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Join Lemmygrad, the Marxist-Leninist Instance (lemmygrad.ml)
submitted 3 years ago by to c/communism@lemmy.ml
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Lemmygrad is a collection of Marxist communities, for memes, learning, news, discussion, media, or anything you like.

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[–] 1 point 11 months ago* (5 children)

You were given numerous lengthy responses

Numerous bad responses full of either lies or justifications for Chinese imperialism. As I said before, I will not take people seriously who argue similarly to Kamala Harris fans and tell me that Harris China needs to support Israel because it's convenient to Harris China

Words on paper mean nothing

So why are we arguing on the internet? If words mean nothing and have no effect why do we even use words? The answer is that words do mean something. The UN is used as a public show of hands for countries to show their stances and whom they support in the world. Words like Casus Beli exist for a reason. Now Israel can claim international legitimacy to keep their Nazi soldiers in Gaza, and probably build settlements there soon.

They aren’t endorsing the resolution

They have a seat with veto rights at the UNSC. Once again, they can give up their seat if they want to pretend to be neutral powerless babies. Abstaining is a hypocritical vote in favor. China and Russia both know very well their abstention means it will pass the vote. Don't use this argument to defend them I regard it as incredibly bad faith. China is a critical member on the UNSC. They passed this resolution so they should stand behind it with pride. They already know their 'alternative' draft is going to get vetoed by the US. Why would the US let this pass? Either I'm severely overlooking something here or this is just a bad faith red herring against people who don't know how the UNSC voting works.

Considering the US threatened to escalate if the resolution was vetoed

.....So? The US and Israel say they're going to escalate every single day. Trump said he was going to flatten Gaza the day he came to power. The difference is that now the genocide has China's blessing. I even provided you with the example of Israel instantly violating the UNSC resolution and committing a massacare on 25 Palestinians. They don't care about it. The only thing China and Russia did was give Israel international approval for the genocide.

We both know that this sham imperialist UN force will in no way stabilize the region. The only way to stabilize it is by removing the destabilizzing force. Which is done with armed resistance.

This misattribution gives ammo to liberals that attack China as imperialist

Good. It's not a misattribution. China is endorsing a the genocide of Palestinians as a bargaining chip for their own gain. They got Nexperia back the very next day. Nothing you have said shows in any way that China is serious about the Palestinian cause. They are increasing trade with Israel and building out Israeli infrastructure, even building colonist settlements in the West Bank.

weakening the ability for China to succeed in establishing Palestinian statehood

Why count on China to do the right thing when they have just proven to do the wrong thing? If people don't push back against that, you can bet China will keep doing it. If China wants to earn back that trust they should start showing some serious dedication to Palestine. This exactly the argument DNC libs used during the election. "Yes Kamala is firmly on the side of Israel, but it's only because she needs to to get elected. We need to support her now and she will do better when she gets in power. She is the lesser evil and we shouldn't criticize her".

Unless you have a very compelling reply which isn't just an excuse why it's okay when China does imperialism, this will be my last response here or I will respond with a Twitter post which says basically the same thing.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    Numerous bad responses full of either lies or justifications for Chinese imperialism.

    This is why you are being labeled a wrecker. China abstaining and trying to abide by both the PLO and resistance groups, who I might add already agreed on the PLO as the national authority for international representation, is not imperialism. You might say that it's weak anti-imperialism, but it is by no means imperialism proper.

    Secondly, arguing on the internet is all we can do, other than organize in real life to undermine western support for Israel. My hope is that I can convince you to reframe your analysis from "China is imperialist and therefore must be destroyed" into "China is being insufficiently anti-imperialist." It sounds like you believe the latter, but you call them imperialist, giving liberals ammo rather than providing actual leftist critique.

    China isn't standing behind the resolution with pride, because it disagrees with the resolution. Since you value words greatly, read their full statement.

    We both know that this sham imperialist UN force will in no way stabilize the region. The only way to stabilize it is by removing the destabilizzing force. Which is done with armed resistance.

    Agreed. So does China.

    Good. It’s not a misattribution. China is endorsing a the genocide of Palestinians as a bargaining chip for their own gain. They got Nexperia back the very next day.

    This is conspiracy theory nonsense and you have nothing to back it up other than that it aligns with how you presently feel.

    Nothing you have said shows in any way that China is serious about the Palestinian cause.

    The 2024 Beijing Declaration reconciled Hamas and Fatah, and created a unified resistance in Palestine, along with support from China and an understanding that Palestinian statehood is a necessity and disarmament an impossibility.

    They are increasing trade with Israel and building out Israeli infrastructure, even building colonist settlements in the West Bank.

    This is bad, I agree! They are also working with resistance groups and trying to form a Palestinian state. I would say this is an example of China being insufficiently anti-imperialist, not equal to the US and EU who have been arming the IDF.

    Unless you have a very compelling reply which isn’t just an excuse why it’s okay when China does imperialism, this will be my last response here or I will respond with a Twitter post which says basically the same thing.

    You haven't given any examples of China doing imperialism. You've given good reasons to critique China for not being sufficiently anti-imperialist. The reason the distinction is important is because the assumption that China is imperialist means it cannot be reformed, and must be destroyed, whereas if China is insufficiently anti-imperialist, corrective action must be taken. The very fact that you say that it's good that the hordes of Zenz lovers are China bashing and using it for the purposes of arguing that China should be destroyed rather than principled leftist critique that they need to be doing better is exactly the problem. You're fueling the narrative that China is incapable of doing better.

    Go ahead, send another shitty, unrelated twitter post. I hope at the very least you understand the difference between being insufficiently anti-imperialist and being actively imperialist, and that fueling the latter narrative while believing the former just backfires and gives the Kamala brigade the upper hand in saying the US is a more moral alternative.

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  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Why don't you comment on this part of their post?

    They have a seat with veto rights at the UNSC. Once again, they can give up their seat if they want to pretend to be neutral powerless babies. Abstaining is a hypocritical vote in favor. China and Russia both know very well their abstention means it will pass the vote.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago

    Because I didn't think it was important to address. Giving up a seat on the security council would be stupid, in case it ever actually has teeth. It's also good for diplomacy on the international scene. There's no scenario where China would abandon the seat.

    As for abstaining being a vote for, no. Vetoing would not prevent the US from continuing with their plan, China abstained and stated their actual stances, pushing for Palestinian statehood and not disarming. UNSC resolutions don't really have the power to stop the US Empire.

    Would I rather China have veto'd? Yes. Does abstaining make them equivalent to those orchestrating and fueling the genocide? By no means, at worst it means they aren't sufficiently anti-imperialist, in no way does it make them imperialist.

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