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A little more control ceded to the fascists, and we'll have a REAL Revolutionary Crisis(tm) which we can use to Right This Country! (lemmy.world)
submitted 1 year ago by to c/politicalmemes@lemmy.world
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[–] 1 point 1 year ago* (15 children)

This is a hilarious and I relate, but it doesn't actually help us. Or anyone. One sandwich to a homeless man? Is more actual benefit to the world than saying this.

Unless you go and start a conversation with a Red-hatter this way. Get them riled up and cheering for how you HATE the same people they do, and use it to glean some motivation deeper than "owning the libs."

Then you can maybe, just maybe talk to a voter about how society has left them behind too. From experience, they have the same concerns, fears, pressures as what drives people to the Left, its just been twisted by gaslighting propaganda about who we are. Before I could bring this red-hatter to a pride parade, they need a LOT of therapy. But for many there is realistic hope.

You still haven't commented on Mamdani, and that disappoints me.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (14 children)

    This is a hilarious and I relate, but it doesn’t actually help us. Or anyone.

    I... wasn't trying to help anyone by saying it? Other than venting for my own benefit?

    Unless you go and start a conversation with a Red-hatter this way. Get them riled up and cheering for how you HATE the same people they do, and use it to glean some motivation deeper than “owning the libs.”

    Bruh. I lived in a deeply conservative area for most of my life. My social circles were deeply conservative, and I feigned being 'apolitical' to avoid having to go nuclear at a time when my living position was precarious.

    Thinking that there's a commonality of dislike there is falling for the extremely thin mask they put on whenever some liberal gives them pushback. It's not real. They immediately drop the mask when around people they think are similar to them.

    The people they hate aren't 'the elite' as you or I would recognize them. The people they hate aren't 'politicians' as you or I would recognize them. They have deeper motivations than 'owning the libs', but not more wholesome ones, I assure you. Being a metaphorical bump-on-a-log who isn't suspected of liberalism lets you hear some gruesome truths about the principles of conservatives.

    You still haven’t commented on Mamdani, and that disappoints me.

    ... fucking what? I've commented numerous times on Mamdani??

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (9 children)

    fucking what? I've commented numerous times on Mamdani??

    My bad, I'll dig thru your profile for that.

    Bruh. I lived in a deeply conservative area for most of my life. My social circles were deeply conservative, and I feigned being 'apolitical' to avoid having to go nuclear at a time when my living position was precarious.

    I feel that, and I can relate. I'm less precarious today.

    Thinking that there's a commonality of dislike there is falling for the extremely thin mask they put on whenever some liberal gives them pushback. It's not real. They immediately drop the mask when around people they think are similar to them.

    Oh, that? That's not what I'm talking about for a motive. But in retrospect, I can see how I read that way.

    We have to distinguish between a spectrum of rightwingers - the ones who know the dogwhistles are such, and those who are so uneducated they bought the frame of "small government" as good in its own right because "everyone agrees". Like it's a religion they were raised in.

    "Hating the elites" (whatever that means) isn't a coherent political idea as a result. Having 3 jobs and being pissed that you're still broke? That's a coherent political thought they don't even have the vocabulary to express.

    Is the "elite-hate" just antisemitism pretending to look vaguely leftish? Potentially. Or has this dudebro been so starved of literacy that he takes the dogwhistle unironically, but won't connect "billionaire" with that on his own? This is a spectrum.

    I'd rather find and talk to the drive of "why am I still poor when I work this hard?"

    If an upscale clothing store manager steps to me talking about "these kids don't know how to work," I'm acknowledging how exhausted he looks. His is not a life of dignity, and I will say this to him. The education system has failed him through his trainees, and he is being asked to pick up the slack. Where are bank tellers going to come from when kids graduate unable to count money? What kind of AI are data scientists going to build when they don't understand what each statistics distribution describes?

    We are failing to invest in our country, and he will either see how this affects him personally, or he will walk away seething. If he brings up DEI or trans anything, or immigrant crime? I have a one-liner to address it and move back to the real conversation - you work too hard bro, and its because our systems are failing.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (8 children)

    “Hating the elites” (whatever that means) isn’t a coherent political idea as a result. Having 3 jobs and being pissed that you’re still broke? That’s a coherent political thought they don’t even have the vocabulary to express.

    Alright, but many of them take a perverse pride in poverty, don't work three jobs, and quite explicitly love the elite. Like, the level of idolization of rich folk who share their dogwhistles that goes on is insane.

    If you've never seen a Trump flag with Rambo's body on it, count yourself lucky. And it's not a new trend either. Wealth means people are 'smart' and 'hardworking', unless they start talking all liberal-like. The 'elites' they hate are not the people who drain their meagre wealth away from them, they're the people that make them feel insecure - doctors, lawyers, career politicians who don't suck them off.

    Is the “elite-hate” just antisemitism pretending to look vaguely leftish? Potentially.

    Not even, though. Elite hate isn't a smokescreen for something more nefarious - step back, take in the full view of their position, and it is literally just that - hate for elites. The issue is that the 'elites' they despise are people who make them feel 'lesser' intellectually.

    And the worst part is, many of these people are not stupid, inherently. But they've been raised to see incuriosity about their preconceptions as a virtue. They will simultaneously express what a BADASS REBEL they are by meekly submitting to conservative social norms and what a GOOD UPSTANDING LAW-ABIDING CITIZEN they are for meekly submitting to conservative norms. And if you point it out, they see no contradiction. Which, in practice if not principle, to be fair, I suppose there isn't.

    I flatter myself a bit in saying that I have a bit of an edge in arguments with most people. I used to like to argue, and got very good at it - now I argue out of exhausted obligation and the knowledge that letting points go uncontested in a social circle lets them multiply, which results in very unpleasant social circles. Let me tell you, the insanity of giving gentle pushback and maneuvering a conservative into a position where they state something in reverse of their position (such as from 'politicians need more power' to 'politicians need less power') while still maintaining their original position is...

    1984 had it fucking right, man. The level of people to engage in doublethink is overwhelming.

    If an upscale clothing store manager steps to me talking about “these kids don’t know how to work,” I’m acknowledging how exhausted he looks.

    I suppose I can't speak to that. My experience is overwhelmingly with poor, rural, religious conservative America.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (7 children)

    I suppose I can't speak to that. My experience is overwhelmingly with poor, rural, religious conservative America.

    My experience is varied. Some of the rural folk, but also the men who think they're above that, and think Trump will cut their taxes. Evangelicals too.

    I've even gone off on some religious nut to "repent his following an Antichrist," which spooked him enough to make him leave.

    1984 had it fucking right, man. The level of people to engage in doublethink is overwhelming.

    Calling them on that outright rarely does anything, unless we can get someone else to follow up with the same until we wear them down. And they blow up every single time.

    Alright, but many of them take a perverse pride in poverty, don't work three jobs, and quite explicitly love the elite. Like, the level of idolization of rich folk who share their dogwhistles that goes on is insane.

    See, my first instinct is to call those elites they love? Manipulate Liberals. But that takes work and deep cultural access and context to discern, and I rarely have that.

    Elite hate isn't a smokescreen for something more nefarious - step back, take in the full view of their position, and it is literally just that - hate for elites. The issue is that the 'elites' they despise are people who make them feel 'lesser' intellectually.

    This is why I usually start with a frame of hating Liberals. Out loud. 5-10 minutes of "sounding like Tucker" to get them nodding along. Invite them to learn. Whether they do or don't, make them feel smart for even nodding along... And then switch the frame when we hit a natural pivot point. It doesn't work every time, but they at least walk away respecting me for not being an elitist Liberal.

    And the worst part is, many of these people are not stupid, inherently. But they've been raised to see incuriosity about their preconceptions as a virtue. They will simultaneously express what a BADASS REBEL they are by meekly submitting to conservative social norms and what a GOOD UPSTANDING LAW-ABIDING CITIZEN they are for meekly submitting to conservative norms. And if you point it out, they see no contradiction. Which, in practice if not principle, to be fair, I suppose there isn't.

    Crystalized as "conservative is the new punk rock" in more recent years. I see that.

    This is where I talk about being good neighbors. When my neighbor hurts, it hurts me. And if I can look you in the eye? You're my neighbor. I owe you some basic respect simply for you being here. How can I help, neighbor?

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago* (6 children)

    My experience is varied. Some of the rural folk, but also the men who think they’re above that, and think Trump will cut their taxes. Evangelicals too.

    I’ve even gone off on some religious nut to “repent his following an Antichrist,” which spooked him enough to make him leave.

    My experience is almost solely with the rural and religious. By the time I lived in a place where the suburban middle-class civility politics variant of right-wing ghoul was a significant population, I had gained a much greater ability to be discerning in who I chose to be in my social circle.

    Calling them on that outright rarely does anything, unless we can get someone else to follow up with the same until we wear them down. And they blow up every single time.

    I'm honestly of the opinion that 95% of them are unsalvageable by any means.

    The point of hammering them on these points is to make them ashamed and quiet again to reduce the spread and acceptance of their vile shite.

    You can't cure the disease, but quarantine can reduce its spread.

    See, my first instinct is to call those elites they love? Manipulate Liberals. But that takes work and deep cultural access and context to discern, and I rarely have that.

    Unfortunately, calling the elites that they love 'liberals' or 'socialists' just gets them angry at you for daring to defame their good holsum corporate masters. Even before Elongated Muskrat was a conservative darling, trying to point out that he was sucking government subsidies at great cost to the taxpayer got many conservatives I spoke with genuinely angry. "Yes, he's a businessman, that makes him smart!"

    This is why I usually start with a frame of hating Liberals. Out loud. 5-10 minutes of “sounding like Tucker” to get them nodding along. Invite them to learn. Whether they do or don’t, make them feel smart for even nodding along… And then switch the frame when we hit a natural pivot point. It doesn’t work every time, but they at least walk away respecting me for not being an elitist Liberal.

    See, when that pivot point hits, the conservatives I've known all either laugh it off or get angry. It's not "Oh wow, I actually agree with these points!", but "Ha ha, that's a neat trick, like asking someone for Pen 15" or "This damn dirty crypto-liberal is trying to trick me with his mind games!"

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (5 children)

    See, when that pivot point hits, the conservatives I've known all either laugh it off or get angry. It's not "Oh wow, I actually agree with these points!", but "Ha ha, that's a neat trick, like asking someone for Pen 15" or "This damn dirty crypto-liberal is trying to trick me with his mind games!"

    Practice helps. So does being a stranger that's visibly working class. I suspect you've run into a wall for being known and as a "hostile" for being a "liberal". My best success comes from when I can get around that, one on one. Got a former coworker who still goes to that evangelical church, but watches Democracy Now every day.

    But also... Yeah, that happens. Sometimes it makes people question their ideas, sometimes we're sewing seeds for someone else to water. And that's okay.

    In a very real way, we are talking about Christian-style evangelism.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    Practice helps. So does being a stranger that’s visibly working class. I suspect you’ve run into a wall for being known and as a “hostile” for being a “liberal”.

    At the time, I was very much a good young man who never claimed to be anything more than a moderate around these people. Those who knew me largely took it as what we might call 'debatelording' rather than seriously.

    Me, having just led them by the nose to water and watching them not drink: "I'm just saying, you have to consider all sides of the issue."

    "Whatabout whatabout whatabout? Ha ha ha, let's not talk politics anyway"

    In any case, I stopped wasting my time years ago, and wear my socialism on my sleeve nowadays.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (3 children)

    Those people ate out of Bernie's hand on his fox news town hall.

    At that pivot, sometimes before? I like to come out of the closet as a raging Leftist, and promising that I hate Liberals more than my audience does. "I want you to have a fair shot, even if you've been told I'm the devil." I need a context where that won't get me shot to pull that out.

    "Capitalism just means that everything is owned by those elites that don't f#$king live here." Is one of my favorite lines. It goes well with calling the person in front of me "my neighbor because I can look you in the eye."

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago* (2 children)

    Those people ate out of Bernie’s hand on his fox news town hall.

    That's not the same as being convinced. In 2015 and 2016 I was all over Bernie's potential for convincing conservatives, because they seemed receptive - as it wore on, it became increasingly clear that it was the same passing agreement I was familiar with that would be entirely forgotten and reversed by the next hour. It's the same phenomenon as Trump repeating whatever the last person who spoke to him said.

    “Capitalism just means that everything is owned by those elites that don’t f#$king live here.” Is one of my favorite lines. It goes well with calling the person in front of me “my neighbor because I can look you in the eye.”

    That pisses people off in my experience, especially with many in the lower-middle class owning land that they don't live on in Appalachia. Besides, the elite WORKED for that land. It's basically the same as telling these poor folks that they don't deserve what THEY work for too! /s

    It only pisses them off if they think the elites who own it are filthy liberals - as long as the elites virtual signal about rugged capitalism and Christianity, they get their boots licked even as they raise prices and squeeze an already impoverished community.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Well, different rhetoric for different locales.

    This has been fun!

    Next time let's explore how you might bring up some Appalachian history that isnt being taught.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago

    Next time let’s explore how you might bring up some Appalachian history that isnt being taught.

    Unfortunately, they side with the strikebreakers anymore. Might be different in coal towns.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    Still digging, not seeing your comments on Mamdani.

    But the way you run defense for Biden and Cuomo without actually committing to them? Doesn't leave me hopeful that I can call you a "comrade" in any sense.

    Critiquing the Soviet Union? With Nuance? Actually Based. I wanna see what happens when you read William Hinton's (admitted racist) firsthand account of the Chinese Cultural Revolution in his book "FanShen" and his secondhand account of the reversal in "ShenFan".

    I use the first as evidence that we can do better when we talk to each other - that "ground game" you maligned in this thread. I use the second to describe the Strong-State's problem of accountability for leadership's incompetence, and the incentive for workers to outright Lie as a survival measure.

    There is hope for you yet. But I would love to hear you explain what soaking in a rightwing geography has pushed you to.

    And yes, I still want to hear your thoughts on Zohran Mamdani. They're buried. Either I need a new interface that makes this search easier, or a restatement.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    Still digging, not seeing your comments on Mamdani.

    Simply searching 'Mamdani' by user 'PugJesus' comes up with:

    In any case, a major congratulations and good luck to Zohran Mamdani, the democratic socialist who won the Dem Party primaries for NYC mayor!

    I wouldn’t count on it. Party elites are notoriously resistant to any kind of positive change. The only way we can change the Dem Party is by forcing it to change - by ensuring progressive candidates like Mr. Mamdani continue to win going forward.

    Hopefully, the strained democracy of the US will hold up long enough for that to matter.

    Damn, my hopes for Mamdani just got even higher. Low turnout under ordinary circumstances give high-enthusiasm candidates an advantage, by that enthusiastic base’s relative size to the ordinarily voting electorate.

    Fucking fascist ghouls. Good on Mamdani for not putting up with it, though it’s horrifying that this is already a fucking concern.

    (someone else) If we fill them with Zohran Mamdanis, on the other hand…

    Me:

    But the way you run defense for Biden and Cuomo without actually committing to them? Doesn’t leave me hopeful that I can call you a “comrade” in any sense.

    I 'ran defense' for Biden when he was the only fucking candidate with a realistic shot at beating the fascist. Sorry for not wanting more Palestinians to die, for not wanting Ukrainians to be murdered by genocidal Russian imperialists, for not wanting literal millions abroad to starve and waste from sickness for lack of US aid, for not wanting US LGBT folk and marginalized groups to be murdered en masse, and, selfishly, for not wanting to have my health insurance as a Filthy Poor(tm) with a chronic disease stripped so I die vomiting blood on my bathroom floor?

    I've literally never ran defense for Cuomo, in any way shape or form.

    There is hope for you yet. But I would love to hear you explain what soaking in a rightwing geography has pushed you to.

    Cynicism. The idea that these people are ready to be our comrades with just the right phrasing is, unfortunately, insanity. The core issue is not misinformation, or the wrong policies - otherwise you would be right, there is hope. The core issue has been the development and cultivation of sickened values over the past 70 years that are directly contrary to functional politics.

    Values are much harder to change than political allegiances, and political allegiances are already notoriously hard to change. Whatever the solution is to our problem, it doesn't include turning rural fascists into comrades any more than the Dem attempts to turn rural fascists into conservatives has worked.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Simply searching 'Mamdani' by user 'PugJesus' comes up with:

    Thanks for the tutorial.

    And yeah, I'm falling into an old pattern of arguing with people I agree with. Im actually arguing against a real Liberal I see elsewhere, but don't have the standing to argue against without social consequence.

    Damn. My bad comrade.

    Cynicism. The idea that these people are ready to be our comrades with just the right phrasing is, unfortunately, insanity. The core issue is not misinformation, or the wrong policies - otherwise you would be right, there is hope. The core issue has been the development and cultivation of sickened values over the past 70 years that are directly contrary to functional politics.

    100% real. But a LOT of them have this double think about the older values too. The values they act on come from a cultivated fear that's been maintained so long its seeped into the whole ass person. This is the core of what Fascist Movements look like, unironically.

    They need cult-deprogramming. Which means extracting them from their entire current cultural context, and replacing it. This is easiest with an online-only dudebro that'll probably end up a mass shooter if we don't. But a whole community? A whole Trump-worshipping church?

    The "Republican Jesus" memes never escape Liberal circles. They need someone they can recognize as their own to call them out. I won't be happy until there's protests outside of Megachurches calling the Pastor a "Grifting Antichrist", telling the Parrish to Repent this Sin.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago*

    Damn. My bad comrade.

    No worries. It's the internet, no one knows I'm really a dog socialist. And I often argue on practical grounds, with what can be achieved in this immensely right-wing country, so I understand that I can come off as more 'liberal' than I am. But ultimately, my position is that action is only sustainable with popular support, so we need to do what we can now to minimize the damage of the immediate actions of government, and work to establish the conditions for popular support of actual leftist policy.

    Doing just the former is putting off death another four years and accepting injustice - better than the alternative of embracing death and intensifying injustice, but obviously not good. Doing just the latter is self-defeating; like handing your enemies a hatchet to bury in your back. The least one could (and should) do is dull the blade's edge and put it on a high shelf before turning away to write your manifesto.

    The “Republican Jesus” memes never escape Liberal circles. They need someone they can recognize as their own to call them out. I won’t be happy until there’s protests outside of Megachurches calling the Pastor a “Grifting Antichrist”, telling the Parrish to Repent this Sin.

    As much as I'd love a modern Hussite movement, warts and all, I think the evangelicals have hit on a psychological profile that's too refined and modern to be simply dislodged.

    Unfortunately, I think only time and decreasing religiosity in each passing generation will defeat them.

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