Lemmygrad is a collection of Marxist communities, for memes, learning, news, discussion, media, or anything you like.

There's a big chance that your instance blocks Lemmygrad, so the best way to interact with the community is either joining there or creating an account on an instance that doesn't blocks us. You can check this on the instaces section of your instance. This is what it looks like for Lemmy, but you can basically add /instances to the URL and it will take you there.

Due to the huge influx of users after the Reddit debacle Lemmygrad got a lot of account requests so it takes time for approval, be patient.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] 1 point 11 months ago (49 children)

Got banned for critisizing China's complicity in the Gaza genocide. Lemmygrad is not an ML server. It is a China server.

  • source
  • hideshow 49 child comments
  • [–] 8 points 11 months ago (34 children)

    With all due respect, this is wrong. You were banned for reducing everyone's contextualizing of China's decision (that aligns with Hamas and the PA) to "China good," then attacking everyone in the comments when they tried to explain in more detail. As far as I know, you don't consider yourself a Marxist-Leninist, but are more of an anti-imperialist.

    What's important is that Hamas requested condemnation and the presentation of an alternative, and the PA requested that it pass. China and Russia complied with both requests. In all messaging from the resistance, there is correct condemnation of the architects and supporters of the plan, not of those who abstained.

    China and Russia do not have millitary bases all over the world. They cannot just invade and liberate Palestine, especially when the internationally recognized authority over Palestine, the PA, supports the plan. Resistance groups see the PA as led by compradors, but don't wish to abolish the PLO but instead reform it. The PLO (as the PA) are kept in resistance talks, and are internationally recognized. Hamas does not claim the same status.

    China's non-intervention is not the same as the actual colonizers going in and trying to carry out their colonial project, and to focus on China when its options are limited instead of the actual perpetrators of colonization is the same logic western liberals use to condemn the resistance for any excess it commits and support Israel. By maximizing the sins of one side and minimizing the sins of the other, you equate what isn't equal, and are working in service of western narratives that this is something popularly supported and not something condemned by a huge portion of the world.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 34 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago* (33 children)
  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (32 children)
    1. Can you come up with the actual primary source? You run the manufacturing consent comm, you should know the difference between primary and secondary sources. Especially when it pertains to China and the resistance.

    2. China and Russia vetoing would not have changed the material outcome. UNSC decisions have never once prevented the US Empire from doing what it already decided. China's and Russia's abstention and drafting of an alternative plan while condmening the US plan is in line with Hamas's requests, and not vetoing the plan is in line with the PLO's requests (as the PA). China is not the soviet union, it doesn't play kingmaker, for better and worse, and this same non-interference policy broadly is why they are far preferred over the US Empire and its active genocidal interference.

    Launching a crusade against people contextualizing China's decision is counter-productive wrecker behavior that goes well beyond meaningful critique and straight into "left" anti-communism, and that's highlighted by you never once actually responding to any points you've recieved from Marxists. You just respond with images of twitter threads, it's insulting. I'm disappointed.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 32 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago* (31 children)
    1. The primary source is mentioned, Aljazeera. Dropsite is more than trustworthy enough when it comes to Palestine. They do some of the best reporting we have pertaining it.

    2. I don't think you understand just how bad the resolution is. It's literally the international rubber stamp of approval for the entire Israeli genocide. It states that an international force will go into Gaza to disarm the Palestinian resistance, and it explicitly endorses that Israel can keep colonizing Gaza until the resistance is disarmed. You can read it here, especially #7 https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/full-text-us-resolution-gaza-approved-un-security-council

    As the ISF establishes control and stability, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) will withdraw from the Gaza Strip based on standards, milestones, and timeframes linked to demilitarization that will be agreed between the IDF

    Russia and China even had a big mouth about how bad the resolution was and then let it pass. They can choose to give up their UNSC veto rights if they believe that "it means nothing". China and Russia are crucial part of the UN Imperialist council and have given their support blessings to Israel to colonize Palestine.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 31 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (30 children)
    1. Can't find anything from Aljazeera claiming Hamas specifically requested Russia and China veto the plan, only Hamas condemning the plan, which is obvious as it's a genocidal colonial project. The closest I can find is saying that the plan nominally declares that the PA has authority over Gaza, which they were optimistic about, though that may not have been from Hamas specifically as there were other mesdages mixed in, and that ultimately they don't believe the PA will really get any authority.

    2. I'm aware that the plan is genocidal and colonial in nature. It's terrible, disgustingly so, and not a single person I've seen has tried to convince you otherwise. I even explained how it's likely worse than you think. What I asked, was why you think China or Russia vetoing it would stop it, as no UNSC decision has ever stopped the US Empire from doing what it wants. Adding onto this, the US stated that any veto would result in a "return to war," ie a return to genocide on an expanded scale.

    Again, I have a good deal of respect for you as someone normally with good political instincts and an anti-imperialist stance, but the problem with relying on instincts is that you sometimes overcompensate and misattribute blame. The UNSC is theater. It isn't a real council, what matters is economic control and millitary projection, and the US and gulf states have far more of that than Russia and China do in the region.

    I hope you can at least consider what I say with some degree of respect, I figure I'm owed at least that much after I've consistently proven myself to be firmly anti-Zionist and pro-Palestinian for years, even pre-Al Aqsa Flood.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 30 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago* (21 children)
    1. Are you looking on Al Jazeera Mubasher? https://youtu.be/4WbEtYY82KE?t=333
      Here's the link. Auto-translated subtitles from what I skimmed showed a pretty fierce condemnation of the proposal.
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 21 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (20 children)

    Thanks, that's better. I see condemnation of the horrible genocidal plan, yes, but no requests to China and Russia to veto it, which leads back to my core point: China's foreign policy relies on respecting the sovereignty of states, not groups within states. When groups in MENA like Algeria back the plan, the PA backs the plan, and the US threatens to heighten the genocide if the deal isn't backed, then China's hand is extremely limited. Vetoing means the US gets a free excuse to cancel the already farcical ceasefire and ramp up the genocide in order to carry out the plan anyways.

    China and Russia breaking precedent and picking Hamas over the PA opens the door to the US backing seperatist groups in Taiwan in UNSC resolutions, ramp up the trade war, and more. Vetoing the plan wouldn't meaningfully stop the plan, it would give free excuses to the US to abolish the already farcical "ceasefire," which was their open threat at the table prior to voting. China and Russia condemning the plan, drafting an alternate resolution, and trying their best to appease both Hamas and the PA led them to abstention.

    Following the resolution, I have yet to see resistance groups specifically call out China and Russia, only condemning the UNSC plan and resolution. People highlighting the 2 that abstained over the dozen that voted gleefully for the plan and the countries that plan on actively participating and facilitating it are missing the core of the issue, the US Empire, Israel, and Europe.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 20 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago* (19 children)

    Interviewer : Has Hamas or the Palestinian resistance in general contacted any of the states that possess the veto power, such as Russia or China, to oppose the U.S. draft, or not?
    ‎ Hamdan : The Palestinian factions, including Hamas, have in recent days exerted great efforts in political communications to secure a resolution that would define the international force’s main mission as protecting the Palestinian people from aggression and preventing genocide from being repeated, and that such forces be deployed along the lines of contact around Gaza, between the Strip and the territories occupied in 1948.
    ‎ We conducted contacts with most members of the Security Council—both permanent and non-permanent members. We also communicated with the Arab and Islamic groups about this matter and submitted a detailed memorandum responding to this resolution or proposal at the time, clarifying its danger to the Palestinian cause and its negative repercussions on the international system and international law.
    ‎ We hope that what we and other factions have submitted will be reflected in the Council’s corridors before the vote, and that its impact will appear in a resolution that does justice to the Palestinian people and protects them from occupation and the genocide the Zionist entity has committed over the past two years.
    ‎ Interviewer : Have you received any positive responses, whether from Russia, China, the Arab group, or current Security Council members, about opposing the U.S. draft if it is presented in its current form?
    ‎ Hamdan : Let us not get ahead of events. I prefer to see the results of our efforts and communications in the Council session rather than speak about what we heard from various parties, because in the end, the decisive outcome is what happens in the Council, not what was said in the talks.
    ‎ Interviewer : But you have no specific expectation as to what will happen in the Security Council tonight?
    ‎ Hamdan : We do have expectations, but I am not in a position to speak about them.

    *MTL

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 19 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (18 children)

    This is a case where I don't really think machine translation does it justice, but taking the translation at its word:

    Hamdan : The Palestinian factions, including Hamas, have in recent days exerted great efforts in political communications to secure a resolution that would define the international force’s main mission as protecting the Palestinian people from aggression and preventing genocide from being repeated, and that such forces be deployed along the lines of contact around Gaza, between the Strip and the territories occupied in 1948. We conducted contacts with most members of the Security Council—both permanent and non-permanent members. We also communicated with the Arab and Islamic groups about this matter and submitted a detailed memorandum responding to this resolution or proposal at the time, clarifying its danger to the Palestinian cause and its negative repercussions on the international system and international law. We hope that what we and other factions have submitted will be reflected in the Council’s corridors before the vote, and that its impact will appear in a resolution that does justice to the Palestinian people and protects them from occupation and the genocide the Zionist entity has committed over the past two years.

    We have a few key problems here. The resolution that was drafted obviously does not protect the Palestinian people from aggression, and the alternative drafted by Russia and China is not being accepted by the western powers. Despite China and Russia's efforts to change the resolution, including alternate proposals, the resolution that was decided by the western powers was what was voted on.

    Secondly, Hamas requested that they hoped what they and other factions submitted would be considered in the vote, and that is exactly what happened. The PA supported the resolution, and yet China and Russia did not vote to pass it. Instead, countries like Algeria voted for it alongside the US.

    Third, is the protection from genocide line. The US opened the talks with threats of heightened genocide should the resolution be vetoed. This isn't an empty threat. The US made it clear, either they will bomb the shit out of Palestine, or they will proceed with the plan. Returning to point 1, the alternatives presented by China and Russia were denied, and the draft was rushed.

    In short, a veto would have resulted in escalated conflict, a vote for would have resulted in full acceptance and a commitment to the colonial project, and an abstention would have resulted in the resolution passing but with the express disapproval of China and Russia, alongside their soon to come alternative propositions. China and Russia maintain the position of the two state solution and China in particular has stated that Palestine must be governed by Palestinians, and is willing to step in and make that happen if consensus among those in charge of Palestine is reached.

    There was no easy, correct answer given the requests from MENA countries and PA, and the threats of the US to escalate the genocide after a hard fought ceasefire, however weak, was reached.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 18 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (17 children)

    'Other factions' here refers to PIJ and other Palestinian resistance factions, not the PA.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 17 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (16 children)

    The PLO (also called the PA) has consistently been brought to the table, and rather than wanting destruction of the PLO, Hamas, the PFLP, etc all maintain their stance is to reform and democratize the PA as a national unity group. Strides have been made in that direction thanks to events like the 2024 Beijing conference, where all of the Palestinian resistance groups and the PA were brought together. The PA is also the internationally recognized state authority over Palestine. The idea that the PA doesn't at all count is, so far, conjecture on your part, unless you can find a primary source indicating that it isn't.

    I disagree with the PA's decision, and I know they are compradors. However, the resistance doesn't claim to be the authorities over Palestine, they maintain that the PA is, and that the PA needs to be reformed. Until that happens, the PA will always be seen as legitimate for the sake of UN resolutions.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 16 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago* (15 children)

    Hamas has no problem handig over governance of Gaza. They have publicly stated they wish to continue only as an armed resistance group. At this point doing governance is a hindrance to them. The problem is that the resolution specifically attacks Hamas as an armed resistance group.

    They would never agree to any resolution to lay down their weapons without a Palestinian state, in which case they would simply merge into the army of said Palestinian state with their weapons. Which brings us to another meme

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 15 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago* (14 children)

    Yes, so we have the PLO as the main authority in Gaza, and a resistance that will not disarm. The plan will not work to begin with, which is why China and Russia are drafting an alternative. Chinese nationalism has nothing to do with this, Hamas, the PFLP, etc will never disarm (nor should they) so the plan is a non-starter. China's goal of factional unity within the PLO, and Hamas, the PFLP, etc goal of a reformed PLO are the angle China is trying to work in order to achieve Palestinian statehood as a significant lever to pull in ending the genocide permanently.

    Don't share that shitty strawman of my position, I've never once stated anything similar to that. You're bigger than that, I hope.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 14 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago* (13 children)

    The plan will not work to begin with, which is why China and Russia are drafting an alternative

    China and Russia presented their alternative plan 2 days (iirc) before they passed the US resolution. The expectation was that they would veto the US resolution. With plenty of morally justifiable reasons, like the absence of a Palestinian state, they could easily present their own resolution as an alternative and win the moral highground.

    They didn't. They passed the US resolution instead.

    You aren't being strawmanned in any way.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 13 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago* (12 children)

    Yes and no, the entire plan was given 2 weeks before the vote, and China and Russia rushed to give an alternative. I've seen nowhere that the expectation was to veto, just to not endorse the plan, which neither country did. Back before the Korean war, the Soviet Union boycotted the UNSC decision to invade Korea, but we all know that wasn't an endorsement either. I suggest you read China's statement, if you haven't already.

    As for your strawmanning of me, you absolutely are.

    1. China did not endorse the plan to disarm the resistance. On the contrary, we know that will never happen anyways.

    2. I'm not a Chinese nationalist, I'm a Marxist-Leninist. I have criticized China, I even said I would rather they take a more millitant stance in anti-imperialism rather than continue their present strategy. I think they are more than strong enough to do so in a way that the soviet union wasn't sustainably.

    3. I never once asked "why don't "arabs" do armed uprisings against their oppressors." I'm fully aware of the resistance's stance towards the PA/PLO, and I'm also aware that China was pivotal in the 2024 Beijing Declaration that resulted in the following:

    According to the declaration, the factions agreed to achieve "a comprehensive Palestinian national unity that includes all Palestinian factions under the PLO framework, and to commit to the establishment of an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital […] with the help of Egypt, Algeria, China and Russia". They stated that this would take the form of a temporary national unity government. They further "agreed to deploy all efforts to lift the Israeli blockade on Gaza and ensure the unimpeded delivery of humanitarian aid into the enclave".[15]

    Side note: Algeria broke this by endorsing the plan.

    The declaration also stressed the Palestinian people's right to resist the Israeli occupation in accordance with international law and the United Nations charter and to thwart any attempts to displace Palestinians from their land.

    China did not endorse the plan, knows that the resistance will never disarm, and was caught between the PLO's endorsement of the plan and the resistances opposition to it. They abstained, and committed to working to establish Palestinian statehood, including the right to remain armed.

    As I said, I would have rather them veto it anyways, but your framing of them as endorsing the plan and making a full pivot into participation in TRUST is what I take issue with. I wish China was doing more, but at the same time I'm not going to pretend they're the same as the US here.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 12 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    There's no difference between abstaining and voting for the resolution. The result is the same.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (2 children)

    The result doesn't matter, though. As you already said, the ceasefire isn't real, the US Empire will go through with the genocidal settlement plan no matter what the results were. What matters is what China does materially, which has thus far included uniting Hamas and Fatah, establishing ties between Saudi Arabia and Iran, and presenting an alternative economic bloc to that which relies on Palestinian obliteration. You and I may argue that this is insufficient, but the major difference is that you argue that it's evidence that China supports the genocide, is imperialist, and therefore must be destroyed, giving liberals ammo to oppose China across the board and uplift the west as a more "moral" alternative.

    If you don't actually think China should be destroyed, and is just not doing enough when it could be doing more, then you should reframe your critique into saying that it isn't doing enough and that it isn't sufficiently anti-imperialist. Doing so is far more productive and doesn't give the liberals chances to "both sides" anything.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] -1 points 11 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago

    Gotcha, you picked an unrelated strawman. I already said I would have rather China veto'd, the fact that you either don't care enough to find an accurate twitter post or chose not to read my comment reveals your position. You care less about coming to an understanding with people who largely agree with you and more about arguing online.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] -1 points 11 months ago (7 children)
  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (6 children)

    I never once told you to read, and you never once explained how the resolution being veto'd would stop it. I already told you that I'd rather China veto'd it, but you care more about arguing online than anything else.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    More unrelated strawman arguments.

    1. I said I'd rather China veto'd

    2. I explained that China is meaningfully supporting, like reconciling Fatah and Hamas

    3. I explained that the PRC's non-interventionist foreign policy is different from the soviet's, and that generally I prefer the soviet policy

    4. Your point wasn't that China isn't doing anything, but that it's an imperialist country trading Palestinian lives for favors, with no evidence.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (3 children)
    1. same
    2. Meaningfully supporting Israel now by giving it a UN mandate to colonize Palestine. I can also point to the West being the biggest UNRWA donor. Whitewashing deeds don't meaningfully change any of this.
    3. This is imperialism. They support an international colonization force now.
    4. It's beyond obvious that this is a pragmatic move by China to sell out Palestine in exchange for US concessions elsewhere. Russia instantly presented a similar Ukraine draft, and China got Nexperia back. Those are two things that come to mind. If you're saying that China didn't get anything in return for this vote then they wouldn't just be imperialist but also stupid. But certainly no concessions for Palestine.
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (2 children)
    1. Cool.

    2. China is not supporting Israel, nor the plan. They've already said they are dedicated to building a Palestinian state and that the current plan doesn't include that, and they also stated that disarmament is unacceptable.

    3. Wrong on two counts. China is not aiding or supporting the colonization, they just haven't taken an interventionist approach to stopping it like we would both likely prefer. Either way, this is not imperialism on China's part. Imperialism is a form of international extraction, the reason the west is imperialist with respect to Palestine is because they need the settler-colonial project as a landlocked aircraft carrier. China doesn't rely on the same international extraction, nor is it one of the active participants in colonizing Palestine. At worst, it's insufficient in its actions.

    4. You keep saying I'm using the same logic as Kamala supporters, but here you are saying "it's beyond obvious" and gesturing to things that don't have clear connections. This kind of baseless bashing is exactly what liberals do.

    I'd appreciate if you answered this directly:

    Do you believe China is imperialist, or insufficiently anti-imperialist? Which is it?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago* (1 child)
    1. They voted for the colonization plan haha are you going to tell me Kamala Harris supports a two state solution too?

    I will not respond to anything else this is a massive waste of time.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago

    The DNC was and is actively arming the IDF and is part of the same country planning and pushing for the colonization plan. This is ridiculous. China abstained, restated its continued goal of Palestinian statehood, and has stated that the resistance cannot be disarmed. China isn't the one arming the IDF, nor is it the one pushing the colonial plan. These are entirely different.

    You're pulling the same shit as those who said voting for PSL or not voting was a vote for Trump, literally doing liberal gymnastics right now, and accusing me of doing the same.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago* (7 children)

    I've answered every single statement you made multiple times over the past few days, with people on Lemmygrad being unable to do anything except call it 'trolling' and banning me. Which is why I respond more and more annoyed and assuming I'm with people who are bad faith.

    For almost everyone else I'd just post a Twitter screenshot but I'm going to make an exception for you in the hopes you're arguing in good-faith and not just blindly advocating for anything China does.

    1. The Dropsite Tweet contains Arabic text without any translation so I'm assuming it's the Arabic Aljazeera. English Aljazeera is extremely tame and tries to pander to a Western audience. For example you can find Aljazeera posting full Hamas combat videos on their Arabic Youtube channel, it's pretty wild. Dropsite has multiple Arabic and even local Palestinians on their reporting team gathering this info. Seeing how bad the UN resolution is, the Dropsite tweet looks very credible. If that's really all your concern I could look up whether it's real but if it's not going to change your mind I'm not going to waste my time on it.

    2. This is not about whether China or Russia can stop it. It's whether they endorse it. The reason people recognize Israel's borders where it is, is because the United Imperialists in 1948 voted to steal half of Palestine and give it to European colonists. The reason the UN is seen as a toothless tiger is because every time a controversial resolution heavily favoring one side is introduced, it is vetoed by the other party. Except now. I would urge you to directly stop quoting any other Arab Zionist country. Everyone has known long before this week that they are Western aligned and quoting them as if they have any say over the Palestinians is extremely imperialistic. This tweet really does describe that better than I ever could

    As for the "return to war", Israel bombed and killed more than 25 Palestinians right after the resolution passed. To the surprise of no-one.

    The only thing China and Russia have done is fully normalize the genocide which they pretended to be against for 2 years and publicly announce that they believe the IDF has the right to colonize Gaza because we both know the resistance isn't disarming. And even if it would, the IDF would claim a false flag rocket and stay there anyways. This resolution does nothing for Palesitinians except the entire United Imperialists endorsing the genocide, and collectively agreeing to reward Israel for committing genocide for two entire years, while Israel is actively violating the current ceasefire

    China also wouldn't lose face by opposing this Zionist resolution, they would save face. The resolution contained many easy points of opposition. For example it doesn't include a Palestinian state at all. It only serves Israel, which is already saying the quiet part out loud, they're not going to give Palestinians a state even if the resistance would be disarmed (just look at the West Bank to find out what happens if they disarm anyway).

    I figure I’m owed at least that much after I’ve consistently proven myself to be firmly anti-Zionist and pro-Palestinian for years, even pre-Al Aqsa Flood.

    This is the mask off moment for many people to show whether they truly support Palestinians because they oppose imperialism and oppression (if you think I'm an 'anti-imperialist' then any "true marxist-leninist" should go way harder on this than me, I'm sure you know the ML position on imperialism). Or whether they were simply ML cosplayers who only supported Palestine because it used to be the official Chinese position, which is now no longer valid, but they have bound their entire identity to supporting China and therefore cannot mentally deal with the contradictions (similar to showing a 'progressive' that AOC is a Zionist but they just keep coping).

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (6 children)

    For starters, I appreciate that you at least are responding to me. I hope you understand that more than most, I try to maintain good-faith. I know that your intentions are in the right place, which is why I am trying to reach out rather than just sit out.

    You were given numerous lengthy responses, and then you answered them with quips and tweets. That's what got you labeled a wrecker more than someone legitimately criticizing China's position. I understand that you weren't trying to troll, but at the same time I understand why they recieved it that way, many people met your energy with lengthy comments explaining their positions and you didn't respond in kind.

    1. Regarding the dropsite tweet, it looks like deceptichum found a more direct source. It's machine translated though. I responded to it there, it seems the interviewer was trying to directly ask if Hamas asked Russia and China to veto, while Hamdan responded in a manner that almost dodges that point, instead directly calling for a better resolution (which China and Russia are drafting) as well as prevention of a return to the all-out genocide as compared to the "slower" genocide of the post-"ceasefire" resolution.

    2. This isn't the case, though. China released explanations for their abstention here. They aren't endorsing the resolution, they maintain that it's an awful resolution and that a better alternative needs to be drafted, per the requests of resistance groups. The PRC's stance has always been for factional unity within the PLO. Here's an excerpt from the above link:

    Notwithstanding the above-mentioned many issues in the draft resolution and China's major concerns about it, considering the fragile and severe situation in Gaza, the imperative of maintaining the ceasefire, and the positions of the regional countries and Palestine, China abstained in the vote. It must also be noted that our concerns and worries remain. The Security Council must maintain close attention to the situation in Gaza and the Palestinian question. The Palestinian question lies at the heart of the Middle East issues. It is a matter about international equity and justice. The international community must steadfastly advance the two-State solution and pursue the political settlement of the Palestinian question. It means establishing an independent Palestinian state with full sovereignty on the basis of the 1967 borders with East Jerusalem as its capital, therefore realizing the Palestinian people's right to statehood, survival. and return. China has always firmly supported the just cause of the Palestinian people in restoring their legitimate national rights. We stand ready to work with the international community to make unremitting efforts for a comprehensive, just, and lasting solution to the Palestinian question. 

    Considering the US threatened to escalate if the resolution was vetoed, and that China and Russia have no way to oppose it millitarily in the region, China picked abstention, consistent with their historical stance of siding with the PLO and opting for stability over returning to the heights of the war. Full sovereignty includes armament.

    The UN isn't seen as toothless because of how votes go and are vetod, the UN is toothless because the resolutions do not matter. Words on paper mean nothing to the genocidal US Empire, that's why the ceasefire is already being violated. What matters is economic and millitary might, and in this instance the US and the comprador countries have full supremacy over the region.

    I'm well aware of the ML stance on imperialism. Russia and China are not imperializing Palestine. Their passive anti-imperialism can absolutely be critiqued. I personally would want China to be more directly interventionist in Palestine. I understand them being wary after regular fuck ups in the latter 20th century, and I understand the risks, you yourself mentioned that you understand China not wanting trade to be used against them.

    My driving point is that there is a difference between disappointment with and critique of China, and completely flipping around and equating them to the actual perpetrators of colonization. The ones who directly endorsed the plan were the 13 members who voted for it, and the ones responsible for the colonization are the UK, France, Israel, Germany, the US, Italy, every country directly involved. This misattribution gives ammo to liberals that attack China as imperialist anyways, weakening the ability for China to succeed in establishing Palestinian statehood with which they can use not as a permanent two state solution, but as a lever to pull in supporting the Palestinian cause.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago* (5 children)

    You were given numerous lengthy responses

    Numerous bad responses full of either lies or justifications for Chinese imperialism. As I said before, I will not take people seriously who argue similarly to Kamala Harris fans and tell me that Harris China needs to support Israel because it's convenient to Harris China

    Words on paper mean nothing

    So why are we arguing on the internet? If words mean nothing and have no effect why do we even use words? The answer is that words do mean something. The UN is used as a public show of hands for countries to show their stances and whom they support in the world. Words like Casus Beli exist for a reason. Now Israel can claim international legitimacy to keep their Nazi soldiers in Gaza, and probably build settlements there soon.

    They aren’t endorsing the resolution

    They have a seat with veto rights at the UNSC. Once again, they can give up their seat if they want to pretend to be neutral powerless babies. Abstaining is a hypocritical vote in favor. China and Russia both know very well their abstention means it will pass the vote. Don't use this argument to defend them I regard it as incredibly bad faith. China is a critical member on the UNSC. They passed this resolution so they should stand behind it with pride. They already know their 'alternative' draft is going to get vetoed by the US. Why would the US let this pass? Either I'm severely overlooking something here or this is just a bad faith red herring against people who don't know how the UNSC voting works.

    Considering the US threatened to escalate if the resolution was vetoed

    .....So? The US and Israel say they're going to escalate every single day. Trump said he was going to flatten Gaza the day he came to power. The difference is that now the genocide has China's blessing. I even provided you with the example of Israel instantly violating the UNSC resolution and committing a massacare on 25 Palestinians. They don't care about it. The only thing China and Russia did was give Israel international approval for the genocide.

    We both know that this sham imperialist UN force will in no way stabilize the region. The only way to stabilize it is by removing the destabilizzing force. Which is done with armed resistance.

    This misattribution gives ammo to liberals that attack China as imperialist

    Good. It's not a misattribution. China is endorsing a the genocide of Palestinians as a bargaining chip for their own gain. They got Nexperia back the very next day. Nothing you have said shows in any way that China is serious about the Palestinian cause. They are increasing trade with Israel and building out Israeli infrastructure, even building colonist settlements in the West Bank.

    weakening the ability for China to succeed in establishing Palestinian statehood

    Why count on China to do the right thing when they have just proven to do the wrong thing? If people don't push back against that, you can bet China will keep doing it. If China wants to earn back that trust they should start showing some serious dedication to Palestine. This exactly the argument DNC libs used during the election. "Yes Kamala is firmly on the side of Israel, but it's only because she needs to to get elected. We need to support her now and she will do better when she gets in power. She is the lesser evil and we shouldn't criticize her".

    Unless you have a very compelling reply which isn't just an excuse why it's okay when China does imperialism, this will be my last response here or I will respond with a Twitter post which says basically the same thing.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    Numerous bad responses full of either lies or justifications for Chinese imperialism.

    This is why you are being labeled a wrecker. China abstaining and trying to abide by both the PLO and resistance groups, who I might add already agreed on the PLO as the national authority for international representation, is not imperialism. You might say that it's weak anti-imperialism, but it is by no means imperialism proper.

    Secondly, arguing on the internet is all we can do, other than organize in real life to undermine western support for Israel. My hope is that I can convince you to reframe your analysis from "China is imperialist and therefore must be destroyed" into "China is being insufficiently anti-imperialist." It sounds like you believe the latter, but you call them imperialist, giving liberals ammo rather than providing actual leftist critique.

    China isn't standing behind the resolution with pride, because it disagrees with the resolution. Since you value words greatly, read their full statement.

    We both know that this sham imperialist UN force will in no way stabilize the region. The only way to stabilize it is by removing the destabilizzing force. Which is done with armed resistance.

    Agreed. So does China.

    Good. It’s not a misattribution. China is endorsing a the genocide of Palestinians as a bargaining chip for their own gain. They got Nexperia back the very next day.

    This is conspiracy theory nonsense and you have nothing to back it up other than that it aligns with how you presently feel.

    Nothing you have said shows in any way that China is serious about the Palestinian cause.

    The 2024 Beijing Declaration reconciled Hamas and Fatah, and created a unified resistance in Palestine, along with support from China and an understanding that Palestinian statehood is a necessity and disarmament an impossibility.

    They are increasing trade with Israel and building out Israeli infrastructure, even building colonist settlements in the West Bank.

    This is bad, I agree! They are also working with resistance groups and trying to form a Palestinian state. I would say this is an example of China being insufficiently anti-imperialist, not equal to the US and EU who have been arming the IDF.

    Unless you have a very compelling reply which isn’t just an excuse why it’s okay when China does imperialism, this will be my last response here or I will respond with a Twitter post which says basically the same thing.

    You haven't given any examples of China doing imperialism. You've given good reasons to critique China for not being sufficiently anti-imperialist. The reason the distinction is important is because the assumption that China is imperialist means it cannot be reformed, and must be destroyed, whereas if China is insufficiently anti-imperialist, corrective action must be taken. The very fact that you say that it's good that the hordes of Zenz lovers are China bashing and using it for the purposes of arguing that China should be destroyed rather than principled leftist critique that they need to be doing better is exactly the problem. You're fueling the narrative that China is incapable of doing better.

    Go ahead, send another shitty, unrelated twitter post. I hope at the very least you understand the difference between being insufficiently anti-imperialist and being actively imperialist, and that fueling the latter narrative while believing the former just backfires and gives the Kamala brigade the upper hand in saying the US is a more moral alternative.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Why don't you comment on this part of their post?

    They have a seat with veto rights at the UNSC. Once again, they can give up their seat if they want to pretend to be neutral powerless babies. Abstaining is a hypocritical vote in favor. China and Russia both know very well their abstention means it will pass the vote.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago

    Because I didn't think it was important to address. Giving up a seat on the security council would be stupid, in case it ever actually has teeth. It's also good for diplomacy on the international scene. There's no scenario where China would abandon the seat.

    As for abstaining being a vote for, no. Vetoing would not prevent the US from continuing with their plan, China abstained and stated their actual stances, pushing for Palestinian statehood and not disarming. UNSC resolutions don't really have the power to stop the US Empire.

    Would I rather China have veto'd? Yes. Does abstaining make them equivalent to those orchestrating and fueling the genocide? By no means, at worst it means they aren't sufficiently anti-imperialist, in no way does it make them imperialist.

  • source
  • parent
  • [+] 4 points 11 months ago* (10 children)
  • [–] -5 points 11 months ago (9 children)

    Yes Hexbear is a Zionist server which believes that Contrapoints being trans means nobody is allowed to criticize Contrapoints for being a Zionist.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 9 child comments
  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Wow. I don’t think your hyperbole is for dramatic effect. This sounds more like the UNSC vote has induced distorted thinking about those who until this week you saw as Palestinian allies but now see as enemies.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] -2 points 11 months ago

    For clarification my position on Hexbear has been formed before the Chinese betrayal.

    As for the UNSC vote, spare me the justification for the Chinese hypocrisy.

    Would you say they same if Russia and Iran were on the UNSC and passed a US resolution claiming Taiwan is an independent nation and China should be demilitarized?

  • source
  • parent
  • [+] 3 points 11 months ago* (6 children)
  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago (5 children)

    Now show me what part of the video I posted there is transphobic.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [+] 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children)
  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    So you're telling me this entire thing is not even about his videos but about a single edgy tweet BE made months ago.

    Meanwhile ChapoTrapHouse is literally advocating for the mass murdering baby killing rapist right now and you're all gleefully on their community. So far for purity tests.

    https://youtu.be/1Zb6fZCqdrQ?t=6360

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [+] 1 point 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)
  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    I don't watch them

    The comm I got banned on is the ChapoTrapHouse comm. Also conveniently you ignore the link with clear evidence.

    Nothing BE said even comes remotely close to "murdering trans people for money is completely fine and I would vote for a person who unrepentantly did that".

    Which is what ChapoTrapHouse and every other supposed "leftist" are saying pertaining Graham Platner if you replace the word "Iraqi" with "trans".

    Should I now advocate to cancel Hasan Piker, ChapoTrapHouse and the entire "left", when they do make a video which advocates for oppressed minorities?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] [S] 3 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Ive read plenty of criticisms of China, maybe it was the way you put it or something else.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago*

    No it's for real criticism of China. China and Russia voted to pass the United States UNSC resolution to couple IDF withdrawal from Gaza to disarming the Palestinian resistance. Officially showing Chinese approval for the genocide in Gaza.

    The Lemmygrad "Marxist-Leninists" can't cope with anyone calling out Chinese imperialism because their sole grasp on theory is "China good".

  • source
  • parent