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[+] -59 points 10 months ago* (24 children)
  • [–] 38 points 10 months ago (8 children)

    Hard disagree. What other option did she have at this point, she tried following proper channels to get the bullying resolved and when that didn't work, did the only other thing she could.

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  • [–] 15 points 10 months ago

    I would 100% go far further if this arrive to my daughter. I would go yo police reporting school sponsored diffusion of pedo pornography. And ruin the school reputation and have all parents involved. This would make me go thermonuclear.

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  • [+] -21 points 10 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 14 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    She could have gone to her parents, a counselor or a trusted adult to help her manage her emotions over the situation until a better resolution could be reached.

    She did. She fucking did all the things that you say she should have done. She availed herself of all the support structures you say she should have utilized, and they all failed her.

    Those parents, counselors, and trusted adults could have helped her "manage her emotions" by separating her from the harasser. Instead, they put the two of them together on a bus, effectively unsupervised. She did everything right. All of the social structures that should have supported her failed, and now you're all that the most reasonable course of action she had was direct violence.

    The school's actions were foolish, lazy, unhelpful, and unacceptable. In the specific circumstances she faced, her actions were perfectly reasonable.

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  • [+] -5 points 10 months ago* (4 children)
  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    They weren't working the issue, they were ignoring her. The administrators clearly thought she was making shit up.

    Now he's facing charges because she forced the police to look into it.

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  • [+] -2 points 10 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago

    Giving a bit more context it wasn't just this one girl. This was a child porn trading ring with multiple victims, and they all had gone to the school administration and some even went to the police.

    The principal, Danielle Coriell, said an investigation came up cold that day as no student took responsibility. The deputy assigned to the school searched social media for the images unsuccessfully, according to a recording of the disciplinary hearing.

    “I was led to believe that this was just hearsay and rumors,” the girl’s father said, recounting a conversation he had that morning with the school counselor.

    But the girl was miserable, and a police incident report showed more girls were reporting that they were victims, too. The 13-year-old returned to the counselor in the afternoon, asking to call her father. She said she was refused.

    Her father says she sent a text message that said, “Dad,” and nothing else. They didn't talk. With the mocking unrelenting, the girl texted her sister, “It’s not getting handled.”

    And so she handled it herself.

    Every moment she waited she was being further victimized, further harassed, and further threatened. Sexual harassment is considered sufficiently threatening behavior for self-defense to be justified, and that's how the police are handling it.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    She could have gone to her parents, a counselor or a trusted adult to help her manage her emotions

    ...

    Managing emotions can’t be done through external acts, it is an internal act

    Pick a lane.

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  • [+] -10 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    To play devil's advocate, at that point she had photographic evidence of this happening, so she could have gone back to the school/police with it and let them handle it.

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  • [–] 14 points 10 months ago

    Counter devils advocate: our legal system does allow civilians to stop a crime in progress against themselves, physically, even if the crime itself is nonviolent in nature.

    For instance, If i witness someone stealing my property, I am allowed to use reasonable, non-deadly force in defense of my property. She faced serious, permanent, and ongoing mental harm, which she had every right to attempt to stop as it occurred

    And the police have fundamentaly agreed she was justified in her actions, and upheld this right, as shes not being charged.

    (Although personally I think they should threaten school officials with charges of conspiracy after the fact and abetting the dissemination of csam for the expulsion, to force them to recant it.)

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  • [–] 21 points 10 months ago (5 children)
    1. It's more than just feelings being hurt, this is illegal.
    2. What does this oh-so-perfect system do? Punishes wrongdoing. Guess what a fist to the face does.
    3. The harm done is trauma, that poor girl is probably traumatised for life and will most likely need hours of therapy to deal with something like this. Actions hurt people, threats in the physical realm aren't the only ones that matter.
    4. You know what's barbaric? A society where this sort of antisocial, criminal, traumatising behaviour goes unpunished. This is sexual harassment and the school didn't want bad press so they just shrugged it off. She was forced to take matters into her own hands when the sexual harassment continued.
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  • [+] -26 points 10 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    the situation didn't just naturally become worse. it's only worse because the school shares opinions with you.

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  • [+] -6 points 10 months ago* (4 children)
  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    did the school not intervene by punishing her? the problems only arose because they agree with you.

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  • [+] -5 points 10 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    the problem (her punishment) was not a natural result of her actions. it ocurred because the school interfered

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  • [+] -1 points 10 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    i really cant understand the need to pretend that this is a sensible analogy

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  • [–] 15 points 10 months ago (8 children)

    As soon as society refuses to adequately intervene to stop the harm, any degree of harm justifies any level of force necessary to end that harm. Your position is only valid so long as society is willing to intercede on behalf of the victim.

    The content in question also isn’t actually them.

    The content in question is harassment at a minimum. It is harm. Serious harm.

    Being violent just because your feeling are hurt is barbaric and has no place in a society.

    So long as society is willing to intercede against the harm caused by harassers, I agree. Here, that intercession was explicitly denied. The school refused to act. The school failed to even separate or supervise the two parties. Consequently, society lost its ethical justification for criticizing the victim's efforts to end her victimization. With the school failing to act reasonably or responsibly, we don't get to criticize the victim's actions.

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  • [+] -4 points 10 months ago* (8 children)
  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    So if a man is hurt by a woman and the world doesn’t stop that harm, is any degree of harm justified and any level of force necessary to end that harm, justified?

    Yes.

    Society fails at justice

    I see the problem. You are conflating "stopping harm" with "justice". There is a massive difference between the two concepts, and we aren't talking about justice here.

    Asking police to stop the woman from keying his car is an attempt to stop harm. Asking the prosecutor to charge her with destruction of property is an attempt to seek justice. You described a scenario where the woman is actively harming the man. He is, indeed, justified in using any level of force necessary to end that harm. You did not describe a scenario where the woman has previously caused harm, but is no longer doing so.

    Keep in mind that the boy on the bus was actively engaged in harassing his victim at the time his victim used physical force against him. She was not attempting to retaliate for past harms; she was not attempting to seek justice. She was attempting to end the harm he was in the process of perpetrating.

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  • [+] -3 points 10 months ago (7 children)
  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (6 children)
  • [+] -1 points 10 months ago (6 children)
  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    Not quite. You shortened the phrase. You dropped five critical words that were present in the original phrase:

    and any level of force necessary to end that harm

    Further, you're dishonestly relying on a colloquial definition of "harm", rather than a legal one. "Rejection" does not qualify.

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  • [+] -2 points 10 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    We're at the point of the conversation where you recognize her actions in these specific circumstances were at least understandable, if not reasonable and rational. We're at the point of the conversation where you acknowledge she was the victim. We're at the point in the conversation where you acknowledge the school failed to properly supervise her and her harasser on the bus, and erred greatly in their disciplinary action.

    We're at the point where you point out that violence is not acceptable, but that given his actions and the multiple failures of the school pushed her to do something that she would not normally do, and should not have been punished for.

    We're at the point in the conversation where you recognize you have been improperly assigning excessive blame to the victim, and decide to delete, or at least amend your previous arguments to portray yourself as a reasonable person.

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  • [+] -2 points 10 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (3 children)

    Perhaps you should stop blaming the victim.

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  • [+] 0 points 10 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (2 children)

    Indeed. Why would we not blame the school and the harasser for creating this situation?

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  • [+] 0 points 10 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    Indeed. Let us quantify that:

    • What percentage of the total blame for the physical altercation should be assigned to the harasser?
    • What percentage of the total blame for the physical altercation should be assigned to the school?
    • What percentage of the total blame for the physical altercation should be assigned to the girl?
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  • [+] -1 points 10 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

    Yes, indeed. Quantify your position, please. How much responsibility for the physical altercation does each party bear?

    I would say that the boy is primarily responsible for the altercation. Without his egregious, deplorable, and criminal harassment instigating her response, there would have been no altercation. That translates to 51% to 100% of the blame.

    The school bears secondary responsibility. The school acts in loco parentis. They are obligated to adequately supervise and protect their students. Here, they put harasser and victim, unsupervised, in close proximity to eachother. That is completely unreasonable. That translates to 0% to 49% of the blame.

    The girl's responsibility is less than that of the school. She was suffering undue sexual harassment. She reasonably asked for relief from that harassment, and her requests were refused by the school charged with providing that relief. She was under duress at the time of the altercation. With those factors, full and sole responsibility cannot be assigned to her. That translates to 0% to 24% of the blame.

    Do you believe she bears more than 24% of the blame for the physical altercation? Do you believe she bears more responsibility than either the boy or the school? Quantify your position, please. I want to know exactly how much blame you are assigning to the victim.

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