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[–] 93 points 10 months ago* (55 children)

ITT: We victim blame.

The principal, Danielle Coriell, said an investigation came up cold that day as no student took responsibility. The deputy assigned to the school searched social media for the images unsuccessfully, according to a recording of the disciplinary hearing.

“I was led to believe that this was just hearsay and rumors,” the girl’s father said, recounting a conversation he had that morning with the school counselor.

But the girl was miserable, and a police incident report showed more girls were reporting that they were victims, too. The 13-year-old returned to the counselor in the afternoon, asking to call her father. She said she was refused.

When the girl stepped onto the bus 15 minutes later, the boy was showing the AI-generated images to a friend. Fake nude images of her friends were visible on the boy’s phone, the girl said, a claim backed up by a photo taken on the bus. A video from the school bus showed at least a half-dozen students circulating the images, said Martin, the superintendent, at a school board meeting.

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  • [–] 59 points 10 months ago (24 children)

    Hey man if you distribute porn of someone non consenting, you deserve at least a solid punch in the face.

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  • [–] 38 points 10 months ago (8 children)

    Hard disagree. What other option did she have at this point, she tried following proper channels to get the bullying resolved and when that didn't work, did the only other thing she could.

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  • [–] 15 points 10 months ago

    I would 100% go far further if this arrive to my daughter. I would go yo police reporting school sponsored diffusion of pedo pornography. And ruin the school reputation and have all parents involved. This would make me go thermonuclear.

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  • [–] 14 points 10 months ago

    Counter devils advocate: our legal system does allow civilians to stop a crime in progress against themselves, physically, even if the crime itself is nonviolent in nature.

    For instance, If i witness someone stealing my property, I am allowed to use reasonable, non-deadly force in defense of my property. She faced serious, permanent, and ongoing mental harm, which she had every right to attempt to stop as it occurred

    And the police have fundamentaly agreed she was justified in her actions, and upheld this right, as shes not being charged.

    (Although personally I think they should threaten school officials with charges of conspiracy after the fact and abetting the dissemination of csam for the expulsion, to force them to recant it.)

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  • [–] 14 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    She could have gone to her parents, a counselor or a trusted adult to help her manage her emotions over the situation until a better resolution could be reached.

    She did. She fucking did all the things that you say she should have done. She availed herself of all the support structures you say she should have utilized, and they all failed her.

    Those parents, counselors, and trusted adults could have helped her "manage her emotions" by separating her from the harasser. Instead, they put the two of them together on a bus, effectively unsupervised. She did everything right. All of the social structures that should have supported her failed, and now you're all that the most reasonable course of action she had was direct violence.

    The school's actions were foolish, lazy, unhelpful, and unacceptable. In the specific circumstances she faced, her actions were perfectly reasonable.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    They weren't working the issue, they were ignoring her. The administrators clearly thought she was making shit up.

    Now he's facing charges because she forced the police to look into it.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago

    Giving a bit more context it wasn't just this one girl. This was a child porn trading ring with multiple victims, and they all had gone to the school administration and some even went to the police.

    The principal, Danielle Coriell, said an investigation came up cold that day as no student took responsibility. The deputy assigned to the school searched social media for the images unsuccessfully, according to a recording of the disciplinary hearing.

    “I was led to believe that this was just hearsay and rumors,” the girl’s father said, recounting a conversation he had that morning with the school counselor.

    But the girl was miserable, and a police incident report showed more girls were reporting that they were victims, too. The 13-year-old returned to the counselor in the afternoon, asking to call her father. She said she was refused.

    Her father says she sent a text message that said, “Dad,” and nothing else. They didn't talk. With the mocking unrelenting, the girl texted her sister, “It’s not getting handled.”

    And so she handled it herself.

    Every moment she waited she was being further victimized, further harassed, and further threatened. Sexual harassment is considered sufficiently threatening behavior for self-defense to be justified, and that's how the police are handling it.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    She could have gone to her parents, a counselor or a trusted adult to help her manage her emotions

    ...

    Managing emotions can’t be done through external acts, it is an internal act

    Pick a lane.

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  • [–] 21 points 10 months ago (5 children)
    1. It's more than just feelings being hurt, this is illegal.
    2. What does this oh-so-perfect system do? Punishes wrongdoing. Guess what a fist to the face does.
    3. The harm done is trauma, that poor girl is probably traumatised for life and will most likely need hours of therapy to deal with something like this. Actions hurt people, threats in the physical realm aren't the only ones that matter.
    4. You know what's barbaric? A society where this sort of antisocial, criminal, traumatising behaviour goes unpunished. This is sexual harassment and the school didn't want bad press so they just shrugged it off. She was forced to take matters into her own hands when the sexual harassment continued.
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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    the situation didn't just naturally become worse. it's only worse because the school shares opinions with you.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    did the school not intervene by punishing her? the problems only arose because they agree with you.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    the problem (her punishment) was not a natural result of her actions. it ocurred because the school interfered

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  • [–] 15 points 10 months ago (8 children)

    As soon as society refuses to adequately intervene to stop the harm, any degree of harm justifies any level of force necessary to end that harm. Your position is only valid so long as society is willing to intercede on behalf of the victim.

    The content in question also isn’t actually them.

    The content in question is harassment at a minimum. It is harm. Serious harm.

    Being violent just because your feeling are hurt is barbaric and has no place in a society.

    So long as society is willing to intercede against the harm caused by harassers, I agree. Here, that intercession was explicitly denied. The school refused to act. The school failed to even separate or supervise the two parties. Consequently, society lost its ethical justification for criticizing the victim's efforts to end her victimization. With the school failing to act reasonably or responsibly, we don't get to criticize the victim's actions.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    So if a man is hurt by a woman and the world doesn’t stop that harm, is any degree of harm justified and any level of force necessary to end that harm, justified?

    Yes.

    Society fails at justice

    I see the problem. You are conflating "stopping harm" with "justice". There is a massive difference between the two concepts, and we aren't talking about justice here.

    Asking police to stop the woman from keying his car is an attempt to stop harm. Asking the prosecutor to charge her with destruction of property is an attempt to seek justice. You described a scenario where the woman is actively harming the man. He is, indeed, justified in using any level of force necessary to end that harm. You did not describe a scenario where the woman has previously caused harm, but is no longer doing so.

    Keep in mind that the boy on the bus was actively engaged in harassing his victim at the time his victim used physical force against him. She was not attempting to retaliate for past harms; she was not attempting to seek justice. She was attempting to end the harm he was in the process of perpetrating.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (6 children)
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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    Not quite. You shortened the phrase. You dropped five critical words that were present in the original phrase:

    and any level of force necessary to end that harm

    Further, you're dishonestly relying on a colloquial definition of "harm", rather than a legal one. "Rejection" does not qualify.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    We're at the point of the conversation where you recognize her actions in these specific circumstances were at least understandable, if not reasonable and rational. We're at the point of the conversation where you acknowledge she was the victim. We're at the point in the conversation where you acknowledge the school failed to properly supervise her and her harasser on the bus, and erred greatly in their disciplinary action.

    We're at the point where you point out that violence is not acceptable, but that given his actions and the multiple failures of the school pushed her to do something that she would not normally do, and should not have been punished for.

    We're at the point in the conversation where you recognize you have been improperly assigning excessive blame to the victim, and decide to delete, or at least amend your previous arguments to portray yourself as a reasonable person.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (3 children)

    Perhaps you should stop blaming the victim.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (2 children)

    Indeed. Why would we not blame the school and the harasser for creating this situation?

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    Indeed. Let us quantify that:

    • What percentage of the total blame for the physical altercation should be assigned to the harasser?
    • What percentage of the total blame for the physical altercation should be assigned to the school?
    • What percentage of the total blame for the physical altercation should be assigned to the girl?
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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

    Yes, indeed. Quantify your position, please. How much responsibility for the physical altercation does each party bear?

    I would say that the boy is primarily responsible for the altercation. Without his egregious, deplorable, and criminal harassment instigating her response, there would have been no altercation. That translates to 51% to 100% of the blame.

    The school bears secondary responsibility. The school acts in loco parentis. They are obligated to adequately supervise and protect their students. Here, they put harasser and victim, unsupervised, in close proximity to eachother. That is completely unreasonable. That translates to 0% to 49% of the blame.

    The girl's responsibility is less than that of the school. She was suffering undue sexual harassment. She reasonably asked for relief from that harassment, and her requests were refused by the school charged with providing that relief. She was under duress at the time of the altercation. With those factors, full and sole responsibility cannot be assigned to her. That translates to 0% to 24% of the blame.

    Do you believe she bears more than 24% of the blame for the physical altercation? Do you believe she bears more responsibility than either the boy or the school? Quantify your position, please. I want to know exactly how much blame you are assigning to the victim.

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  • [+] 10 points 10 months ago (5 children)
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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago* (1 child)

    You're allowed to defend yourself from threatening behavior, such as sexual harassment. That's why the police are charging the creep making child porn, while the girl who smacked him around is not facing legal consequences.

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  • [–] 9 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    When peaceful resolution is made impossible, violent resolution becomes inevitable.

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago*

    I mean, if they're in the ground, they won't be making nonconsensual porn anymore. That sounds like a pretty damn effective resolution if I ever heard one. Brian Robert Thompson hasn't murdered anyone in months, and that guy killed tens of thousands of innocent people.

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  • [–] 21 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    Being a victim of one thing doesn’t justify becoming a perpetrator of something else.

    From the article:

    the female victim will not face charges in the attack.

    She faces no charges; she is not a perpetrator. Let's be very fucking clear on this point: nothing she did has been determined to have been "illegal". Since her actions don't violate law, we are left with discussing only morality and ethicality.

    tried to get others to join in

    Yes, she did. The first entity she asked to "join in" was the school itself. She asked the school for help. The school was given ample opportunity to end the harassment, and refused. Only after the school's refusal did she ask anyone else to help stop the harassment.

    As soon as the school failed to act, she became ethically justified in acting directly to end the harassment. She became ethically justified in requesting the help of others to aid her in that effort.

    Your entire argument stopped being valid the moment the school failed to adequately intervene against the harasser.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    Do you understand the legal concepts of "Instigation" and "incitement"?

    The person who throws the punch is not always the person legally responsible for the punch being thrown. When his unreasonable actions rise to the level of "instigation" or "incitement", he becomes responsible for the actions she takes against him.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

    You do understand that she's not being charged with that, right?

    What I am saying is that if I deliberately try to piss you off enough for you to take a swing at me, I become criminally responsible for the violent acts you take against me. That's "instigation".

    "Instigation" is why she isn't being charged with assault and battery. She's not responsible for the violence on the bus. He is.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah, you used the word "incite", but it doesn't actually mean what you seem to think it means.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

    It has more than one meaning, though.

    In this context, you're actually going to argue that you intended something other than the legal meaning?

    Me:

    The person who throws the punch is not always the person legally responsible for the punch being thrown. When his unreasonable actions rise to the level of “instigation” or “incitement”, he becomes responsible for the actions she takes against him.

    You:

    So the way she tried to incite others to commit felony assault?

    I was being charitable when I suggested you were simply ignorant of the meaning.

    You seem overly hostile though.

    I am reasonably confident I am arguing with an unreasonable, intellectually dishonest person. I do not believe you are arguing logically, rationally, or in good faith. My hostility arises from that belief.

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  • [–] 24 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    I knew there'd be some one like you in here spreading some victim blame around.

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  • [–] 18 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    Schrödinger accountability ? Be harassed and humiliated daily : nothing. Defend yourself : punition. She would have not strike him but the society forced her.

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  • [–] 15 points 10 months ago*

    When you say ‘society did not force her’, what exactly do you mean by this?

    Can you spell out the scenario that you concocted in your head as to how a girl, harshly bullied by having faked nude material of her passed around school without her consent, in front of her, should correctly behave in this situation? Keeping in mind, of course, that she already went to the socially acceptable and correct official channels which did nothing to help her?

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  • [–] 11 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    It 100% is: legally, you have the right to physically defend yourself from nonviolent crime- im allowed to hit the guy trying to break into my car if he doesnt stop when I yell at him to do so.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    If you genuinely think that breaking into a car is less violent than making and distributing child porn of someone then there is something very wrong with you.

    The boy was committing a sexually violent act that was designed to intimidate, humiliate and harm.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    It is absolutely less physically violent, I was never discussing violence in the broadest sense of the term, but physical violence.

    Which is interesting and perhaps you should review why you are selectively focusing on this - it is the reason people are saying you are victim-blaming, after all.

    You selectively pick the physical violence the victim employed as a reaction to the sexual violence she experienced. You consciously choose to ignore the sexual violence having been done to her, and in fact spell this out very clearly in your response here.

    In other words, you choose to ignore the violence the perpetrator originally employed, and only want to ‘discuss’ (i.e. delegitimise) the responsive violence employed by the victim as her last method of harm reduction. That is the classical rhetorical device used to victim-blame, and if you still actually can’t see it I’d suggest reading up on that and investigating your own ethics.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    She went to the authorities, who did absolutely nothing, so she was FORCED to take matters into her own hands. If I were her parents, I couldn't be prouder of her. I'd take her out to dinner anywhere she wants, then take her to a lawyer.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    Instigation. She is not being charged because she is not responsible for the assault. His deplorable and criminal acts of harassment against her make him criminally responsible for her attack.

    You do not get to harass someone so egregiously and incessantly as to instigate a physical altercation, and then call them "barbaric" for having attacked you.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    victim of her assault can still press charges.

    He can be charged with assault and battery, due to his instigation of the physical altercation.

    It is not other people’s responsibility for how you react to how you feel

    That is true only as a general condition, not an absolute one. There are certainly exceptions. "Instigation" is one such exception.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Then you concede that he instigated the attack. You don't need to continue blaming the victim's violent response, because responsibility for those acts falls on the harassing instigator.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Intriguing. Please explain why "instigation" does not apply here.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_words

    There are certain well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech, the prevention and punishment of which have never been thought to raise any Constitutional problem. These include the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous, and the insulting or "fighting" words – those which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace. It has been well observed that such utterances are no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality.

    — Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 1942[1]

    His works and words certainly meet the court's criteria. He wasn't just generally offensive; he personalized his lewd, obscene, and libelous harassment directly toward his chosen victim.

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