. As for Stalin and preparation for Barbarossa, again, reports conflicted. The Soviets knew that the Nazis were going to eventually invade, which is why Stalin had the Red Army prepare for German invasion. It wasn't that Stalin didn't mobilize the Red Army, it's that Stalin refused to muster forces on the border, which was exactly what the Nazis wanted. The Nazis wanted to quickly route the Red Army and march straight to Moscow relatively unopposed, instead they ran through largely empty, wide-open land quickly, before running into extreme resistance. If you don't trust Goebbels, there's plenty of other testemonies from Nazi officials, such as General Fedor von Bock in late July: The enemy seeks to recapture Smolensk at all costs and is constantly sending in new forces. The theory expressed by some that the enemy acts without plans is not reflected in the facts […]. We’ve verified that the Russians have brought up across the front a new and compact deployment of forces. In many areas they seek to go on the offensive. It’s surprising for an adversary which suffered so many blows; they must possess an unbelievable amount of resources, in fact our troops still lament the power of the enemy artillery. Here's an excerpt from Domenico Losurdo's book on Stalin: Long read as an example of political-military ignorance or even blind trust in the Third Reich, the extremely cautious approach taken by Stalin in the weeks leading up to the outbreak of hostilities now appears in an entirely different light: “The relatively open concentration of Wehrmacht forces along the Soviet border, the violations of Soviet airspace and numerous other provocations had only a single purpose: to draw the main forces of the Red Army as close to the border as possible. Hitler wanted to win the war in one gigantic battle.” Even valiant generals were enticed by this trap. Expecting an onslaught, they insisted on a massive relocation of troops toward the border. However, “Stalin categorically rejected this demand, insisting on the need to maintain large-scale reserves at a considerable distance from any conceivable front line.” After the war, studying the material left behind by the German architects of Operation Barbarossa, marshall Georgy K. Zhukov recognized the correctness of the line pursued by Stalin: “Hitler’s command was counting on us bringing our main forces up to the border with the intention of surrounding and destroying them.” Now, you may say that Zhukov was simply trying to play the political line. However, it's abundantly clear that this is in fact exactly how it played out. The rapid conquest of largely open land was met with a rapid counteroffensive that placed the Nazis in a dreadful stalemate, and eventually a legendary counterattack. Had Stalin listened to his generals, it's likely they would have played into the Nazi's plans. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] Edie@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago (1 child) the Red Army would be given free passage through Poland and Romania Poland makes sense, but why Romania? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (8 children) The Soviet Union did not agree to invade Poland with the Nazis, it was about spheres of influence and red lines the Nazis should not cross in Poland. Spheres of influence were not agreements to jointly work together. When the USSR went into Poland, it stayed mostly to areas Poland had invaded and annexed a few decades prior. Should the Soviets have let Poland get entirely taken over by the Nazis, standing idle? The West made it clear that they were never going to help anyone against the Nazis until it was their turn to be targeted. Further, you're ignoring the Munich Agreement, where Czechoslovakia was given to the Nazis by the west. Not only was the west on good terms with the Nazis, signing many non-aggression pacts, they fostered healthy relationships. Finally, the Soviets were reasonably highly suspicious that Britain and Germany would ally. This was not unfounded, both were friendly enough until the outbreak of war. The Soviets desperately needed to make sure that the British and Germans would not ally, which reasonably would have happened had the Soviet Union taken unilateral action against the Nazis, rather than waiting to be attacked first. Stalin was said to have "obsessed over quantitative and qualitative" improvements in arms in the years leading up to World War II, and had soldiers stationed on high alert, preparing for a German attack. Despite the insistence of many Generals to muster forces on the German border, it was Stalin's insistence that forces not be so concentrated that prevented the Nazis from totally routing the Red Army, enabling the greatest counteroffensive in history. Hitler himself was quite honest at times, to himself at least: How can such a primitive people manage such technical achievements in such a short time! ... The fact that Stalin has raised the Russian standard of living is unquestionable. People don’t go hungry [at the moment when Operation Barbarossa was launched]. In general, it’s necessary to recognize that they have built factories of similar importance to Hermann Goering Reichswerke where two years ago nothing but unknown villages existed. We come across railway lines that aren’t even marked on our maps. The Soviets expected and planned for it, they were never allies with the Nazis. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (3 children) The USSR was aware of the defensive pact between the west and Poland, and the west declared war on Germany when they invaded Poland. So you do think that the Soviets shouldn't have entered Poland (after the government had already collapsed to secure the parts of Ukraine Lithuania and Belarus the Poles had occupied in the interwar period) and instead let the Nazis have full reign of the entire country until the Nazis decided to move further east? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) But diplomatic cables reveal that the Germans would not have kept this part of Poland as they intended to uphold the pact with the Soviets So if they didn't sign the pact or had left this request out of it as you seemingly desire they would have taken it wholesale? So again we're back to the Molotov-Ribbentrop saving eastern Poland (actually Western Ukraine Belarus and Lithuania that was simply occupied by Poland) from the Nazi scourge (for a time). Whether you agree on that the Soviets should have signed They absolutely should as the last power to do so allowing the time for them to build up the production capacity necessary cause 80% of the Nazi deaths of the war. It really seems like you would have preferred the Soviets leave Western Belarus Lithuania and Ukraine for dead and do nothing to delay the inevitable war with the Nazis to actually recover to fighting strength post revolution. Maybe that would have been the more pure option but it also would have been suicidal idiocy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 5 months ago (2 children) You're reading the spheres of influence aspect of Molotov-Ribbentrop with hermeneutics of suspicion. The implication on your end is that the Soviets expected the pact to hold, and to split Europe with Nazi Germany. This implies the expectation of a lasting alliance, which is immediately thrown out the window when you see just how much the Soviets were preparing for war against the Nazis, and that the Red Army was specifically told to watch out for German soldiers. Regarding Poland in particular, the Soviet sphere of influence, again, was made up of areas Poland had violently annexed from countries like Lithuania and Ukraine only a couple decades prior. The Soviets did not plan on conquesting Poland, they simply stated that Nazi Germany was not allowed to take former Soviet land. When Poland was invaded by Germany, the state was destroyed, and the Red Army took formerly Lithuanian, Ukrainian, etc areas, sparing them from the Holocaust. Would you want the entirety of Poland to go to the Nazis? Should the USSR have gone to war with Nazi Germany then and there, with the possibility of the west aiding the Nazis to take out the USSR? As for the West, again, you ignore that at the time they were quite honest with wanting to contain the Bolsheviks. They were more than willing to work with the Nazis, America even kept trading with them during the war, and American factories were deliberately not targeted in Nazi Germany even if Nazis were hiding in them. Truman was honest: If we see that Germany is winning we ought to help Russia, and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible, although I don’t want to see Hitler victorious under any circumstances. The whole time in the background, Britain and France were attempting to get the Soviets and Nazis to kill each other off. France spread faulty rumors of a fabricated speech by Stalin wanting to conquest Europe, Britain warned Germany of an impending soviet attack at the same time they warned Russia of Barbarossa, and the Nazis themselves were constantly posturing around either invading Britain, using Crete as a template for naval invasion, or making a deal with them. Before Barbarossa, Rudolf Hess flew to England, drawing the appearance of an impending deal. The entirety of the pre-War period was a tumultuous game of trying to decide what the lines of the war would be. The west made it clear that it hated the Soviets, and the Soviets made it clear that they hated the Nazis, but did not want to risk both the Nazis and the west coming after them, which would have been unwinnable most likely. Nobody could be confused of an actual Soviet-Nazi alliance. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Regarding Poland, again, this was territory Poland had conquered previously that historically belonged to countries in the Soviet Union. This was a return of territory. By no means did it come without bloodshed, but nevertheless the soviets were not nearly the butchers the Nazis were. As for the west conspiring to kill of the Soviet Union, and letting Germany do so, again, I gave naked testimony that this was the case. The Soviet Union wanted above all else to survive, the Nazis wanted new colonial territories, and the west wanted to not get colonized by the Nazis while also wanting the Soviets to stop being socialist. Do you have a source on a British warning to Germany? Wolkow W. K. (2003), Stalin wollte ein anderes Europa. Moskaus Außenpolitik 1940 bis 1968 und die Folgen, Edition Ost, Berlin, p. 110. The British warnings to the USSR were sadly ignored; Stalin did not order the Red Army to get ready for an invasion, which was partially why the first few months of the war went so disastrously poorly for the Soviets. I already explained this earlier. There was a massivedisinformation campaign, with feints from both Germany and the western powers. The first few weeks went as everyone expected, the Nazis advanced quickly over largely open land until running face to face with the full industrialized might of the Red Army. Goebbels' diary is quite telling of the change in attitude. On the 22nd-23rd of June, the Nazis attacked confidently. On July 2nd, Goebbels wrote the following: Overall, the fighting is hard and stubborn. We can in no way speak of a walk in the park. The red regime has mobilized the people. July 24th: We can have no doubt whatsoever about the fact that the Bolshevik regime, which has existed for nearly a quarter of a century, has left a deep mark on the peoples of the Soviet Union […]. It would be right, therefore, if we clearly informed the German people about the harshness of the struggle taking place in the East. The nation must be told that this operation is very difficult, but that we can and will survive it. August 1st: At the Führer’s headquarters […] they also openly admit that they were somewhat mistaken in their assessment of Soviet fighting power. The Bolsheviks are showing stronger resistance than we expected, and above all the material means at their disposal are greater than we had anticipated. August 9th: Privately, the Führer is very displeased for having allowed himself to be so deceived about the potential of the Bolsheviks by the reports [sent by German agents] coming from the Soviet Union. In particular, the underestimation of the enemy’s tanks and aircraft caused a great deal of trouble for our military operations. He suffers a lot because of this. We’re dealing with a serious crisis […]. The previous campaigns were a walk in the park by comparison […]. The Führer is not worried about the West […]. In our German thoroughness and objectivity we have always overestimated the enemy, except, in this case, the Bolsheviks. September 16th: We have totally underestimated the strength of the Bolsheviks. This was not a walk in the park for the Nazis, because the Soviets planned for it. Modern historiography makes it quite clear that the Nazis and Soviets were never allies in any capacity, for any length of time, and were always conspiring against each other with no expectation of actual peace, just biding their time before what they desired to be a favorable start to war. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago Regarding Poland, no, the Soviets were not worse. The Nazis subjected the Polish to the holocaust, and was committed to exterminating millions of Poles. One historian saying "in many ways, the soviets were worse" doesn't even mean the soviets were worse in total, yet that's the implication you bring. Historical evidence backs up that the Nazi colonization of Poland was a prototype for the Nazi colonization of the Soviets. As for Stalin and preparation for Barbarossa, again, reports conflicted. The Soviets knew that the Nazis were going to eventually invade, which is why Stalin had the Red Army prepare for German invasion. It wasn't that Stalin didn't mobilize the Red Army, it's that Stalin refused to muster forces on the border, which was exactly what the Nazis wanted. The Nazis wanted to quickly route the Red Army and march straight to Moscow relatively unopposed, instead they ran through largely empty, wide-open land quickly, before running into extreme resistance. If you don't trust Goebbels, there's plenty of other testemonies from Nazi officials, such as General Fedor von Bock in late July: The enemy seeks to recapture Smolensk at all costs and is constantly sending in new forces. The theory expressed by some that the enemy acts without plans is not reflected in the facts […]. We’ve verified that the Russians have brought up across the front a new and compact deployment of forces. In many areas they seek to go on the offensive. It’s surprising for an adversary which suffered so many blows; they must possess an unbelievable amount of resources, in fact our troops still lament the power of the enemy artillery. Here's an excerpt from Domenico Losurdo's book on Stalin: Long read as an example of political-military ignorance or even blind trust in the Third Reich, the extremely cautious approach taken by Stalin in the weeks leading up to the outbreak of hostilities now appears in an entirely different light: “The relatively open concentration of Wehrmacht forces along the Soviet border, the violations of Soviet airspace and numerous other provocations had only a single purpose: to draw the main forces of the Red Army as close to the border as possible. Hitler wanted to win the war in one gigantic battle.” Even valiant generals were enticed by this trap. Expecting an onslaught, they insisted on a massive relocation of troops toward the border. However, “Stalin categorically rejected this demand, insisting on the need to maintain large-scale reserves at a considerable distance from any conceivable front line.” After the war, studying the material left behind by the German architects of Operation Barbarossa, marshall Georgy K. Zhukov recognized the correctness of the line pursued by Stalin: “Hitler’s command was counting on us bringing our main forces up to the border with the intention of surrounding and destroying them.” Now, you may say that Zhukov was simply trying to play the political line. However, it's abundantly clear that this is in fact exactly how it played out. The rapid conquest of largely open land was met with a rapid counteroffensive that placed the Nazis in a dreadful stalemate, and eventually a legendary counterattack. Had Stalin listened to his generals, it's likely they would have played into the Nazi's plans. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (3 children) The USSR was aware of the defensive pact between the west and Poland, and the west declared war on Germany when they invaded Poland. So you do think that the Soviets shouldn't have entered Poland (after the government had already collapsed to secure the parts of Ukraine Lithuania and Belarus the Poles had occupied in the interwar period) and instead let the Nazis have full reign of the entire country until the Nazis decided to move further east? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) But diplomatic cables reveal that the Germans would not have kept this part of Poland as they intended to uphold the pact with the Soviets So if they didn't sign the pact or had left this request out of it as you seemingly desire they would have taken it wholesale? So again we're back to the Molotov-Ribbentrop saving eastern Poland (actually Western Ukraine Belarus and Lithuania that was simply occupied by Poland) from the Nazi scourge (for a time). Whether you agree on that the Soviets should have signed They absolutely should as the last power to do so allowing the time for them to build up the production capacity necessary cause 80% of the Nazi deaths of the war. It really seems like you would have preferred the Soviets leave Western Belarus Lithuania and Ukraine for dead and do nothing to delay the inevitable war with the Nazis to actually recover to fighting strength post revolution. Maybe that would have been the more pure option but it also would have been suicidal idiocy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 5 months ago (2 children) You're reading the spheres of influence aspect of Molotov-Ribbentrop with hermeneutics of suspicion. The implication on your end is that the Soviets expected the pact to hold, and to split Europe with Nazi Germany. This implies the expectation of a lasting alliance, which is immediately thrown out the window when you see just how much the Soviets were preparing for war against the Nazis, and that the Red Army was specifically told to watch out for German soldiers. Regarding Poland in particular, the Soviet sphere of influence, again, was made up of areas Poland had violently annexed from countries like Lithuania and Ukraine only a couple decades prior. The Soviets did not plan on conquesting Poland, they simply stated that Nazi Germany was not allowed to take former Soviet land. When Poland was invaded by Germany, the state was destroyed, and the Red Army took formerly Lithuanian, Ukrainian, etc areas, sparing them from the Holocaust. Would you want the entirety of Poland to go to the Nazis? Should the USSR have gone to war with Nazi Germany then and there, with the possibility of the west aiding the Nazis to take out the USSR? As for the West, again, you ignore that at the time they were quite honest with wanting to contain the Bolsheviks. They were more than willing to work with the Nazis, America even kept trading with them during the war, and American factories were deliberately not targeted in Nazi Germany even if Nazis were hiding in them. Truman was honest: If we see that Germany is winning we ought to help Russia, and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible, although I don’t want to see Hitler victorious under any circumstances. The whole time in the background, Britain and France were attempting to get the Soviets and Nazis to kill each other off. France spread faulty rumors of a fabricated speech by Stalin wanting to conquest Europe, Britain warned Germany of an impending soviet attack at the same time they warned Russia of Barbarossa, and the Nazis themselves were constantly posturing around either invading Britain, using Crete as a template for naval invasion, or making a deal with them. Before Barbarossa, Rudolf Hess flew to England, drawing the appearance of an impending deal. The entirety of the pre-War period was a tumultuous game of trying to decide what the lines of the war would be. The west made it clear that it hated the Soviets, and the Soviets made it clear that they hated the Nazis, but did not want to risk both the Nazis and the west coming after them, which would have been unwinnable most likely. Nobody could be confused of an actual Soviet-Nazi alliance. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Regarding Poland, again, this was territory Poland had conquered previously that historically belonged to countries in the Soviet Union. This was a return of territory. By no means did it come without bloodshed, but nevertheless the soviets were not nearly the butchers the Nazis were. As for the west conspiring to kill of the Soviet Union, and letting Germany do so, again, I gave naked testimony that this was the case. The Soviet Union wanted above all else to survive, the Nazis wanted new colonial territories, and the west wanted to not get colonized by the Nazis while also wanting the Soviets to stop being socialist. Do you have a source on a British warning to Germany? Wolkow W. K. (2003), Stalin wollte ein anderes Europa. Moskaus Außenpolitik 1940 bis 1968 und die Folgen, Edition Ost, Berlin, p. 110. The British warnings to the USSR were sadly ignored; Stalin did not order the Red Army to get ready for an invasion, which was partially why the first few months of the war went so disastrously poorly for the Soviets. I already explained this earlier. There was a massivedisinformation campaign, with feints from both Germany and the western powers. The first few weeks went as everyone expected, the Nazis advanced quickly over largely open land until running face to face with the full industrialized might of the Red Army. Goebbels' diary is quite telling of the change in attitude. On the 22nd-23rd of June, the Nazis attacked confidently. On July 2nd, Goebbels wrote the following: Overall, the fighting is hard and stubborn. We can in no way speak of a walk in the park. The red regime has mobilized the people. July 24th: We can have no doubt whatsoever about the fact that the Bolshevik regime, which has existed for nearly a quarter of a century, has left a deep mark on the peoples of the Soviet Union […]. It would be right, therefore, if we clearly informed the German people about the harshness of the struggle taking place in the East. The nation must be told that this operation is very difficult, but that we can and will survive it. August 1st: At the Führer’s headquarters […] they also openly admit that they were somewhat mistaken in their assessment of Soviet fighting power. The Bolsheviks are showing stronger resistance than we expected, and above all the material means at their disposal are greater than we had anticipated. August 9th: Privately, the Führer is very displeased for having allowed himself to be so deceived about the potential of the Bolsheviks by the reports [sent by German agents] coming from the Soviet Union. In particular, the underestimation of the enemy’s tanks and aircraft caused a great deal of trouble for our military operations. He suffers a lot because of this. We’re dealing with a serious crisis […]. The previous campaigns were a walk in the park by comparison […]. The Führer is not worried about the West […]. In our German thoroughness and objectivity we have always overestimated the enemy, except, in this case, the Bolsheviks. September 16th: We have totally underestimated the strength of the Bolsheviks. This was not a walk in the park for the Nazis, because the Soviets planned for it. Modern historiography makes it quite clear that the Nazis and Soviets were never allies in any capacity, for any length of time, and were always conspiring against each other with no expectation of actual peace, just biding their time before what they desired to be a favorable start to war. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago Regarding Poland, no, the Soviets were not worse. The Nazis subjected the Polish to the holocaust, and was committed to exterminating millions of Poles. One historian saying "in many ways, the soviets were worse" doesn't even mean the soviets were worse in total, yet that's the implication you bring. Historical evidence backs up that the Nazi colonization of Poland was a prototype for the Nazi colonization of the Soviets. As for Stalin and preparation for Barbarossa, again, reports conflicted. The Soviets knew that the Nazis were going to eventually invade, which is why Stalin had the Red Army prepare for German invasion. It wasn't that Stalin didn't mobilize the Red Army, it's that Stalin refused to muster forces on the border, which was exactly what the Nazis wanted. The Nazis wanted to quickly route the Red Army and march straight to Moscow relatively unopposed, instead they ran through largely empty, wide-open land quickly, before running into extreme resistance. If you don't trust Goebbels, there's plenty of other testemonies from Nazi officials, such as General Fedor von Bock in late July: The enemy seeks to recapture Smolensk at all costs and is constantly sending in new forces. The theory expressed by some that the enemy acts without plans is not reflected in the facts […]. We’ve verified that the Russians have brought up across the front a new and compact deployment of forces. In many areas they seek to go on the offensive. It’s surprising for an adversary which suffered so many blows; they must possess an unbelievable amount of resources, in fact our troops still lament the power of the enemy artillery. Here's an excerpt from Domenico Losurdo's book on Stalin: Long read as an example of political-military ignorance or even blind trust in the Third Reich, the extremely cautious approach taken by Stalin in the weeks leading up to the outbreak of hostilities now appears in an entirely different light: “The relatively open concentration of Wehrmacht forces along the Soviet border, the violations of Soviet airspace and numerous other provocations had only a single purpose: to draw the main forces of the Red Army as close to the border as possible. Hitler wanted to win the war in one gigantic battle.” Even valiant generals were enticed by this trap. Expecting an onslaught, they insisted on a massive relocation of troops toward the border. However, “Stalin categorically rejected this demand, insisting on the need to maintain large-scale reserves at a considerable distance from any conceivable front line.” After the war, studying the material left behind by the German architects of Operation Barbarossa, marshall Georgy K. Zhukov recognized the correctness of the line pursued by Stalin: “Hitler’s command was counting on us bringing our main forces up to the border with the intention of surrounding and destroying them.” Now, you may say that Zhukov was simply trying to play the political line. However, it's abundantly clear that this is in fact exactly how it played out. The rapid conquest of largely open land was met with a rapid counteroffensive that placed the Nazis in a dreadful stalemate, and eventually a legendary counterattack. Had Stalin listened to his generals, it's likely they would have played into the Nazi's plans. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (3 children) The USSR was aware of the defensive pact between the west and Poland, and the west declared war on Germany when they invaded Poland. So you do think that the Soviets shouldn't have entered Poland (after the government had already collapsed to secure the parts of Ukraine Lithuania and Belarus the Poles had occupied in the interwar period) and instead let the Nazis have full reign of the entire country until the Nazis decided to move further east? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) But diplomatic cables reveal that the Germans would not have kept this part of Poland as they intended to uphold the pact with the Soviets So if they didn't sign the pact or had left this request out of it as you seemingly desire they would have taken it wholesale? So again we're back to the Molotov-Ribbentrop saving eastern Poland (actually Western Ukraine Belarus and Lithuania that was simply occupied by Poland) from the Nazi scourge (for a time). Whether you agree on that the Soviets should have signed They absolutely should as the last power to do so allowing the time for them to build up the production capacity necessary cause 80% of the Nazi deaths of the war. It really seems like you would have preferred the Soviets leave Western Belarus Lithuania and Ukraine for dead and do nothing to delay the inevitable war with the Nazis to actually recover to fighting strength post revolution. Maybe that would have been the more pure option but it also would have been suicidal idiocy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) But diplomatic cables reveal that the Germans would not have kept this part of Poland as they intended to uphold the pact with the Soviets So if they didn't sign the pact or had left this request out of it as you seemingly desire they would have taken it wholesale? So again we're back to the Molotov-Ribbentrop saving eastern Poland (actually Western Ukraine Belarus and Lithuania that was simply occupied by Poland) from the Nazi scourge (for a time). Whether you agree on that the Soviets should have signed They absolutely should as the last power to do so allowing the time for them to build up the production capacity necessary cause 80% of the Nazi deaths of the war. It really seems like you would have preferred the Soviets leave Western Belarus Lithuania and Ukraine for dead and do nothing to delay the inevitable war with the Nazis to actually recover to fighting strength post revolution. Maybe that would have been the more pure option but it also would have been suicidal idiocy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) But diplomatic cables reveal that the Germans would not have kept this part of Poland as they intended to uphold the pact with the Soviets So if they didn't sign the pact or had left this request out of it as you seemingly desire they would have taken it wholesale? So again we're back to the Molotov-Ribbentrop saving eastern Poland (actually Western Ukraine Belarus and Lithuania that was simply occupied by Poland) from the Nazi scourge (for a time). Whether you agree on that the Soviets should have signed They absolutely should as the last power to do so allowing the time for them to build up the production capacity necessary cause 80% of the Nazi deaths of the war. It really seems like you would have preferred the Soviets leave Western Belarus Lithuania and Ukraine for dead and do nothing to delay the inevitable war with the Nazis to actually recover to fighting strength post revolution. Maybe that would have been the more pure option but it also would have been suicidal idiocy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 5 months ago (2 children) You're reading the spheres of influence aspect of Molotov-Ribbentrop with hermeneutics of suspicion. The implication on your end is that the Soviets expected the pact to hold, and to split Europe with Nazi Germany. This implies the expectation of a lasting alliance, which is immediately thrown out the window when you see just how much the Soviets were preparing for war against the Nazis, and that the Red Army was specifically told to watch out for German soldiers. Regarding Poland in particular, the Soviet sphere of influence, again, was made up of areas Poland had violently annexed from countries like Lithuania and Ukraine only a couple decades prior. The Soviets did not plan on conquesting Poland, they simply stated that Nazi Germany was not allowed to take former Soviet land. When Poland was invaded by Germany, the state was destroyed, and the Red Army took formerly Lithuanian, Ukrainian, etc areas, sparing them from the Holocaust. Would you want the entirety of Poland to go to the Nazis? Should the USSR have gone to war with Nazi Germany then and there, with the possibility of the west aiding the Nazis to take out the USSR? As for the West, again, you ignore that at the time they were quite honest with wanting to contain the Bolsheviks. They were more than willing to work with the Nazis, America even kept trading with them during the war, and American factories were deliberately not targeted in Nazi Germany even if Nazis were hiding in them. Truman was honest: If we see that Germany is winning we ought to help Russia, and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible, although I don’t want to see Hitler victorious under any circumstances. The whole time in the background, Britain and France were attempting to get the Soviets and Nazis to kill each other off. France spread faulty rumors of a fabricated speech by Stalin wanting to conquest Europe, Britain warned Germany of an impending soviet attack at the same time they warned Russia of Barbarossa, and the Nazis themselves were constantly posturing around either invading Britain, using Crete as a template for naval invasion, or making a deal with them. Before Barbarossa, Rudolf Hess flew to England, drawing the appearance of an impending deal. The entirety of the pre-War period was a tumultuous game of trying to decide what the lines of the war would be. The west made it clear that it hated the Soviets, and the Soviets made it clear that they hated the Nazis, but did not want to risk both the Nazis and the west coming after them, which would have been unwinnable most likely. Nobody could be confused of an actual Soviet-Nazi alliance. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Regarding Poland, again, this was territory Poland had conquered previously that historically belonged to countries in the Soviet Union. This was a return of territory. By no means did it come without bloodshed, but nevertheless the soviets were not nearly the butchers the Nazis were. As for the west conspiring to kill of the Soviet Union, and letting Germany do so, again, I gave naked testimony that this was the case. The Soviet Union wanted above all else to survive, the Nazis wanted new colonial territories, and the west wanted to not get colonized by the Nazis while also wanting the Soviets to stop being socialist. Do you have a source on a British warning to Germany? Wolkow W. K. (2003), Stalin wollte ein anderes Europa. Moskaus Außenpolitik 1940 bis 1968 und die Folgen, Edition Ost, Berlin, p. 110. The British warnings to the USSR were sadly ignored; Stalin did not order the Red Army to get ready for an invasion, which was partially why the first few months of the war went so disastrously poorly for the Soviets. I already explained this earlier. There was a massivedisinformation campaign, with feints from both Germany and the western powers. The first few weeks went as everyone expected, the Nazis advanced quickly over largely open land until running face to face with the full industrialized might of the Red Army. Goebbels' diary is quite telling of the change in attitude. On the 22nd-23rd of June, the Nazis attacked confidently. On July 2nd, Goebbels wrote the following: Overall, the fighting is hard and stubborn. We can in no way speak of a walk in the park. The red regime has mobilized the people. July 24th: We can have no doubt whatsoever about the fact that the Bolshevik regime, which has existed for nearly a quarter of a century, has left a deep mark on the peoples of the Soviet Union […]. It would be right, therefore, if we clearly informed the German people about the harshness of the struggle taking place in the East. The nation must be told that this operation is very difficult, but that we can and will survive it. August 1st: At the Führer’s headquarters […] they also openly admit that they were somewhat mistaken in their assessment of Soviet fighting power. The Bolsheviks are showing stronger resistance than we expected, and above all the material means at their disposal are greater than we had anticipated. August 9th: Privately, the Führer is very displeased for having allowed himself to be so deceived about the potential of the Bolsheviks by the reports [sent by German agents] coming from the Soviet Union. In particular, the underestimation of the enemy’s tanks and aircraft caused a great deal of trouble for our military operations. He suffers a lot because of this. We’re dealing with a serious crisis […]. The previous campaigns were a walk in the park by comparison […]. The Führer is not worried about the West […]. In our German thoroughness and objectivity we have always overestimated the enemy, except, in this case, the Bolsheviks. September 16th: We have totally underestimated the strength of the Bolsheviks. This was not a walk in the park for the Nazis, because the Soviets planned for it. Modern historiography makes it quite clear that the Nazis and Soviets were never allies in any capacity, for any length of time, and were always conspiring against each other with no expectation of actual peace, just biding their time before what they desired to be a favorable start to war. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago Regarding Poland, no, the Soviets were not worse. The Nazis subjected the Polish to the holocaust, and was committed to exterminating millions of Poles. One historian saying "in many ways, the soviets were worse" doesn't even mean the soviets were worse in total, yet that's the implication you bring. Historical evidence backs up that the Nazi colonization of Poland was a prototype for the Nazi colonization of the Soviets. As for Stalin and preparation for Barbarossa, again, reports conflicted. The Soviets knew that the Nazis were going to eventually invade, which is why Stalin had the Red Army prepare for German invasion. It wasn't that Stalin didn't mobilize the Red Army, it's that Stalin refused to muster forces on the border, which was exactly what the Nazis wanted. The Nazis wanted to quickly route the Red Army and march straight to Moscow relatively unopposed, instead they ran through largely empty, wide-open land quickly, before running into extreme resistance. If you don't trust Goebbels, there's plenty of other testemonies from Nazi officials, such as General Fedor von Bock in late July: The enemy seeks to recapture Smolensk at all costs and is constantly sending in new forces. The theory expressed by some that the enemy acts without plans is not reflected in the facts […]. We’ve verified that the Russians have brought up across the front a new and compact deployment of forces. In many areas they seek to go on the offensive. It’s surprising for an adversary which suffered so many blows; they must possess an unbelievable amount of resources, in fact our troops still lament the power of the enemy artillery. Here's an excerpt from Domenico Losurdo's book on Stalin: Long read as an example of political-military ignorance or even blind trust in the Third Reich, the extremely cautious approach taken by Stalin in the weeks leading up to the outbreak of hostilities now appears in an entirely different light: “The relatively open concentration of Wehrmacht forces along the Soviet border, the violations of Soviet airspace and numerous other provocations had only a single purpose: to draw the main forces of the Red Army as close to the border as possible. Hitler wanted to win the war in one gigantic battle.” Even valiant generals were enticed by this trap. Expecting an onslaught, they insisted on a massive relocation of troops toward the border. However, “Stalin categorically rejected this demand, insisting on the need to maintain large-scale reserves at a considerable distance from any conceivable front line.” After the war, studying the material left behind by the German architects of Operation Barbarossa, marshall Georgy K. Zhukov recognized the correctness of the line pursued by Stalin: “Hitler’s command was counting on us bringing our main forces up to the border with the intention of surrounding and destroying them.” Now, you may say that Zhukov was simply trying to play the political line. However, it's abundantly clear that this is in fact exactly how it played out. The rapid conquest of largely open land was met with a rapid counteroffensive that placed the Nazis in a dreadful stalemate, and eventually a legendary counterattack. Had Stalin listened to his generals, it's likely they would have played into the Nazi's plans. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Regarding Poland, again, this was territory Poland had conquered previously that historically belonged to countries in the Soviet Union. This was a return of territory. By no means did it come without bloodshed, but nevertheless the soviets were not nearly the butchers the Nazis were. As for the west conspiring to kill of the Soviet Union, and letting Germany do so, again, I gave naked testimony that this was the case. The Soviet Union wanted above all else to survive, the Nazis wanted new colonial territories, and the west wanted to not get colonized by the Nazis while also wanting the Soviets to stop being socialist. Do you have a source on a British warning to Germany? Wolkow W. K. (2003), Stalin wollte ein anderes Europa. Moskaus Außenpolitik 1940 bis 1968 und die Folgen, Edition Ost, Berlin, p. 110. The British warnings to the USSR were sadly ignored; Stalin did not order the Red Army to get ready for an invasion, which was partially why the first few months of the war went so disastrously poorly for the Soviets. I already explained this earlier. There was a massivedisinformation campaign, with feints from both Germany and the western powers. The first few weeks went as everyone expected, the Nazis advanced quickly over largely open land until running face to face with the full industrialized might of the Red Army. Goebbels' diary is quite telling of the change in attitude. On the 22nd-23rd of June, the Nazis attacked confidently. On July 2nd, Goebbels wrote the following: Overall, the fighting is hard and stubborn. We can in no way speak of a walk in the park. The red regime has mobilized the people. July 24th: We can have no doubt whatsoever about the fact that the Bolshevik regime, which has existed for nearly a quarter of a century, has left a deep mark on the peoples of the Soviet Union […]. It would be right, therefore, if we clearly informed the German people about the harshness of the struggle taking place in the East. The nation must be told that this operation is very difficult, but that we can and will survive it. August 1st: At the Führer’s headquarters […] they also openly admit that they were somewhat mistaken in their assessment of Soviet fighting power. The Bolsheviks are showing stronger resistance than we expected, and above all the material means at their disposal are greater than we had anticipated. August 9th: Privately, the Führer is very displeased for having allowed himself to be so deceived about the potential of the Bolsheviks by the reports [sent by German agents] coming from the Soviet Union. In particular, the underestimation of the enemy’s tanks and aircraft caused a great deal of trouble for our military operations. He suffers a lot because of this. We’re dealing with a serious crisis […]. The previous campaigns were a walk in the park by comparison […]. The Führer is not worried about the West […]. In our German thoroughness and objectivity we have always overestimated the enemy, except, in this case, the Bolsheviks. September 16th: We have totally underestimated the strength of the Bolsheviks. This was not a walk in the park for the Nazis, because the Soviets planned for it. Modern historiography makes it quite clear that the Nazis and Soviets were never allies in any capacity, for any length of time, and were always conspiring against each other with no expectation of actual peace, just biding their time before what they desired to be a favorable start to war. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago Regarding Poland, no, the Soviets were not worse. The Nazis subjected the Polish to the holocaust, and was committed to exterminating millions of Poles. One historian saying "in many ways, the soviets were worse" doesn't even mean the soviets were worse in total, yet that's the implication you bring. Historical evidence backs up that the Nazi colonization of Poland was a prototype for the Nazi colonization of the Soviets. As for Stalin and preparation for Barbarossa, again, reports conflicted. The Soviets knew that the Nazis were going to eventually invade, which is why Stalin had the Red Army prepare for German invasion. It wasn't that Stalin didn't mobilize the Red Army, it's that Stalin refused to muster forces on the border, which was exactly what the Nazis wanted. The Nazis wanted to quickly route the Red Army and march straight to Moscow relatively unopposed, instead they ran through largely empty, wide-open land quickly, before running into extreme resistance. If you don't trust Goebbels, there's plenty of other testemonies from Nazi officials, such as General Fedor von Bock in late July: The enemy seeks to recapture Smolensk at all costs and is constantly sending in new forces. The theory expressed by some that the enemy acts without plans is not reflected in the facts […]. We’ve verified that the Russians have brought up across the front a new and compact deployment of forces. In many areas they seek to go on the offensive. It’s surprising for an adversary which suffered so many blows; they must possess an unbelievable amount of resources, in fact our troops still lament the power of the enemy artillery. Here's an excerpt from Domenico Losurdo's book on Stalin: Long read as an example of political-military ignorance or even blind trust in the Third Reich, the extremely cautious approach taken by Stalin in the weeks leading up to the outbreak of hostilities now appears in an entirely different light: “The relatively open concentration of Wehrmacht forces along the Soviet border, the violations of Soviet airspace and numerous other provocations had only a single purpose: to draw the main forces of the Red Army as close to the border as possible. Hitler wanted to win the war in one gigantic battle.” Even valiant generals were enticed by this trap. Expecting an onslaught, they insisted on a massive relocation of troops toward the border. However, “Stalin categorically rejected this demand, insisting on the need to maintain large-scale reserves at a considerable distance from any conceivable front line.” After the war, studying the material left behind by the German architects of Operation Barbarossa, marshall Georgy K. Zhukov recognized the correctness of the line pursued by Stalin: “Hitler’s command was counting on us bringing our main forces up to the border with the intention of surrounding and destroying them.” Now, you may say that Zhukov was simply trying to play the political line. However, it's abundantly clear that this is in fact exactly how it played out. The rapid conquest of largely open land was met with a rapid counteroffensive that placed the Nazis in a dreadful stalemate, and eventually a legendary counterattack. Had Stalin listened to his generals, it's likely they would have played into the Nazi's plans. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Regarding Poland, again, this was territory Poland had conquered previously that historically belonged to countries in the Soviet Union. This was a return of territory. By no means did it come without bloodshed, but nevertheless the soviets were not nearly the butchers the Nazis were. As for the west conspiring to kill of the Soviet Union, and letting Germany do so, again, I gave naked testimony that this was the case. The Soviet Union wanted above all else to survive, the Nazis wanted new colonial territories, and the west wanted to not get colonized by the Nazis while also wanting the Soviets to stop being socialist. Do you have a source on a British warning to Germany? Wolkow W. K. (2003), Stalin wollte ein anderes Europa. Moskaus Außenpolitik 1940 bis 1968 und die Folgen, Edition Ost, Berlin, p. 110. The British warnings to the USSR were sadly ignored; Stalin did not order the Red Army to get ready for an invasion, which was partially why the first few months of the war went so disastrously poorly for the Soviets. I already explained this earlier. There was a massivedisinformation campaign, with feints from both Germany and the western powers. The first few weeks went as everyone expected, the Nazis advanced quickly over largely open land until running face to face with the full industrialized might of the Red Army. Goebbels' diary is quite telling of the change in attitude. On the 22nd-23rd of June, the Nazis attacked confidently. On July 2nd, Goebbels wrote the following: Overall, the fighting is hard and stubborn. We can in no way speak of a walk in the park. The red regime has mobilized the people. July 24th: We can have no doubt whatsoever about the fact that the Bolshevik regime, which has existed for nearly a quarter of a century, has left a deep mark on the peoples of the Soviet Union […]. It would be right, therefore, if we clearly informed the German people about the harshness of the struggle taking place in the East. The nation must be told that this operation is very difficult, but that we can and will survive it. August 1st: At the Führer’s headquarters […] they also openly admit that they were somewhat mistaken in their assessment of Soviet fighting power. The Bolsheviks are showing stronger resistance than we expected, and above all the material means at their disposal are greater than we had anticipated. August 9th: Privately, the Führer is very displeased for having allowed himself to be so deceived about the potential of the Bolsheviks by the reports [sent by German agents] coming from the Soviet Union. In particular, the underestimation of the enemy’s tanks and aircraft caused a great deal of trouble for our military operations. He suffers a lot because of this. We’re dealing with a serious crisis […]. The previous campaigns were a walk in the park by comparison […]. The Führer is not worried about the West […]. In our German thoroughness and objectivity we have always overestimated the enemy, except, in this case, the Bolsheviks. September 16th: We have totally underestimated the strength of the Bolsheviks. This was not a walk in the park for the Nazis, because the Soviets planned for it. Modern historiography makes it quite clear that the Nazis and Soviets were never allies in any capacity, for any length of time, and were always conspiring against each other with no expectation of actual peace, just biding their time before what they desired to be a favorable start to war. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago Regarding Poland, no, the Soviets were not worse. The Nazis subjected the Polish to the holocaust, and was committed to exterminating millions of Poles. One historian saying "in many ways, the soviets were worse" doesn't even mean the soviets were worse in total, yet that's the implication you bring. Historical evidence backs up that the Nazi colonization of Poland was a prototype for the Nazi colonization of the Soviets. As for Stalin and preparation for Barbarossa, again, reports conflicted. The Soviets knew that the Nazis were going to eventually invade, which is why Stalin had the Red Army prepare for German invasion. It wasn't that Stalin didn't mobilize the Red Army, it's that Stalin refused to muster forces on the border, which was exactly what the Nazis wanted. The Nazis wanted to quickly route the Red Army and march straight to Moscow relatively unopposed, instead they ran through largely empty, wide-open land quickly, before running into extreme resistance. If you don't trust Goebbels, there's plenty of other testemonies from Nazi officials, such as General Fedor von Bock in late July: The enemy seeks to recapture Smolensk at all costs and is constantly sending in new forces. The theory expressed by some that the enemy acts without plans is not reflected in the facts […]. We’ve verified that the Russians have brought up across the front a new and compact deployment of forces. In many areas they seek to go on the offensive. It’s surprising for an adversary which suffered so many blows; they must possess an unbelievable amount of resources, in fact our troops still lament the power of the enemy artillery. Here's an excerpt from Domenico Losurdo's book on Stalin: Long read as an example of political-military ignorance or even blind trust in the Third Reich, the extremely cautious approach taken by Stalin in the weeks leading up to the outbreak of hostilities now appears in an entirely different light: “The relatively open concentration of Wehrmacht forces along the Soviet border, the violations of Soviet airspace and numerous other provocations had only a single purpose: to draw the main forces of the Red Army as close to the border as possible. Hitler wanted to win the war in one gigantic battle.” Even valiant generals were enticed by this trap. Expecting an onslaught, they insisted on a massive relocation of troops toward the border. However, “Stalin categorically rejected this demand, insisting on the need to maintain large-scale reserves at a considerable distance from any conceivable front line.” After the war, studying the material left behind by the German architects of Operation Barbarossa, marshall Georgy K. Zhukov recognized the correctness of the line pursued by Stalin: “Hitler’s command was counting on us bringing our main forces up to the border with the intention of surrounding and destroying them.” Now, you may say that Zhukov was simply trying to play the political line. However, it's abundantly clear that this is in fact exactly how it played out. The rapid conquest of largely open land was met with a rapid counteroffensive that placed the Nazis in a dreadful stalemate, and eventually a legendary counterattack. Had Stalin listened to his generals, it's likely they would have played into the Nazi's plans. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago Regarding Poland, no, the Soviets were not worse. The Nazis subjected the Polish to the holocaust, and was committed to exterminating millions of Poles. One historian saying "in many ways, the soviets were worse" doesn't even mean the soviets were worse in total, yet that's the implication you bring. Historical evidence backs up that the Nazi colonization of Poland was a prototype for the Nazi colonization of the Soviets. As for Stalin and preparation for Barbarossa, again, reports conflicted. The Soviets knew that the Nazis were going to eventually invade, which is why Stalin had the Red Army prepare for German invasion. It wasn't that Stalin didn't mobilize the Red Army, it's that Stalin refused to muster forces on the border, which was exactly what the Nazis wanted. The Nazis wanted to quickly route the Red Army and march straight to Moscow relatively unopposed, instead they ran through largely empty, wide-open land quickly, before running into extreme resistance. If you don't trust Goebbels, there's plenty of other testemonies from Nazi officials, such as General Fedor von Bock in late July: The enemy seeks to recapture Smolensk at all costs and is constantly sending in new forces. The theory expressed by some that the enemy acts without plans is not reflected in the facts […]. We’ve verified that the Russians have brought up across the front a new and compact deployment of forces. In many areas they seek to go on the offensive. It’s surprising for an adversary which suffered so many blows; they must possess an unbelievable amount of resources, in fact our troops still lament the power of the enemy artillery. Here's an excerpt from Domenico Losurdo's book on Stalin: Long read as an example of political-military ignorance or even blind trust in the Third Reich, the extremely cautious approach taken by Stalin in the weeks leading up to the outbreak of hostilities now appears in an entirely different light: “The relatively open concentration of Wehrmacht forces along the Soviet border, the violations of Soviet airspace and numerous other provocations had only a single purpose: to draw the main forces of the Red Army as close to the border as possible. Hitler wanted to win the war in one gigantic battle.” Even valiant generals were enticed by this trap. Expecting an onslaught, they insisted on a massive relocation of troops toward the border. However, “Stalin categorically rejected this demand, insisting on the need to maintain large-scale reserves at a considerable distance from any conceivable front line.” After the war, studying the material left behind by the German architects of Operation Barbarossa, marshall Georgy K. Zhukov recognized the correctness of the line pursued by Stalin: “Hitler’s command was counting on us bringing our main forces up to the border with the intention of surrounding and destroying them.” Now, you may say that Zhukov was simply trying to play the political line. However, it's abundantly clear that this is in fact exactly how it played out. The rapid conquest of largely open land was met with a rapid counteroffensive that placed the Nazis in a dreadful stalemate, and eventually a legendary counterattack. Had Stalin listened to his generals, it's likely they would have played into the Nazi's plans. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago Regarding Poland, no, the Soviets were not worse. The Nazis subjected the Polish to the holocaust, and was committed to exterminating millions of Poles. One historian saying "in many ways, the soviets were worse" doesn't even mean the soviets were worse in total, yet that's the implication you bring. Historical evidence backs up that the Nazi colonization of Poland was a prototype for the Nazi colonization of the Soviets. As for Stalin and preparation for Barbarossa, again, reports conflicted. The Soviets knew that the Nazis were going to eventually invade, which is why Stalin had the Red Army prepare for German invasion. It wasn't that Stalin didn't mobilize the Red Army, it's that Stalin refused to muster forces on the border, which was exactly what the Nazis wanted. The Nazis wanted to quickly route the Red Army and march straight to Moscow relatively unopposed, instead they ran through largely empty, wide-open land quickly, before running into extreme resistance. If you don't trust Goebbels, there's plenty of other testemonies from Nazi officials, such as General Fedor von Bock in late July: The enemy seeks to recapture Smolensk at all costs and is constantly sending in new forces. The theory expressed by some that the enemy acts without plans is not reflected in the facts […]. We’ve verified that the Russians have brought up across the front a new and compact deployment of forces. In many areas they seek to go on the offensive. It’s surprising for an adversary which suffered so many blows; they must possess an unbelievable amount of resources, in fact our troops still lament the power of the enemy artillery. Here's an excerpt from Domenico Losurdo's book on Stalin: Long read as an example of political-military ignorance or even blind trust in the Third Reich, the extremely cautious approach taken by Stalin in the weeks leading up to the outbreak of hostilities now appears in an entirely different light: “The relatively open concentration of Wehrmacht forces along the Soviet border, the violations of Soviet airspace and numerous other provocations had only a single purpose: to draw the main forces of the Red Army as close to the border as possible. Hitler wanted to win the war in one gigantic battle.” Even valiant generals were enticed by this trap. Expecting an onslaught, they insisted on a massive relocation of troops toward the border. However, “Stalin categorically rejected this demand, insisting on the need to maintain large-scale reserves at a considerable distance from any conceivable front line.” After the war, studying the material left behind by the German architects of Operation Barbarossa, marshall Georgy K. Zhukov recognized the correctness of the line pursued by Stalin: “Hitler’s command was counting on us bringing our main forces up to the border with the intention of surrounding and destroying them.” Now, you may say that Zhukov was simply trying to play the political line. However, it's abundantly clear that this is in fact exactly how it played out. The rapid conquest of largely open land was met with a rapid counteroffensive that placed the Nazis in a dreadful stalemate, and eventually a legendary counterattack. Had Stalin listened to his generals, it's likely they would have played into the Nazi's plans. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 16 points 5 months ago* (2 children) The purges were a popularly supported response to genuine threats and infiltration. They were not a misunderstanding, but they did exceed initial expectations, which is why they were stopped. As for Hitler (and the rest of the fascist movement), the Soviets (Stalin included) absolutely despised him. That's why the Soviets spent the 1930s ramping up industrial production as quickly as they could, and trying to form an anti-fascist coalition with the west (which the British and French tanked). Stalin was said to have "obsessed over quantitative and qualitative" improvements in arms in the years leading up to World War II, and had soldiers stationed on high alert, preparing for a German attack. Despite the insistence of many Generals to muster forces on the German border, it was Stalin's insistence that forces not be so concentrated that prevented the Nazis from totally routing the Red Army, enabling the greatest counteroffensive in history. Hitler himself was quite honest at times, to himself at least: How can such a primitive people manage such technical achievements in such a short time! ... The fact that Stalin has raised the Russian standard of living is unquestionable. People don’t go hungry [at the moment when Operation Barbarossa was launched]. In general, it’s necessary to recognize that they have built factories of similar importance to Hermann Goering Reichswerke where two years ago nothing but unknown villages existed. We come across railway lines that aren’t even marked on our maps. Statesian journalist and activist Anna Louise Strong actually met and spoke with Stalin, writing down her impressions: My first impression of him was vaguely disappointing. A stocky figure in a simple suit of khaki color, direct, unassuming, whose first concern was to know whether I understood Russian sufficiently to take part in discussion. Not very imposing for so great a man, I thought. Then we sat down rather casually, and Stalin was not even at the head of the table; Voroshilov was. Stalin took a place where he could see all our faces and started the talk by a pointed question to the man against whom I had complained. After that Stalin seemed to become a sort of background, against which other people’s comments went on. The brilliant wit of Kaganovich, the cheerful chuckle of Voroshilov, the characteristics of the lesser people called to consult, all suddenly stood out. I began to understand them all and like them; I even began to understand the editor against whom I had complained. Suddenly I myself was talking and getting my facts out faster and more clearly than I ever did in my life. People seemed to agree with me. Everything got to the point very fast and smoothly, with Stalin saying less than anyone. Afterward in thinking it over I realized how Stalin’s genius for listening helped each of us express ourselves and understand the others. I recalled his trick of repeating a word of mine either with questioning intonation or a slight emphasis, which suddenly made me feel I had either not quite seen the point or perhaps had overstated it, and so drove me to make it plainer. I recalled how he had done this to others also. Then I understood that his listening has been a dynamic force. This listening habit dates back to the early days of his revolutionary career. “I remember him very well from the early days of our Party,” said a veteran Bolshevik to me. “A quiet youth who sat at the edge of the committee, saying almost nothing, but listening very much. Toward the end he would make a few comments, sometimes merely as questions. Gradually we came to see that he always summed up best our joint thinking.” The description will be recognized by anyone who ever met Stalin. In any group he is usually last to express his opinion. He does not want to block the full expression of others, as he might easily do by speaking first. Besides this, he is always learning by listening. I highly recommended the book Stalin: History and Critique of a Black Legend by legendary communist Domenico Losurdo. Losurdo's unique method in the book is to use near-exclusively western, anti-communist sources, including Goebbels, Hitler, the New York Times, and so forth to examine not just Stalin, but to explain why Stalin is both so hated and yet so loved. It's a critique of the legend surrounding Stalin. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Hadriscus@jlai.lu 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Thanks for the references permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 5 months ago No problem! permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Hadriscus@jlai.lu 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Thanks for the references permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 5 months ago No problem! permalink fedilink source parent
[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 16 points 5 months ago (8 children) doesn’t believe in authoritarianism. Authoritarian is a meaningless pejorative. All states/countries/political groups etc. must be authoritarian by necessity in class society. For heaven’s sake, his own guards were scared of him. In fact, he died because he instilled so much fear into them. Major citation needed. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) Sankara is just as "tankie" as Stalin, Castro, Mao, Huey P. Newton, etc. The difference is that he was killed before Burkina Faso really had a chance to develop socialism, and as such his name hasn't been dragged through the mud. Regarding Stalin, there are several books I can recommend, but I'll pick just one. Stalin: The History and Critique of a Black Legend by Domenico Losurdo. Also not sure what you mean by saying you don't "believe in class society." What does this mean? Do you deny the existence of wage laborers and capitalists, or do you deny that classes have similar interests and philosophies that come more naturally based on how we live? Either way, we all love Sankara. Just because we disagree with bourgeois historiography on socialist leaders does not mean we don't also appreciate the ones that bourgeois historiography has largely left alone. permalink fedilink source parent [–] TiredTiger@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago You may not believe in classes, but that doesn't negate their existence. We will continue to support AES states (current and those sadly no longer extant). Go advocate for utopianism somewhere else. permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago someone more classy like Thomas Sankara. Aka someone who dies before they can be effectively vilified Western Marxism, the Fetish for Defeat, and Christian Culture (2020): https://redsails.org/western-marxism-and-christianity/ permalink fedilink source parent [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 16 points 5 months ago I don’t even believe in a class society. You don't think classes exist? Or you think it's possible to abolish classes at the press of a button without any transitionary phase? Either way this is idiotic. more classy like Thomas Sankara. Leader who believes the things I believe (Marxism Leninism) but was assassinated before the consolidation of the workers state began. You should probably investigate subjects before you speak on them. have several articles I can cite, but I’ll use this one because it jumps straight to the point. This site won't load but from dealing with them previously I vaguely remember them as a liberal nonsense publisher however if you can provide an archive link or equivalent I can give my proper views on this article in particular. permalink fedilink source parent [+] ordnance_qf_17_pounder@reddthat.com 7 points 5 months ago (3 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] culprit@lemmy.ml 7 points 5 months ago According to the journalist Sennen Andriamirado, who wrote two early books on Sankara, the Burkinabè leader believed that “Stalin killed Leninism by stifling the soviets and making all-powerful the Cheka [secret police], the military,” and other repressive bodies. Hmm, I wonder if protecting the socialist leadership was a factor in this. Too bad he got assassinated, proving that using state power to oppose the reactionary forces is critically important in a nascent socialist state. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) The majority of people who lived in Eastern European socialism regret its fall. The USSR had no colonies, it was an anti-imperialist, de-colonial federation. Sankara learned from Stalin, and was a Marxist-Leninist. Finally, equating Hitler and Stalin equates fascism with socialism, which originated as a form of Holocaust trivialization called Double Genocide Theory. I recommend reading Domenico Losurdo's Towards a Critique of the Category of Totalitarianism. permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 7 points 5 months ago* For example, Thomas Sankara was an actual decent person That's cool that being nice is the ceiling of revolutionary possibility in your brutally constrained mind, but the Chinese Communists did this: permalink fedilink source parent
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) Sankara is just as "tankie" as Stalin, Castro, Mao, Huey P. Newton, etc. The difference is that he was killed before Burkina Faso really had a chance to develop socialism, and as such his name hasn't been dragged through the mud. Regarding Stalin, there are several books I can recommend, but I'll pick just one. Stalin: The History and Critique of a Black Legend by Domenico Losurdo. Also not sure what you mean by saying you don't "believe in class society." What does this mean? Do you deny the existence of wage laborers and capitalists, or do you deny that classes have similar interests and philosophies that come more naturally based on how we live? Either way, we all love Sankara. Just because we disagree with bourgeois historiography on socialist leaders does not mean we don't also appreciate the ones that bourgeois historiography has largely left alone. permalink fedilink source parent [–] TiredTiger@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago You may not believe in classes, but that doesn't negate their existence. We will continue to support AES states (current and those sadly no longer extant). Go advocate for utopianism somewhere else. permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago someone more classy like Thomas Sankara. Aka someone who dies before they can be effectively vilified Western Marxism, the Fetish for Defeat, and Christian Culture (2020): https://redsails.org/western-marxism-and-christianity/ permalink fedilink source parent [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 16 points 5 months ago I don’t even believe in a class society. You don't think classes exist? Or you think it's possible to abolish classes at the press of a button without any transitionary phase? Either way this is idiotic. more classy like Thomas Sankara. Leader who believes the things I believe (Marxism Leninism) but was assassinated before the consolidation of the workers state began. You should probably investigate subjects before you speak on them. have several articles I can cite, but I’ll use this one because it jumps straight to the point. This site won't load but from dealing with them previously I vaguely remember them as a liberal nonsense publisher however if you can provide an archive link or equivalent I can give my proper views on this article in particular. permalink fedilink source parent [+] ordnance_qf_17_pounder@reddthat.com 7 points 5 months ago (3 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] culprit@lemmy.ml 7 points 5 months ago According to the journalist Sennen Andriamirado, who wrote two early books on Sankara, the Burkinabè leader believed that “Stalin killed Leninism by stifling the soviets and making all-powerful the Cheka [secret police], the military,” and other repressive bodies. Hmm, I wonder if protecting the socialist leadership was a factor in this. Too bad he got assassinated, proving that using state power to oppose the reactionary forces is critically important in a nascent socialist state. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) The majority of people who lived in Eastern European socialism regret its fall. The USSR had no colonies, it was an anti-imperialist, de-colonial federation. Sankara learned from Stalin, and was a Marxist-Leninist. Finally, equating Hitler and Stalin equates fascism with socialism, which originated as a form of Holocaust trivialization called Double Genocide Theory. I recommend reading Domenico Losurdo's Towards a Critique of the Category of Totalitarianism. permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 7 points 5 months ago* For example, Thomas Sankara was an actual decent person That's cool that being nice is the ceiling of revolutionary possibility in your brutally constrained mind, but the Chinese Communists did this: permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) Sankara is just as "tankie" as Stalin, Castro, Mao, Huey P. Newton, etc. The difference is that he was killed before Burkina Faso really had a chance to develop socialism, and as such his name hasn't been dragged through the mud. Regarding Stalin, there are several books I can recommend, but I'll pick just one. Stalin: The History and Critique of a Black Legend by Domenico Losurdo. Also not sure what you mean by saying you don't "believe in class society." What does this mean? Do you deny the existence of wage laborers and capitalists, or do you deny that classes have similar interests and philosophies that come more naturally based on how we live? Either way, we all love Sankara. Just because we disagree with bourgeois historiography on socialist leaders does not mean we don't also appreciate the ones that bourgeois historiography has largely left alone. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] TiredTiger@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago You may not believe in classes, but that doesn't negate their existence. We will continue to support AES states (current and those sadly no longer extant). Go advocate for utopianism somewhere else. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago someone more classy like Thomas Sankara. Aka someone who dies before they can be effectively vilified Western Marxism, the Fetish for Defeat, and Christian Culture (2020): https://redsails.org/western-marxism-and-christianity/ permalink fedilink source parent
[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 16 points 5 months ago I don’t even believe in a class society. You don't think classes exist? Or you think it's possible to abolish classes at the press of a button without any transitionary phase? Either way this is idiotic. more classy like Thomas Sankara. Leader who believes the things I believe (Marxism Leninism) but was assassinated before the consolidation of the workers state began. You should probably investigate subjects before you speak on them. have several articles I can cite, but I’ll use this one because it jumps straight to the point. This site won't load but from dealing with them previously I vaguely remember them as a liberal nonsense publisher however if you can provide an archive link or equivalent I can give my proper views on this article in particular. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] ordnance_qf_17_pounder@reddthat.com 7 points 5 months ago (3 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] culprit@lemmy.ml 7 points 5 months ago According to the journalist Sennen Andriamirado, who wrote two early books on Sankara, the Burkinabè leader believed that “Stalin killed Leninism by stifling the soviets and making all-powerful the Cheka [secret police], the military,” and other repressive bodies. Hmm, I wonder if protecting the socialist leadership was a factor in this. Too bad he got assassinated, proving that using state power to oppose the reactionary forces is critically important in a nascent socialist state. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) The majority of people who lived in Eastern European socialism regret its fall. The USSR had no colonies, it was an anti-imperialist, de-colonial federation. Sankara learned from Stalin, and was a Marxist-Leninist. Finally, equating Hitler and Stalin equates fascism with socialism, which originated as a form of Holocaust trivialization called Double Genocide Theory. I recommend reading Domenico Losurdo's Towards a Critique of the Category of Totalitarianism. permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 7 points 5 months ago* For example, Thomas Sankara was an actual decent person That's cool that being nice is the ceiling of revolutionary possibility in your brutally constrained mind, but the Chinese Communists did this: permalink fedilink source parent
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] culprit@lemmy.ml 7 points 5 months ago According to the journalist Sennen Andriamirado, who wrote two early books on Sankara, the Burkinabè leader believed that “Stalin killed Leninism by stifling the soviets and making all-powerful the Cheka [secret police], the military,” and other repressive bodies. Hmm, I wonder if protecting the socialist leadership was a factor in this. Too bad he got assassinated, proving that using state power to oppose the reactionary forces is critically important in a nascent socialist state. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) The majority of people who lived in Eastern European socialism regret its fall. The USSR had no colonies, it was an anti-imperialist, de-colonial federation. Sankara learned from Stalin, and was a Marxist-Leninist. Finally, equating Hitler and Stalin equates fascism with socialism, which originated as a form of Holocaust trivialization called Double Genocide Theory. I recommend reading Domenico Losurdo's Towards a Critique of the Category of Totalitarianism. permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 7 points 5 months ago* For example, Thomas Sankara was an actual decent person That's cool that being nice is the ceiling of revolutionary possibility in your brutally constrained mind, but the Chinese Communists did this: permalink fedilink source parent
[–] culprit@lemmy.ml 7 points 5 months ago According to the journalist Sennen Andriamirado, who wrote two early books on Sankara, the Burkinabè leader believed that “Stalin killed Leninism by stifling the soviets and making all-powerful the Cheka [secret police], the military,” and other repressive bodies. Hmm, I wonder if protecting the socialist leadership was a factor in this. Too bad he got assassinated, proving that using state power to oppose the reactionary forces is critically important in a nascent socialist state. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) The majority of people who lived in Eastern European socialism regret its fall. The USSR had no colonies, it was an anti-imperialist, de-colonial federation. Sankara learned from Stalin, and was a Marxist-Leninist. Finally, equating Hitler and Stalin equates fascism with socialism, which originated as a form of Holocaust trivialization called Double Genocide Theory. I recommend reading Domenico Losurdo's Towards a Critique of the Category of Totalitarianism. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 7 points 5 months ago* For example, Thomas Sankara was an actual decent person That's cool that being nice is the ceiling of revolutionary possibility in your brutally constrained mind, but the Chinese Communists did this: permalink fedilink source parent
[–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 19 points 5 months ago* (19 children) I'm leftist doesn't believe in authoritarianism Read Engels https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm Stalin wasn’t a good leader Excerpt from Stalin - the History and Critique of a Black Legend by Domenico LosurdoImpressive demonstrations of grief accompanied Stalin's passing. In his death throes, “millions of people crowded the center of Moscow to pay their last respects” to the dying leader. On March 5th, 1953, “millions of citizens cried over his loss as if they were mourning for a loved one."1 The same reaction took place in the most remote corners of this enormous country, for example, in a “small village” that, as soon as it learned of what had happened, fell into spontaneous and collective mourning.2 The generalized consternation went beyond the borders of the USSR: “Many cried as they passed through the streets of Budapest and Prague."3 Thousands of kilometers away from the socialist camp, in Israel the sorrowful reaction was also widespread: “All members of MAPAM, without exception, cried”, and this was a party in which “all the veteran leaders” and “nearly all the ex-combatants” belonged to. The suffering was mixed with fear. “The sun has set” was the title of Al Hamishmar, the newspaper of the Kibbutz movement. For a certain amount of time, such sentiments were shared by leading figures of the state and military apparatus: “Ninety officers who had participated in the 1948 war, the great war of Jewish independence, joined a clandestine armed organization that was pro-Soviet and revolutionary. Of these, eleven later became generals and one became a government minister, and are now honored as the founding fathers of Israel."4 In the West, it’s not just leaders and members of communist parties with ties to the Soviet Union who pay homage to the deceased leader. One historian (Isaac Deutscher) who was a fierce admirer of Trotsky, wrote an obituary full of acknowledgements: After three decades, the face of the Soviet Union has been completely transformed. What’s essential to Stalinism’s historical actions is this: it found a Russia that worked the land with wooden plows and left it as the owner of the atomic bomb. It elevated Russia to the rank of the second industrial power in the world, and it’s not merely a question of material progress and organization. A similar result could not have been achieved without a great cultural revolution in which an entire country has been sent to school to receive an extensive education. In summary, despite conditioned and in part disfigured by the Asiatic and despotic legacy of Tsarist Russia, in Stalin’s USSR “the socialist ideal has an innate and solid integrity.” In this historical evaluation there was no longer a place for Trotsky’s harsh accusations directed at the deceased leader. What sense was there in condemning Stalin as a traitor to the ideals of world revolution and as the capitulationist theorist of socialism in one country, at a time in which the new social order had expanded in Europe and in Asia and had broken “its national shell”?5 Ridiculed by Trotsky as a “small provincial man thrust into great world events, as if by a joke of history”,6 in 1950 Stalin had become, in the opinion of an illustrious philosopher (Alexandre Kojève), the incarnation of the Hegelian spirit of the world and called upon to unify and lead humanity, resorting to energetic methods, in practice combining wisdom and tyranny.7 Outside communist circles, or the communist aligned left, despite the escalating Cold War and the continued hot war in Korea, Stalin’s death brought out largely “respectful” or “balanced” obituaries in the West. At that time, “he was still considered a relatively benign dictator and even a statesman, and in the popular consciousness the affectionate memory of “uncle Joe” persisted, the great war-time leader that had guided his people to victory over Hitler and had helped save Europe from Nazi barbarity."8 The ideas, impressions and emotions of the years of the Grand Alliance hadn’t yet vanished, when―Deutscher recalled in 1948―statesmen and foreign generals were won over by the exceptional competence with which Stalin managed all the details of his war machine."9 Included among the figures “won over” was the man who, in his time, supported military intervention against the country that emerged out of the October Revolution, namely Winston Churchill, who with regards to Stalin had repeatedly expressed himself in these terms: “I like that man."10 On the occasion of the Tehran Conference in November, 1943, the British statesman had praised his Soviet counterpart as “Stalin the Great”: he was a worthy heir to Peter the Great; having saved his country, preparing it to defeat the invaders.11 Certain aspects had also fascinated Averell Harriman, the American ambassador to Moscow between 1943 and 1946, who always positively painted the Soviet leader with regard to military matters: “He appears to me better informed than Roosevelt and more realistic than Hitler, to a certain degree he’s the most efficient war leader."12 In 1944 Alcide De Gasperi had expressed himself in almost emphatic terms, having celebrated “the historic, secular and immense merit of the armies organized by the genius, Joseph Stalin." The recognition from the eminent Italian politician isn’t merely limited to the military sphere: When I see Hitler and Mussolini persecute men for their race, and invent that terrible anti-Jewish legislation that we’re familiar with, and when I see how the Russians, made up of 160 different races, seek their fusion, overcoming the existing differences between Asia and Europe, this attempt, this effort toward the unification of human society, let me just say that this is the work of a Christian, this is eminently universalistic in the Catholic sense.13 No less powerful or uncommon was the prestige that Stalin had enjoyed, and continued enjoying, among the great intellectuals. Harold J. Laski, a prestigious supporter of the British Labour Party, speaking in the fall of 1945 with Norberto Bobbio, had declared himself an “admirer of the Soviet Union” and its leader, describing him as someone who is “very wise."14 In that same year, Hannah Arendt wrote that the country led by Stalin distinguished itself for the “completely new and successful way of facing and solving national conflicts, of organizing different peoples on the basis of national equality”; it was a type of model, it was something “that every political and national movement should pay attention to."15 For his part, writing just before and soon after the end of World War II, Benedetto Croce recognized Stalin’s merit in having promoted freedom not only at the international level, thanks to the contribution given to the struggle against Nazi-fascism, but also in his own country. Indeed, who led the USSR was “a man gifted with political genius”, who carried out an important and positive historical role overall; with respect to pre-revolutionary Russia, “Sovietism has been an advance for freedom, just as, “in relation to the feudal regime”, the absolute monarchy was also “an advance for freedom and resulted in the greater advances that followed." The liberal philosopher’s doubts were focused on the future of the Soviet Union; however, these same doubts, by contrast, further highlighted the greatness of Stalin: he had taken the place of Lenin, in such a way that a genius had been followed by another, but what sort of successors would be given to the USSR by “Providence”?16 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 18 points 5 months ago (18 children) You understand so little you would likely have to unlearn effectively everything you "know" to even approach 0 understanding. I’m also finding it a little bit suspicious that Chinese people–whom are propping up the USSR–are replying to me. Fuck you first of all you massively racist fucking loser. You don't get to be suspicious whitey. For the record, China is still capitalist, Maybe, if you have no fucking idea what capitalism, socialism or communism actually mean. Hell, are Chinese people even legally allowed to use Lemmy? Not understanding the firewall award. Actual Gulag survivors have told stories about how horrific it was to be in those camps, too. Gulag archipelago reader award. (A book so terribly it's been disavowed by everyone involved bar the main author) Chinese cruelty toward the Uyghurs? Depends do you mean the real issues that occured during the crackdown on ETIM or the Zenz/US state department fantasy. Or the children working in factories and producing carcinogenic products for Shein for next to no money? Views stuck decades in the past award. What about the Tianamen square massacre? Categorically not a massacre but a clash between violent rioters and the military acting as riot police at the time, also funnily enough none of the violence was actually in the square. greenwash I don't think you know what this word means The West is pretty evil, but let’s not greenwash the USSR or China. "My country is evil and constantly lies but I also believe everything they say about their ideological enemies" permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 18 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 months ago (2 children) I do agree that we could learn from China, but there's also a damn good reason why their phones are banned in multiple countries. Yes, because the US started a trade war with them because they can't compete (in EVs also), and a few of their vassal states followed suit. Considering that China is known for its heavy censorship and is in good cahoots with Russia Sources on this? The PRC only blocks western surveillance platforms because they're incredibly dangerous to let them loose in your country. They're one of the few countries not naive enough to let facebook and google take over their social media landscape. https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/main/socialism_faq.md#what-about-the-tiananmen-square-massacre permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 13 points 5 months ago I banned after this, reading further down and seeing them get more and more virulently racist. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago Selling products is not capitalism by itself. Capitalism is a system where private ownership is the principal aspect, and capitalists control the state. Socialism, on the other hand, is a system where public ownership is principal, and the working classes control the state. The backbone and commanding heights of China's economy are publicly owned, and the working classes control the state, ergo it is socialist. Billionaires exist because private property exists, and private property exists because it speeds up development and integrates China with the global economy. This is a tradeoff used to build up the productive forces as quickly as possible, so that the social surplus can be redirected to developing underdeveloped regions, and because developed industry is easier to publicly own and plan. As these private firms grow, they are more tightly controlled and/or folded into the public sector. Average working hours in China are 46 hours per week, not 75. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 14 points 5 months ago In china, the state controls capital. In America, capital controls the state permalink fedilink source parent [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 17 points 5 months ago (3 children) I wrote a more direct reply to this, but I have come to realise that in this situation it would most likely be unproductive. You appear to be a very new leftist of some description: you seem to like the idea of socialism or communism, but you do not yet seem to have a firm grasp of what they actually entail. So instead of arguing point by point, I am going to explain what socialism is, why China has been socialist since 1949, and then add some book and article recommendations so you can begin studying the question more seriously on your own. To start, we have to define a term that is commonly used but rarely properly understood: the state. Many people use “the state” and “the government” interchangeably, but this is not accurate. The state is specifically the organised force by which class antagonisms are mediated through the rule of one class over others. The government, on the other hand, broadly refers to the administration, coordination, planning, record-keeping, infrastructure management, public decision-making, and the organisation of social production required by advanced societies. This distinction will be important later. Next, it is important to define socialism. Socialism is the transitionary period between capitalism and communism. It still contains many contradictions inherited from capitalism: classes, class struggle, uneven development, commodity production, wages, bureaucracy, ideological struggle, and often limited market mechanisms. Socialism is not “when everything is already communist.” It is the period in which the proletariat holds political power and uses that power to transform society, develop the productive forces, suppress reaction, and gradually overcome the material basis of class society. This stands in contrast to communism, where class society has been abolished as a meaningful social reality. Communism is classless because there are no longer opposed classes standing in antagonistic relation to one another (as only a single class, the proletariat, remain after the other classes have been proletarianised during the socialist period). It is stateless because, once class antagonisms have disappeared, the state as an instrument of class rule no longer has a function and withers away. This of course does not mean that organisation, administration, planning, or collective decision-making (the government) disappear. It means that the coercive state as an instrument of class domination disappears. At this point you might ask: if contradictions remain under socialism, how is it different from capitalism? That is a reasonable question. The answer rests on one primary and one secondary characteristic. The primary question is: which class commands the state? Under socialism, the proletariat commands the state through the people’s democratic dictatorship, also called the dictatorship of the proletariat. Under capitalism, the bourgeoisie commands the state, which communists refer to as the dictatorship of capital (even if they have a liberal democratic cascade). The secondary question is: which mode of ownership holds primacy, public ownership or private ownership? This is secondary because public ownership under the dictatorship of capital functions as state capitalism, while public ownership under the dictatorship of the proletariat is part of socialist construction. Ownership forms matter, but they cannot be separated from the class character of political power. Now, with this groundwork laid, we can finally look properly at the Chinese situation. China has been socialist since October 1, 1949, because the old landlord-bureaucrat-comprador state was destroyed and replaced by a people’s democratic dictatorship led by the working class through the Communist Party. The Communist Party of China has more than 100 million members as of the end of 2024 (slightly over 1/14 people). The commanding heights of the economy were brought under public ownership and workers state direction. The new state was built to suppress reaction, defend sovereignty, develop the productive forces, and transform society. In China, the bourgeoisie still exists, but it does not rule as a class. Capitalists can own firms in non-commanding sectors, make profits, and accumulate wealth within limits, because developing the productive forces still serves necessary social goals at China’s current stage of development. But they do not command the state, the army, the land system, the central banking system, or the strategic direction of the economy. They do not stand above the people or above the people's organised political instrument, the Communist Party, as a sovereign power. When capital conflicts with the long-term interests of socialist construction, it is disciplined, subordinated, investigated, broken up, fined, or otherwise brought to heel. Jack Ma and Ant Group is a useful example: its $37 billion IPO was suspended in 2020 and Jack Ma was made step away from public life as he attempted to put his profit before the benefits of the people by pushing for loosening banking regulations so he could provide micro loans. Foreign capitalists spent years crying about this as it showed the truth capital holds no power in China. To put it briefly: China is socialist because the proletarian-led state holds political power, commands the strategic economy, subordinates capital to national and social development, suppresses reactionary threats, and continues the long transition out of capitalism under conditions of imperialist encirclement, uneven development, and a still-existing world capitalist system. It would also be remiss not to mention that much of what you “know” about China has been manufactured through a mix of exaggeration, selective framing, omission, and outright lies. For example, you have likely heard about “996” as if it represents Chinese labour law or the normal working life of the whole country. In reality, 996 was an issue in ~40 of the large tech firms around the 2019 tech boom and was quickly ruled illegal which it now has been for half a decade. For a proper explanation on how this kind of ideological manufacture happens, I would recommend reading Michael Parenti’s Inventing Reality. Further reading recommendations: I have to a plug @Cowbee@lemmy.ml and their beginner reading list But for my recommendations more directly related to the topic at hand I would recommend: Engels: The Principles of Communism Marx and Engels: The Communist Manifesto Engels: Socialism: Utopian and Scientific Marx: Wage Labour and Capital Marx: Value, Price and Profit Marx: Critique of the Gotha Programme Lenin: The State and Revolution Lenin: The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade Kautsky Lenin: Left-Wing Communism: An Infantile Disorder Lenin: Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism Stalin: Foundations of Leninism Stalin: Economic Problems of Socialism in the USSR Mao Zedong: On Practice Mao Zedong: On Contradiction Mao Zedong: On the Correct Handling of Contradictions Among the People Mao Zedong: On New Democracy Mao Zedong: Report on an Investigation of the Peasant Movement in Hunan Mao Zedong: On Protracted War Deng Xiaoping: Build Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Deng Xiaoping: We Must Follow Our Own Road in Economic Development Xi Jinping: Uphold and Develop Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Xi Jinping: The Governance of China Roland Boer: Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Rong Zhaozi: Productivity, Public Capital, and Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Carlos Martinez: The East Is Still Red: Chinese Socialism in the 21st Century Roderic Day: China Has Billionaires Michael Parenti: Blackshirts and Reds Michael Parenti: Inventing Reality Walter Rodney: How Europe Underdeveloped Africa Kwame Nkrumah: Neo-Colonialism: The Last Stage of Imperialism Vijay Prashad: Washington Bullets J. Sakai: Settlers: The Mythology of the White Proletariat I understand having such a long list dumped on you is likely off-putting however that's the unfortunate truth of being a real socialist/communist, constant reading, education and investigation is a must. If you have any specific questions on any of them I can try help you if need be. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 17 points 5 months ago (1 child) Excellent write-up I'd like to point to one thing though China has been socialist since October 1, 1949, because the old landlord-bureaucrat-comprador state was destroyed and replaced by a people’s democratic dictatorship led by the working class through the Communist Party. This doesn't mean anything to a westerner. What westerners hear is "The communist party officials presume/claim to speak in the interest of the working class with no direct input from them". Since this is what almost every party in the west has done since parliaments became a thing. The ones that didn't aren't included in textbooks. And since you're speaking positively of such a party you must be "shilling" for them. I know adding the "how" of how workers shape and influence the state would make your comment even longer, but as it is to most it's just an unbelievable, meaningless phrase. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 months ago Yeah I 100% agree but also felt that it was long enough that it was 50/50 they'd actually read past the first few lines anyway so I could clarify in any follow-ups if they did and if they didn't then it was fine as is anyway. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 13 points 5 months ago Thanks for the shoutout, and excellent comment as always! permalink fedilink source parent [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) How does the firewall work if you don't mind me asking? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (6 children) Just to clarify given the context do you mean the how as in the actual mechanism or the why it was put in place etc? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (5 children) Probably how it works. To my understanding it was put in place to keep out western companies and media preying upon people? But I'm honestly very ignorant on most of this permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (4 children) On how it works: It’s effectively an IP/domain/protocol blacklist. So if you break the rules for example by refusing to host Chinese user data on servers in China as is required by law you get out on the list and your site is blocked. Other things blocked are domains commonly used for spam e.g. .ml is blocked by the firewall as it was a free domain commonly used for spam. So I'm using a VPN as all .ml sites are blocked (as far as I'm aware, there might be some who petitioned their way off but I don't know) On why it was put in place: The firewall was created to foster and protect China’s fledgling digital infrastructure and data sovereignty. Many countries regulate foreign platforms and data flows. China built its own ecosystem instead of depending on foreign companies. We have seen what happens when foreign platforms operate without local oversight: Facebook facilitating genocide in Myanmar, coordinated anti-vax disinformation campaigns in Southeast Asia, algorithm-driven radicalization, etc. The firewall makes those kinds of external influence operations harder or close to impossible to run at scale. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) Thank you for the explanation! Does it also keep information from China getting to other places? Or is that more of the corpos and other countries keeping China's news and what not out of Western spaces? I find it very hard to find things out of rare cases like when I was on Red Note for a bit. I wasn't sure if the firewall had anything to do with that or if its more western influences, or a bit of both? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago (2 children) No the firewall is one-way generally speaking. The fact foreign news agencys need a license to report in China probably doesn't help but it is almost entirely down to the fact that corpos and the countries they own don't actually want to report factual information about China and much prefer NED funded NGOs and but at what cost speculation about whatever China announces. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Ah okay. Thank you so much for the information! I really appreciate it! permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago O7 permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 18 points 5 months ago (18 children) You understand so little you would likely have to unlearn effectively everything you "know" to even approach 0 understanding. I’m also finding it a little bit suspicious that Chinese people–whom are propping up the USSR–are replying to me. Fuck you first of all you massively racist fucking loser. You don't get to be suspicious whitey. For the record, China is still capitalist, Maybe, if you have no fucking idea what capitalism, socialism or communism actually mean. Hell, are Chinese people even legally allowed to use Lemmy? Not understanding the firewall award. Actual Gulag survivors have told stories about how horrific it was to be in those camps, too. Gulag archipelago reader award. (A book so terribly it's been disavowed by everyone involved bar the main author) Chinese cruelty toward the Uyghurs? Depends do you mean the real issues that occured during the crackdown on ETIM or the Zenz/US state department fantasy. Or the children working in factories and producing carcinogenic products for Shein for next to no money? Views stuck decades in the past award. What about the Tianamen square massacre? Categorically not a massacre but a clash between violent rioters and the military acting as riot police at the time, also funnily enough none of the violence was actually in the square. greenwash I don't think you know what this word means The West is pretty evil, but let’s not greenwash the USSR or China. "My country is evil and constantly lies but I also believe everything they say about their ideological enemies" permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 18 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 months ago (2 children) I do agree that we could learn from China, but there's also a damn good reason why their phones are banned in multiple countries. Yes, because the US started a trade war with them because they can't compete (in EVs also), and a few of their vassal states followed suit. Considering that China is known for its heavy censorship and is in good cahoots with Russia Sources on this? The PRC only blocks western surveillance platforms because they're incredibly dangerous to let them loose in your country. They're one of the few countries not naive enough to let facebook and google take over their social media landscape. https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/main/socialism_faq.md#what-about-the-tiananmen-square-massacre permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 13 points 5 months ago I banned after this, reading further down and seeing them get more and more virulently racist. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago Selling products is not capitalism by itself. Capitalism is a system where private ownership is the principal aspect, and capitalists control the state. Socialism, on the other hand, is a system where public ownership is principal, and the working classes control the state. The backbone and commanding heights of China's economy are publicly owned, and the working classes control the state, ergo it is socialist. Billionaires exist because private property exists, and private property exists because it speeds up development and integrates China with the global economy. This is a tradeoff used to build up the productive forces as quickly as possible, so that the social surplus can be redirected to developing underdeveloped regions, and because developed industry is easier to publicly own and plan. As these private firms grow, they are more tightly controlled and/or folded into the public sector. Average working hours in China are 46 hours per week, not 75. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 14 points 5 months ago In china, the state controls capital. In America, capital controls the state permalink fedilink source parent [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 17 points 5 months ago (3 children) I wrote a more direct reply to this, but I have come to realise that in this situation it would most likely be unproductive. You appear to be a very new leftist of some description: you seem to like the idea of socialism or communism, but you do not yet seem to have a firm grasp of what they actually entail. So instead of arguing point by point, I am going to explain what socialism is, why China has been socialist since 1949, and then add some book and article recommendations so you can begin studying the question more seriously on your own. To start, we have to define a term that is commonly used but rarely properly understood: the state. Many people use “the state” and “the government” interchangeably, but this is not accurate. The state is specifically the organised force by which class antagonisms are mediated through the rule of one class over others. The government, on the other hand, broadly refers to the administration, coordination, planning, record-keeping, infrastructure management, public decision-making, and the organisation of social production required by advanced societies. This distinction will be important later. Next, it is important to define socialism. Socialism is the transitionary period between capitalism and communism. It still contains many contradictions inherited from capitalism: classes, class struggle, uneven development, commodity production, wages, bureaucracy, ideological struggle, and often limited market mechanisms. Socialism is not “when everything is already communist.” It is the period in which the proletariat holds political power and uses that power to transform society, develop the productive forces, suppress reaction, and gradually overcome the material basis of class society. This stands in contrast to communism, where class society has been abolished as a meaningful social reality. Communism is classless because there are no longer opposed classes standing in antagonistic relation to one another (as only a single class, the proletariat, remain after the other classes have been proletarianised during the socialist period). It is stateless because, once class antagonisms have disappeared, the state as an instrument of class rule no longer has a function and withers away. This of course does not mean that organisation, administration, planning, or collective decision-making (the government) disappear. It means that the coercive state as an instrument of class domination disappears. At this point you might ask: if contradictions remain under socialism, how is it different from capitalism? That is a reasonable question. The answer rests on one primary and one secondary characteristic. The primary question is: which class commands the state? Under socialism, the proletariat commands the state through the people’s democratic dictatorship, also called the dictatorship of the proletariat. Under capitalism, the bourgeoisie commands the state, which communists refer to as the dictatorship of capital (even if they have a liberal democratic cascade). The secondary question is: which mode of ownership holds primacy, public ownership or private ownership? This is secondary because public ownership under the dictatorship of capital functions as state capitalism, while public ownership under the dictatorship of the proletariat is part of socialist construction. Ownership forms matter, but they cannot be separated from the class character of political power. Now, with this groundwork laid, we can finally look properly at the Chinese situation. China has been socialist since October 1, 1949, because the old landlord-bureaucrat-comprador state was destroyed and replaced by a people’s democratic dictatorship led by the working class through the Communist Party. The Communist Party of China has more than 100 million members as of the end of 2024 (slightly over 1/14 people). The commanding heights of the economy were brought under public ownership and workers state direction. The new state was built to suppress reaction, defend sovereignty, develop the productive forces, and transform society. In China, the bourgeoisie still exists, but it does not rule as a class. Capitalists can own firms in non-commanding sectors, make profits, and accumulate wealth within limits, because developing the productive forces still serves necessary social goals at China’s current stage of development. But they do not command the state, the army, the land system, the central banking system, or the strategic direction of the economy. They do not stand above the people or above the people's organised political instrument, the Communist Party, as a sovereign power. When capital conflicts with the long-term interests of socialist construction, it is disciplined, subordinated, investigated, broken up, fined, or otherwise brought to heel. Jack Ma and Ant Group is a useful example: its $37 billion IPO was suspended in 2020 and Jack Ma was made step away from public life as he attempted to put his profit before the benefits of the people by pushing for loosening banking regulations so he could provide micro loans. Foreign capitalists spent years crying about this as it showed the truth capital holds no power in China. To put it briefly: China is socialist because the proletarian-led state holds political power, commands the strategic economy, subordinates capital to national and social development, suppresses reactionary threats, and continues the long transition out of capitalism under conditions of imperialist encirclement, uneven development, and a still-existing world capitalist system. It would also be remiss not to mention that much of what you “know” about China has been manufactured through a mix of exaggeration, selective framing, omission, and outright lies. For example, you have likely heard about “996” as if it represents Chinese labour law or the normal working life of the whole country. In reality, 996 was an issue in ~40 of the large tech firms around the 2019 tech boom and was quickly ruled illegal which it now has been for half a decade. For a proper explanation on how this kind of ideological manufacture happens, I would recommend reading Michael Parenti’s Inventing Reality. Further reading recommendations: I have to a plug @Cowbee@lemmy.ml and their beginner reading list But for my recommendations more directly related to the topic at hand I would recommend: Engels: The Principles of Communism Marx and Engels: The Communist Manifesto Engels: Socialism: Utopian and Scientific Marx: Wage Labour and Capital Marx: Value, Price and Profit Marx: Critique of the Gotha Programme Lenin: The State and Revolution Lenin: The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade Kautsky Lenin: Left-Wing Communism: An Infantile Disorder Lenin: Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism Stalin: Foundations of Leninism Stalin: Economic Problems of Socialism in the USSR Mao Zedong: On Practice Mao Zedong: On Contradiction Mao Zedong: On the Correct Handling of Contradictions Among the People Mao Zedong: On New Democracy Mao Zedong: Report on an Investigation of the Peasant Movement in Hunan Mao Zedong: On Protracted War Deng Xiaoping: Build Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Deng Xiaoping: We Must Follow Our Own Road in Economic Development Xi Jinping: Uphold and Develop Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Xi Jinping: The Governance of China Roland Boer: Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Rong Zhaozi: Productivity, Public Capital, and Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Carlos Martinez: The East Is Still Red: Chinese Socialism in the 21st Century Roderic Day: China Has Billionaires Michael Parenti: Blackshirts and Reds Michael Parenti: Inventing Reality Walter Rodney: How Europe Underdeveloped Africa Kwame Nkrumah: Neo-Colonialism: The Last Stage of Imperialism Vijay Prashad: Washington Bullets J. Sakai: Settlers: The Mythology of the White Proletariat I understand having such a long list dumped on you is likely off-putting however that's the unfortunate truth of being a real socialist/communist, constant reading, education and investigation is a must. If you have any specific questions on any of them I can try help you if need be. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 17 points 5 months ago (1 child) Excellent write-up I'd like to point to one thing though China has been socialist since October 1, 1949, because the old landlord-bureaucrat-comprador state was destroyed and replaced by a people’s democratic dictatorship led by the working class through the Communist Party. This doesn't mean anything to a westerner. What westerners hear is "The communist party officials presume/claim to speak in the interest of the working class with no direct input from them". Since this is what almost every party in the west has done since parliaments became a thing. The ones that didn't aren't included in textbooks. And since you're speaking positively of such a party you must be "shilling" for them. I know adding the "how" of how workers shape and influence the state would make your comment even longer, but as it is to most it's just an unbelievable, meaningless phrase. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 months ago Yeah I 100% agree but also felt that it was long enough that it was 50/50 they'd actually read past the first few lines anyway so I could clarify in any follow-ups if they did and if they didn't then it was fine as is anyway. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 13 points 5 months ago Thanks for the shoutout, and excellent comment as always! permalink fedilink source parent [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) How does the firewall work if you don't mind me asking? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (6 children) Just to clarify given the context do you mean the how as in the actual mechanism or the why it was put in place etc? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (5 children) Probably how it works. To my understanding it was put in place to keep out western companies and media preying upon people? But I'm honestly very ignorant on most of this permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (4 children) On how it works: It’s effectively an IP/domain/protocol blacklist. So if you break the rules for example by refusing to host Chinese user data on servers in China as is required by law you get out on the list and your site is blocked. Other things blocked are domains commonly used for spam e.g. .ml is blocked by the firewall as it was a free domain commonly used for spam. So I'm using a VPN as all .ml sites are blocked (as far as I'm aware, there might be some who petitioned their way off but I don't know) On why it was put in place: The firewall was created to foster and protect China’s fledgling digital infrastructure and data sovereignty. Many countries regulate foreign platforms and data flows. China built its own ecosystem instead of depending on foreign companies. We have seen what happens when foreign platforms operate without local oversight: Facebook facilitating genocide in Myanmar, coordinated anti-vax disinformation campaigns in Southeast Asia, algorithm-driven radicalization, etc. The firewall makes those kinds of external influence operations harder or close to impossible to run at scale. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) Thank you for the explanation! Does it also keep information from China getting to other places? Or is that more of the corpos and other countries keeping China's news and what not out of Western spaces? I find it very hard to find things out of rare cases like when I was on Red Note for a bit. I wasn't sure if the firewall had anything to do with that or if its more western influences, or a bit of both? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago (2 children) No the firewall is one-way generally speaking. The fact foreign news agencys need a license to report in China probably doesn't help but it is almost entirely down to the fact that corpos and the countries they own don't actually want to report factual information about China and much prefer NED funded NGOs and but at what cost speculation about whatever China announces. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Ah okay. Thank you so much for the information! I really appreciate it! permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago O7 permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 18 points 5 months ago (18 children) You understand so little you would likely have to unlearn effectively everything you "know" to even approach 0 understanding. I’m also finding it a little bit suspicious that Chinese people–whom are propping up the USSR–are replying to me. Fuck you first of all you massively racist fucking loser. You don't get to be suspicious whitey. For the record, China is still capitalist, Maybe, if you have no fucking idea what capitalism, socialism or communism actually mean. Hell, are Chinese people even legally allowed to use Lemmy? Not understanding the firewall award. Actual Gulag survivors have told stories about how horrific it was to be in those camps, too. Gulag archipelago reader award. (A book so terribly it's been disavowed by everyone involved bar the main author) Chinese cruelty toward the Uyghurs? Depends do you mean the real issues that occured during the crackdown on ETIM or the Zenz/US state department fantasy. Or the children working in factories and producing carcinogenic products for Shein for next to no money? Views stuck decades in the past award. What about the Tianamen square massacre? Categorically not a massacre but a clash between violent rioters and the military acting as riot police at the time, also funnily enough none of the violence was actually in the square. greenwash I don't think you know what this word means The West is pretty evil, but let’s not greenwash the USSR or China. "My country is evil and constantly lies but I also believe everything they say about their ideological enemies" permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 18 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 months ago (2 children) I do agree that we could learn from China, but there's also a damn good reason why their phones are banned in multiple countries. Yes, because the US started a trade war with them because they can't compete (in EVs also), and a few of their vassal states followed suit. Considering that China is known for its heavy censorship and is in good cahoots with Russia Sources on this? The PRC only blocks western surveillance platforms because they're incredibly dangerous to let them loose in your country. They're one of the few countries not naive enough to let facebook and google take over their social media landscape. https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/main/socialism_faq.md#what-about-the-tiananmen-square-massacre permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 13 points 5 months ago I banned after this, reading further down and seeing them get more and more virulently racist. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago Selling products is not capitalism by itself. Capitalism is a system where private ownership is the principal aspect, and capitalists control the state. Socialism, on the other hand, is a system where public ownership is principal, and the working classes control the state. The backbone and commanding heights of China's economy are publicly owned, and the working classes control the state, ergo it is socialist. Billionaires exist because private property exists, and private property exists because it speeds up development and integrates China with the global economy. This is a tradeoff used to build up the productive forces as quickly as possible, so that the social surplus can be redirected to developing underdeveloped regions, and because developed industry is easier to publicly own and plan. As these private firms grow, they are more tightly controlled and/or folded into the public sector. Average working hours in China are 46 hours per week, not 75. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 14 points 5 months ago In china, the state controls capital. In America, capital controls the state permalink fedilink source parent [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 17 points 5 months ago (3 children) I wrote a more direct reply to this, but I have come to realise that in this situation it would most likely be unproductive. You appear to be a very new leftist of some description: you seem to like the idea of socialism or communism, but you do not yet seem to have a firm grasp of what they actually entail. So instead of arguing point by point, I am going to explain what socialism is, why China has been socialist since 1949, and then add some book and article recommendations so you can begin studying the question more seriously on your own. To start, we have to define a term that is commonly used but rarely properly understood: the state. Many people use “the state” and “the government” interchangeably, but this is not accurate. The state is specifically the organised force by which class antagonisms are mediated through the rule of one class over others. The government, on the other hand, broadly refers to the administration, coordination, planning, record-keeping, infrastructure management, public decision-making, and the organisation of social production required by advanced societies. This distinction will be important later. Next, it is important to define socialism. Socialism is the transitionary period between capitalism and communism. It still contains many contradictions inherited from capitalism: classes, class struggle, uneven development, commodity production, wages, bureaucracy, ideological struggle, and often limited market mechanisms. Socialism is not “when everything is already communist.” It is the period in which the proletariat holds political power and uses that power to transform society, develop the productive forces, suppress reaction, and gradually overcome the material basis of class society. This stands in contrast to communism, where class society has been abolished as a meaningful social reality. Communism is classless because there are no longer opposed classes standing in antagonistic relation to one another (as only a single class, the proletariat, remain after the other classes have been proletarianised during the socialist period). It is stateless because, once class antagonisms have disappeared, the state as an instrument of class rule no longer has a function and withers away. This of course does not mean that organisation, administration, planning, or collective decision-making (the government) disappear. It means that the coercive state as an instrument of class domination disappears. At this point you might ask: if contradictions remain under socialism, how is it different from capitalism? That is a reasonable question. The answer rests on one primary and one secondary characteristic. The primary question is: which class commands the state? Under socialism, the proletariat commands the state through the people’s democratic dictatorship, also called the dictatorship of the proletariat. Under capitalism, the bourgeoisie commands the state, which communists refer to as the dictatorship of capital (even if they have a liberal democratic cascade). The secondary question is: which mode of ownership holds primacy, public ownership or private ownership? This is secondary because public ownership under the dictatorship of capital functions as state capitalism, while public ownership under the dictatorship of the proletariat is part of socialist construction. Ownership forms matter, but they cannot be separated from the class character of political power. Now, with this groundwork laid, we can finally look properly at the Chinese situation. China has been socialist since October 1, 1949, because the old landlord-bureaucrat-comprador state was destroyed and replaced by a people’s democratic dictatorship led by the working class through the Communist Party. The Communist Party of China has more than 100 million members as of the end of 2024 (slightly over 1/14 people). The commanding heights of the economy were brought under public ownership and workers state direction. The new state was built to suppress reaction, defend sovereignty, develop the productive forces, and transform society. In China, the bourgeoisie still exists, but it does not rule as a class. Capitalists can own firms in non-commanding sectors, make profits, and accumulate wealth within limits, because developing the productive forces still serves necessary social goals at China’s current stage of development. But they do not command the state, the army, the land system, the central banking system, or the strategic direction of the economy. They do not stand above the people or above the people's organised political instrument, the Communist Party, as a sovereign power. When capital conflicts with the long-term interests of socialist construction, it is disciplined, subordinated, investigated, broken up, fined, or otherwise brought to heel. Jack Ma and Ant Group is a useful example: its $37 billion IPO was suspended in 2020 and Jack Ma was made step away from public life as he attempted to put his profit before the benefits of the people by pushing for loosening banking regulations so he could provide micro loans. Foreign capitalists spent years crying about this as it showed the truth capital holds no power in China. To put it briefly: China is socialist because the proletarian-led state holds political power, commands the strategic economy, subordinates capital to national and social development, suppresses reactionary threats, and continues the long transition out of capitalism under conditions of imperialist encirclement, uneven development, and a still-existing world capitalist system. It would also be remiss not to mention that much of what you “know” about China has been manufactured through a mix of exaggeration, selective framing, omission, and outright lies. For example, you have likely heard about “996” as if it represents Chinese labour law or the normal working life of the whole country. In reality, 996 was an issue in ~40 of the large tech firms around the 2019 tech boom and was quickly ruled illegal which it now has been for half a decade. For a proper explanation on how this kind of ideological manufacture happens, I would recommend reading Michael Parenti’s Inventing Reality. Further reading recommendations: I have to a plug @Cowbee@lemmy.ml and their beginner reading list But for my recommendations more directly related to the topic at hand I would recommend: Engels: The Principles of Communism Marx and Engels: The Communist Manifesto Engels: Socialism: Utopian and Scientific Marx: Wage Labour and Capital Marx: Value, Price and Profit Marx: Critique of the Gotha Programme Lenin: The State and Revolution Lenin: The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade Kautsky Lenin: Left-Wing Communism: An Infantile Disorder Lenin: Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism Stalin: Foundations of Leninism Stalin: Economic Problems of Socialism in the USSR Mao Zedong: On Practice Mao Zedong: On Contradiction Mao Zedong: On the Correct Handling of Contradictions Among the People Mao Zedong: On New Democracy Mao Zedong: Report on an Investigation of the Peasant Movement in Hunan Mao Zedong: On Protracted War Deng Xiaoping: Build Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Deng Xiaoping: We Must Follow Our Own Road in Economic Development Xi Jinping: Uphold and Develop Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Xi Jinping: The Governance of China Roland Boer: Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Rong Zhaozi: Productivity, Public Capital, and Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Carlos Martinez: The East Is Still Red: Chinese Socialism in the 21st Century Roderic Day: China Has Billionaires Michael Parenti: Blackshirts and Reds Michael Parenti: Inventing Reality Walter Rodney: How Europe Underdeveloped Africa Kwame Nkrumah: Neo-Colonialism: The Last Stage of Imperialism Vijay Prashad: Washington Bullets J. Sakai: Settlers: The Mythology of the White Proletariat I understand having such a long list dumped on you is likely off-putting however that's the unfortunate truth of being a real socialist/communist, constant reading, education and investigation is a must. If you have any specific questions on any of them I can try help you if need be. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 17 points 5 months ago (1 child) Excellent write-up I'd like to point to one thing though China has been socialist since October 1, 1949, because the old landlord-bureaucrat-comprador state was destroyed and replaced by a people’s democratic dictatorship led by the working class through the Communist Party. This doesn't mean anything to a westerner. What westerners hear is "The communist party officials presume/claim to speak in the interest of the working class with no direct input from them". Since this is what almost every party in the west has done since parliaments became a thing. The ones that didn't aren't included in textbooks. And since you're speaking positively of such a party you must be "shilling" for them. I know adding the "how" of how workers shape and influence the state would make your comment even longer, but as it is to most it's just an unbelievable, meaningless phrase. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 months ago Yeah I 100% agree but also felt that it was long enough that it was 50/50 they'd actually read past the first few lines anyway so I could clarify in any follow-ups if they did and if they didn't then it was fine as is anyway. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 13 points 5 months ago Thanks for the shoutout, and excellent comment as always! permalink fedilink source parent [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) How does the firewall work if you don't mind me asking? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (6 children) Just to clarify given the context do you mean the how as in the actual mechanism or the why it was put in place etc? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (5 children) Probably how it works. To my understanding it was put in place to keep out western companies and media preying upon people? But I'm honestly very ignorant on most of this permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (4 children) On how it works: It’s effectively an IP/domain/protocol blacklist. So if you break the rules for example by refusing to host Chinese user data on servers in China as is required by law you get out on the list and your site is blocked. Other things blocked are domains commonly used for spam e.g. .ml is blocked by the firewall as it was a free domain commonly used for spam. So I'm using a VPN as all .ml sites are blocked (as far as I'm aware, there might be some who petitioned their way off but I don't know) On why it was put in place: The firewall was created to foster and protect China’s fledgling digital infrastructure and data sovereignty. Many countries regulate foreign platforms and data flows. China built its own ecosystem instead of depending on foreign companies. We have seen what happens when foreign platforms operate without local oversight: Facebook facilitating genocide in Myanmar, coordinated anti-vax disinformation campaigns in Southeast Asia, algorithm-driven radicalization, etc. The firewall makes those kinds of external influence operations harder or close to impossible to run at scale. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) Thank you for the explanation! Does it also keep information from China getting to other places? Or is that more of the corpos and other countries keeping China's news and what not out of Western spaces? I find it very hard to find things out of rare cases like when I was on Red Note for a bit. I wasn't sure if the firewall had anything to do with that or if its more western influences, or a bit of both? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago (2 children) No the firewall is one-way generally speaking. The fact foreign news agencys need a license to report in China probably doesn't help but it is almost entirely down to the fact that corpos and the countries they own don't actually want to report factual information about China and much prefer NED funded NGOs and but at what cost speculation about whatever China announces. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Ah okay. Thank you so much for the information! I really appreciate it! permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago O7 permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 months ago (2 children) I do agree that we could learn from China, but there's also a damn good reason why their phones are banned in multiple countries. Yes, because the US started a trade war with them because they can't compete (in EVs also), and a few of their vassal states followed suit. Considering that China is known for its heavy censorship and is in good cahoots with Russia Sources on this? The PRC only blocks western surveillance platforms because they're incredibly dangerous to let them loose in your country. They're one of the few countries not naive enough to let facebook and google take over their social media landscape. https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/main/socialism_faq.md#what-about-the-tiananmen-square-massacre permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 13 points 5 months ago I banned after this, reading further down and seeing them get more and more virulently racist. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago Selling products is not capitalism by itself. Capitalism is a system where private ownership is the principal aspect, and capitalists control the state. Socialism, on the other hand, is a system where public ownership is principal, and the working classes control the state. The backbone and commanding heights of China's economy are publicly owned, and the working classes control the state, ergo it is socialist. Billionaires exist because private property exists, and private property exists because it speeds up development and integrates China with the global economy. This is a tradeoff used to build up the productive forces as quickly as possible, so that the social surplus can be redirected to developing underdeveloped regions, and because developed industry is easier to publicly own and plan. As these private firms grow, they are more tightly controlled and/or folded into the public sector. Average working hours in China are 46 hours per week, not 75. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 14 points 5 months ago In china, the state controls capital. In America, capital controls the state permalink fedilink source parent [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 17 points 5 months ago (3 children) I wrote a more direct reply to this, but I have come to realise that in this situation it would most likely be unproductive. You appear to be a very new leftist of some description: you seem to like the idea of socialism or communism, but you do not yet seem to have a firm grasp of what they actually entail. So instead of arguing point by point, I am going to explain what socialism is, why China has been socialist since 1949, and then add some book and article recommendations so you can begin studying the question more seriously on your own. To start, we have to define a term that is commonly used but rarely properly understood: the state. Many people use “the state” and “the government” interchangeably, but this is not accurate. The state is specifically the organised force by which class antagonisms are mediated through the rule of one class over others. The government, on the other hand, broadly refers to the administration, coordination, planning, record-keeping, infrastructure management, public decision-making, and the organisation of social production required by advanced societies. This distinction will be important later. Next, it is important to define socialism. Socialism is the transitionary period between capitalism and communism. It still contains many contradictions inherited from capitalism: classes, class struggle, uneven development, commodity production, wages, bureaucracy, ideological struggle, and often limited market mechanisms. Socialism is not “when everything is already communist.” It is the period in which the proletariat holds political power and uses that power to transform society, develop the productive forces, suppress reaction, and gradually overcome the material basis of class society. This stands in contrast to communism, where class society has been abolished as a meaningful social reality. Communism is classless because there are no longer opposed classes standing in antagonistic relation to one another (as only a single class, the proletariat, remain after the other classes have been proletarianised during the socialist period). It is stateless because, once class antagonisms have disappeared, the state as an instrument of class rule no longer has a function and withers away. This of course does not mean that organisation, administration, planning, or collective decision-making (the government) disappear. It means that the coercive state as an instrument of class domination disappears. At this point you might ask: if contradictions remain under socialism, how is it different from capitalism? That is a reasonable question. The answer rests on one primary and one secondary characteristic. The primary question is: which class commands the state? Under socialism, the proletariat commands the state through the people’s democratic dictatorship, also called the dictatorship of the proletariat. Under capitalism, the bourgeoisie commands the state, which communists refer to as the dictatorship of capital (even if they have a liberal democratic cascade). The secondary question is: which mode of ownership holds primacy, public ownership or private ownership? This is secondary because public ownership under the dictatorship of capital functions as state capitalism, while public ownership under the dictatorship of the proletariat is part of socialist construction. Ownership forms matter, but they cannot be separated from the class character of political power. Now, with this groundwork laid, we can finally look properly at the Chinese situation. China has been socialist since October 1, 1949, because the old landlord-bureaucrat-comprador state was destroyed and replaced by a people’s democratic dictatorship led by the working class through the Communist Party. The Communist Party of China has more than 100 million members as of the end of 2024 (slightly over 1/14 people). The commanding heights of the economy were brought under public ownership and workers state direction. The new state was built to suppress reaction, defend sovereignty, develop the productive forces, and transform society. In China, the bourgeoisie still exists, but it does not rule as a class. Capitalists can own firms in non-commanding sectors, make profits, and accumulate wealth within limits, because developing the productive forces still serves necessary social goals at China’s current stage of development. But they do not command the state, the army, the land system, the central banking system, or the strategic direction of the economy. They do not stand above the people or above the people's organised political instrument, the Communist Party, as a sovereign power. When capital conflicts with the long-term interests of socialist construction, it is disciplined, subordinated, investigated, broken up, fined, or otherwise brought to heel. Jack Ma and Ant Group is a useful example: its $37 billion IPO was suspended in 2020 and Jack Ma was made step away from public life as he attempted to put his profit before the benefits of the people by pushing for loosening banking regulations so he could provide micro loans. Foreign capitalists spent years crying about this as it showed the truth capital holds no power in China. To put it briefly: China is socialist because the proletarian-led state holds political power, commands the strategic economy, subordinates capital to national and social development, suppresses reactionary threats, and continues the long transition out of capitalism under conditions of imperialist encirclement, uneven development, and a still-existing world capitalist system. It would also be remiss not to mention that much of what you “know” about China has been manufactured through a mix of exaggeration, selective framing, omission, and outright lies. For example, you have likely heard about “996” as if it represents Chinese labour law or the normal working life of the whole country. In reality, 996 was an issue in ~40 of the large tech firms around the 2019 tech boom and was quickly ruled illegal which it now has been for half a decade. For a proper explanation on how this kind of ideological manufacture happens, I would recommend reading Michael Parenti’s Inventing Reality. Further reading recommendations: I have to a plug @Cowbee@lemmy.ml and their beginner reading list But for my recommendations more directly related to the topic at hand I would recommend: Engels: The Principles of Communism Marx and Engels: The Communist Manifesto Engels: Socialism: Utopian and Scientific Marx: Wage Labour and Capital Marx: Value, Price and Profit Marx: Critique of the Gotha Programme Lenin: The State and Revolution Lenin: The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade Kautsky Lenin: Left-Wing Communism: An Infantile Disorder Lenin: Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism Stalin: Foundations of Leninism Stalin: Economic Problems of Socialism in the USSR Mao Zedong: On Practice Mao Zedong: On Contradiction Mao Zedong: On the Correct Handling of Contradictions Among the People Mao Zedong: On New Democracy Mao Zedong: Report on an Investigation of the Peasant Movement in Hunan Mao Zedong: On Protracted War Deng Xiaoping: Build Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Deng Xiaoping: We Must Follow Our Own Road in Economic Development Xi Jinping: Uphold and Develop Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Xi Jinping: The Governance of China Roland Boer: Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Rong Zhaozi: Productivity, Public Capital, and Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Carlos Martinez: The East Is Still Red: Chinese Socialism in the 21st Century Roderic Day: China Has Billionaires Michael Parenti: Blackshirts and Reds Michael Parenti: Inventing Reality Walter Rodney: How Europe Underdeveloped Africa Kwame Nkrumah: Neo-Colonialism: The Last Stage of Imperialism Vijay Prashad: Washington Bullets J. Sakai: Settlers: The Mythology of the White Proletariat I understand having such a long list dumped on you is likely off-putting however that's the unfortunate truth of being a real socialist/communist, constant reading, education and investigation is a must. If you have any specific questions on any of them I can try help you if need be. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 17 points 5 months ago (1 child) Excellent write-up I'd like to point to one thing though China has been socialist since October 1, 1949, because the old landlord-bureaucrat-comprador state was destroyed and replaced by a people’s democratic dictatorship led by the working class through the Communist Party. This doesn't mean anything to a westerner. What westerners hear is "The communist party officials presume/claim to speak in the interest of the working class with no direct input from them". Since this is what almost every party in the west has done since parliaments became a thing. The ones that didn't aren't included in textbooks. And since you're speaking positively of such a party you must be "shilling" for them. I know adding the "how" of how workers shape and influence the state would make your comment even longer, but as it is to most it's just an unbelievable, meaningless phrase. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 months ago Yeah I 100% agree but also felt that it was long enough that it was 50/50 they'd actually read past the first few lines anyway so I could clarify in any follow-ups if they did and if they didn't then it was fine as is anyway. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 13 points 5 months ago Thanks for the shoutout, and excellent comment as always! permalink fedilink source parent
[–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 months ago (2 children) I do agree that we could learn from China, but there's also a damn good reason why their phones are banned in multiple countries. Yes, because the US started a trade war with them because they can't compete (in EVs also), and a few of their vassal states followed suit. Considering that China is known for its heavy censorship and is in good cahoots with Russia Sources on this? The PRC only blocks western surveillance platforms because they're incredibly dangerous to let them loose in your country. They're one of the few countries not naive enough to let facebook and google take over their social media landscape. https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/main/socialism_faq.md#what-about-the-tiananmen-square-massacre permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 13 points 5 months ago I banned after this, reading further down and seeing them get more and more virulently racist. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 13 points 5 months ago I banned after this, reading further down and seeing them get more and more virulently racist. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 13 points 5 months ago I banned after this, reading further down and seeing them get more and more virulently racist. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago Selling products is not capitalism by itself. Capitalism is a system where private ownership is the principal aspect, and capitalists control the state. Socialism, on the other hand, is a system where public ownership is principal, and the working classes control the state. The backbone and commanding heights of China's economy are publicly owned, and the working classes control the state, ergo it is socialist. Billionaires exist because private property exists, and private property exists because it speeds up development and integrates China with the global economy. This is a tradeoff used to build up the productive forces as quickly as possible, so that the social surplus can be redirected to developing underdeveloped regions, and because developed industry is easier to publicly own and plan. As these private firms grow, they are more tightly controlled and/or folded into the public sector. Average working hours in China are 46 hours per week, not 75. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 14 points 5 months ago In china, the state controls capital. In America, capital controls the state permalink fedilink source parent
[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 17 points 5 months ago (3 children) I wrote a more direct reply to this, but I have come to realise that in this situation it would most likely be unproductive. You appear to be a very new leftist of some description: you seem to like the idea of socialism or communism, but you do not yet seem to have a firm grasp of what they actually entail. So instead of arguing point by point, I am going to explain what socialism is, why China has been socialist since 1949, and then add some book and article recommendations so you can begin studying the question more seriously on your own. To start, we have to define a term that is commonly used but rarely properly understood: the state. Many people use “the state” and “the government” interchangeably, but this is not accurate. The state is specifically the organised force by which class antagonisms are mediated through the rule of one class over others. The government, on the other hand, broadly refers to the administration, coordination, planning, record-keeping, infrastructure management, public decision-making, and the organisation of social production required by advanced societies. This distinction will be important later. Next, it is important to define socialism. Socialism is the transitionary period between capitalism and communism. It still contains many contradictions inherited from capitalism: classes, class struggle, uneven development, commodity production, wages, bureaucracy, ideological struggle, and often limited market mechanisms. Socialism is not “when everything is already communist.” It is the period in which the proletariat holds political power and uses that power to transform society, develop the productive forces, suppress reaction, and gradually overcome the material basis of class society. This stands in contrast to communism, where class society has been abolished as a meaningful social reality. Communism is classless because there are no longer opposed classes standing in antagonistic relation to one another (as only a single class, the proletariat, remain after the other classes have been proletarianised during the socialist period). It is stateless because, once class antagonisms have disappeared, the state as an instrument of class rule no longer has a function and withers away. This of course does not mean that organisation, administration, planning, or collective decision-making (the government) disappear. It means that the coercive state as an instrument of class domination disappears. At this point you might ask: if contradictions remain under socialism, how is it different from capitalism? That is a reasonable question. The answer rests on one primary and one secondary characteristic. The primary question is: which class commands the state? Under socialism, the proletariat commands the state through the people’s democratic dictatorship, also called the dictatorship of the proletariat. Under capitalism, the bourgeoisie commands the state, which communists refer to as the dictatorship of capital (even if they have a liberal democratic cascade). The secondary question is: which mode of ownership holds primacy, public ownership or private ownership? This is secondary because public ownership under the dictatorship of capital functions as state capitalism, while public ownership under the dictatorship of the proletariat is part of socialist construction. Ownership forms matter, but they cannot be separated from the class character of political power. Now, with this groundwork laid, we can finally look properly at the Chinese situation. China has been socialist since October 1, 1949, because the old landlord-bureaucrat-comprador state was destroyed and replaced by a people’s democratic dictatorship led by the working class through the Communist Party. The Communist Party of China has more than 100 million members as of the end of 2024 (slightly over 1/14 people). The commanding heights of the economy were brought under public ownership and workers state direction. The new state was built to suppress reaction, defend sovereignty, develop the productive forces, and transform society. In China, the bourgeoisie still exists, but it does not rule as a class. Capitalists can own firms in non-commanding sectors, make profits, and accumulate wealth within limits, because developing the productive forces still serves necessary social goals at China’s current stage of development. But they do not command the state, the army, the land system, the central banking system, or the strategic direction of the economy. They do not stand above the people or above the people's organised political instrument, the Communist Party, as a sovereign power. When capital conflicts with the long-term interests of socialist construction, it is disciplined, subordinated, investigated, broken up, fined, or otherwise brought to heel. Jack Ma and Ant Group is a useful example: its $37 billion IPO was suspended in 2020 and Jack Ma was made step away from public life as he attempted to put his profit before the benefits of the people by pushing for loosening banking regulations so he could provide micro loans. Foreign capitalists spent years crying about this as it showed the truth capital holds no power in China. To put it briefly: China is socialist because the proletarian-led state holds political power, commands the strategic economy, subordinates capital to national and social development, suppresses reactionary threats, and continues the long transition out of capitalism under conditions of imperialist encirclement, uneven development, and a still-existing world capitalist system. It would also be remiss not to mention that much of what you “know” about China has been manufactured through a mix of exaggeration, selective framing, omission, and outright lies. For example, you have likely heard about “996” as if it represents Chinese labour law or the normal working life of the whole country. In reality, 996 was an issue in ~40 of the large tech firms around the 2019 tech boom and was quickly ruled illegal which it now has been for half a decade. For a proper explanation on how this kind of ideological manufacture happens, I would recommend reading Michael Parenti’s Inventing Reality. Further reading recommendations: I have to a plug @Cowbee@lemmy.ml and their beginner reading list But for my recommendations more directly related to the topic at hand I would recommend: Engels: The Principles of Communism Marx and Engels: The Communist Manifesto Engels: Socialism: Utopian and Scientific Marx: Wage Labour and Capital Marx: Value, Price and Profit Marx: Critique of the Gotha Programme Lenin: The State and Revolution Lenin: The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade Kautsky Lenin: Left-Wing Communism: An Infantile Disorder Lenin: Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism Stalin: Foundations of Leninism Stalin: Economic Problems of Socialism in the USSR Mao Zedong: On Practice Mao Zedong: On Contradiction Mao Zedong: On the Correct Handling of Contradictions Among the People Mao Zedong: On New Democracy Mao Zedong: Report on an Investigation of the Peasant Movement in Hunan Mao Zedong: On Protracted War Deng Xiaoping: Build Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Deng Xiaoping: We Must Follow Our Own Road in Economic Development Xi Jinping: Uphold and Develop Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Xi Jinping: The Governance of China Roland Boer: Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Rong Zhaozi: Productivity, Public Capital, and Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Carlos Martinez: The East Is Still Red: Chinese Socialism in the 21st Century Roderic Day: China Has Billionaires Michael Parenti: Blackshirts and Reds Michael Parenti: Inventing Reality Walter Rodney: How Europe Underdeveloped Africa Kwame Nkrumah: Neo-Colonialism: The Last Stage of Imperialism Vijay Prashad: Washington Bullets J. Sakai: Settlers: The Mythology of the White Proletariat I understand having such a long list dumped on you is likely off-putting however that's the unfortunate truth of being a real socialist/communist, constant reading, education and investigation is a must. If you have any specific questions on any of them I can try help you if need be. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 17 points 5 months ago (1 child) Excellent write-up I'd like to point to one thing though China has been socialist since October 1, 1949, because the old landlord-bureaucrat-comprador state was destroyed and replaced by a people’s democratic dictatorship led by the working class through the Communist Party. This doesn't mean anything to a westerner. What westerners hear is "The communist party officials presume/claim to speak in the interest of the working class with no direct input from them". Since this is what almost every party in the west has done since parliaments became a thing. The ones that didn't aren't included in textbooks. And since you're speaking positively of such a party you must be "shilling" for them. I know adding the "how" of how workers shape and influence the state would make your comment even longer, but as it is to most it's just an unbelievable, meaningless phrase. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 months ago Yeah I 100% agree but also felt that it was long enough that it was 50/50 they'd actually read past the first few lines anyway so I could clarify in any follow-ups if they did and if they didn't then it was fine as is anyway. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 13 points 5 months ago Thanks for the shoutout, and excellent comment as always! permalink fedilink source parent
[–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 17 points 5 months ago (1 child) Excellent write-up I'd like to point to one thing though China has been socialist since October 1, 1949, because the old landlord-bureaucrat-comprador state was destroyed and replaced by a people’s democratic dictatorship led by the working class through the Communist Party. This doesn't mean anything to a westerner. What westerners hear is "The communist party officials presume/claim to speak in the interest of the working class with no direct input from them". Since this is what almost every party in the west has done since parliaments became a thing. The ones that didn't aren't included in textbooks. And since you're speaking positively of such a party you must be "shilling" for them. I know adding the "how" of how workers shape and influence the state would make your comment even longer, but as it is to most it's just an unbelievable, meaningless phrase. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 months ago Yeah I 100% agree but also felt that it was long enough that it was 50/50 they'd actually read past the first few lines anyway so I could clarify in any follow-ups if they did and if they didn't then it was fine as is anyway. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 months ago Yeah I 100% agree but also felt that it was long enough that it was 50/50 they'd actually read past the first few lines anyway so I could clarify in any follow-ups if they did and if they didn't then it was fine as is anyway. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 13 points 5 months ago Thanks for the shoutout, and excellent comment as always! permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) How does the firewall work if you don't mind me asking? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (6 children) Just to clarify given the context do you mean the how as in the actual mechanism or the why it was put in place etc? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (5 children) Probably how it works. To my understanding it was put in place to keep out western companies and media preying upon people? But I'm honestly very ignorant on most of this permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (4 children) On how it works: It’s effectively an IP/domain/protocol blacklist. So if you break the rules for example by refusing to host Chinese user data on servers in China as is required by law you get out on the list and your site is blocked. Other things blocked are domains commonly used for spam e.g. .ml is blocked by the firewall as it was a free domain commonly used for spam. So I'm using a VPN as all .ml sites are blocked (as far as I'm aware, there might be some who petitioned their way off but I don't know) On why it was put in place: The firewall was created to foster and protect China’s fledgling digital infrastructure and data sovereignty. Many countries regulate foreign platforms and data flows. China built its own ecosystem instead of depending on foreign companies. We have seen what happens when foreign platforms operate without local oversight: Facebook facilitating genocide in Myanmar, coordinated anti-vax disinformation campaigns in Southeast Asia, algorithm-driven radicalization, etc. The firewall makes those kinds of external influence operations harder or close to impossible to run at scale. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) Thank you for the explanation! Does it also keep information from China getting to other places? Or is that more of the corpos and other countries keeping China's news and what not out of Western spaces? I find it very hard to find things out of rare cases like when I was on Red Note for a bit. I wasn't sure if the firewall had anything to do with that or if its more western influences, or a bit of both? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago (2 children) No the firewall is one-way generally speaking. The fact foreign news agencys need a license to report in China probably doesn't help but it is almost entirely down to the fact that corpos and the countries they own don't actually want to report factual information about China and much prefer NED funded NGOs and but at what cost speculation about whatever China announces. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Ah okay. Thank you so much for the information! I really appreciate it! permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago O7 permalink fedilink source parent
[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (6 children) Just to clarify given the context do you mean the how as in the actual mechanism or the why it was put in place etc? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (5 children) Probably how it works. To my understanding it was put in place to keep out western companies and media preying upon people? But I'm honestly very ignorant on most of this permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (4 children) On how it works: It’s effectively an IP/domain/protocol blacklist. So if you break the rules for example by refusing to host Chinese user data on servers in China as is required by law you get out on the list and your site is blocked. Other things blocked are domains commonly used for spam e.g. .ml is blocked by the firewall as it was a free domain commonly used for spam. So I'm using a VPN as all .ml sites are blocked (as far as I'm aware, there might be some who petitioned their way off but I don't know) On why it was put in place: The firewall was created to foster and protect China’s fledgling digital infrastructure and data sovereignty. Many countries regulate foreign platforms and data flows. China built its own ecosystem instead of depending on foreign companies. We have seen what happens when foreign platforms operate without local oversight: Facebook facilitating genocide in Myanmar, coordinated anti-vax disinformation campaigns in Southeast Asia, algorithm-driven radicalization, etc. The firewall makes those kinds of external influence operations harder or close to impossible to run at scale. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) Thank you for the explanation! Does it also keep information from China getting to other places? Or is that more of the corpos and other countries keeping China's news and what not out of Western spaces? I find it very hard to find things out of rare cases like when I was on Red Note for a bit. I wasn't sure if the firewall had anything to do with that or if its more western influences, or a bit of both? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago (2 children) No the firewall is one-way generally speaking. The fact foreign news agencys need a license to report in China probably doesn't help but it is almost entirely down to the fact that corpos and the countries they own don't actually want to report factual information about China and much prefer NED funded NGOs and but at what cost speculation about whatever China announces. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Ah okay. Thank you so much for the information! I really appreciate it! permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago O7 permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (5 children) Probably how it works. To my understanding it was put in place to keep out western companies and media preying upon people? But I'm honestly very ignorant on most of this permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (4 children) On how it works: It’s effectively an IP/domain/protocol blacklist. So if you break the rules for example by refusing to host Chinese user data on servers in China as is required by law you get out on the list and your site is blocked. Other things blocked are domains commonly used for spam e.g. .ml is blocked by the firewall as it was a free domain commonly used for spam. So I'm using a VPN as all .ml sites are blocked (as far as I'm aware, there might be some who petitioned their way off but I don't know) On why it was put in place: The firewall was created to foster and protect China’s fledgling digital infrastructure and data sovereignty. Many countries regulate foreign platforms and data flows. China built its own ecosystem instead of depending on foreign companies. We have seen what happens when foreign platforms operate without local oversight: Facebook facilitating genocide in Myanmar, coordinated anti-vax disinformation campaigns in Southeast Asia, algorithm-driven radicalization, etc. The firewall makes those kinds of external influence operations harder or close to impossible to run at scale. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) Thank you for the explanation! Does it also keep information from China getting to other places? Or is that more of the corpos and other countries keeping China's news and what not out of Western spaces? I find it very hard to find things out of rare cases like when I was on Red Note for a bit. I wasn't sure if the firewall had anything to do with that or if its more western influences, or a bit of both? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago (2 children) No the firewall is one-way generally speaking. The fact foreign news agencys need a license to report in China probably doesn't help but it is almost entirely down to the fact that corpos and the countries they own don't actually want to report factual information about China and much prefer NED funded NGOs and but at what cost speculation about whatever China announces. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Ah okay. Thank you so much for the information! I really appreciate it! permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago O7 permalink fedilink source parent
[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (4 children) On how it works: It’s effectively an IP/domain/protocol blacklist. So if you break the rules for example by refusing to host Chinese user data on servers in China as is required by law you get out on the list and your site is blocked. Other things blocked are domains commonly used for spam e.g. .ml is blocked by the firewall as it was a free domain commonly used for spam. So I'm using a VPN as all .ml sites are blocked (as far as I'm aware, there might be some who petitioned their way off but I don't know) On why it was put in place: The firewall was created to foster and protect China’s fledgling digital infrastructure and data sovereignty. Many countries regulate foreign platforms and data flows. China built its own ecosystem instead of depending on foreign companies. We have seen what happens when foreign platforms operate without local oversight: Facebook facilitating genocide in Myanmar, coordinated anti-vax disinformation campaigns in Southeast Asia, algorithm-driven radicalization, etc. The firewall makes those kinds of external influence operations harder or close to impossible to run at scale. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) Thank you for the explanation! Does it also keep information from China getting to other places? Or is that more of the corpos and other countries keeping China's news and what not out of Western spaces? I find it very hard to find things out of rare cases like when I was on Red Note for a bit. I wasn't sure if the firewall had anything to do with that or if its more western influences, or a bit of both? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago (2 children) No the firewall is one-way generally speaking. The fact foreign news agencys need a license to report in China probably doesn't help but it is almost entirely down to the fact that corpos and the countries they own don't actually want to report factual information about China and much prefer NED funded NGOs and but at what cost speculation about whatever China announces. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Ah okay. Thank you so much for the information! I really appreciate it! permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago O7 permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) Thank you for the explanation! Does it also keep information from China getting to other places? Or is that more of the corpos and other countries keeping China's news and what not out of Western spaces? I find it very hard to find things out of rare cases like when I was on Red Note for a bit. I wasn't sure if the firewall had anything to do with that or if its more western influences, or a bit of both? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago (2 children) No the firewall is one-way generally speaking. The fact foreign news agencys need a license to report in China probably doesn't help but it is almost entirely down to the fact that corpos and the countries they own don't actually want to report factual information about China and much prefer NED funded NGOs and but at what cost speculation about whatever China announces. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Ah okay. Thank you so much for the information! I really appreciate it! permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago O7 permalink fedilink source parent
[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago (2 children) No the firewall is one-way generally speaking. The fact foreign news agencys need a license to report in China probably doesn't help but it is almost entirely down to the fact that corpos and the countries they own don't actually want to report factual information about China and much prefer NED funded NGOs and but at what cost speculation about whatever China announces. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Ah okay. Thank you so much for the information! I really appreciate it! permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago O7 permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago (1 child) Ah okay. Thank you so much for the information! I really appreciate it! permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago O7 permalink fedilink source parent