Cowbee comments on Join Lemmygrad, the Marxist-Leninist Instance

Join Lemmygrad, the Marxist-Leninist Instance (lemmygrad.ml)

submitted 3 years ago by gary_host_laptop@lemmy.ml to c/communism@lemmy.ml

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Lemmygrad is a collection of Marxist communities, for memes, learning, news, discussion, media, or anything you like.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 11 months ago (16 children)

The PLO (also called the PA) has consistently been brought to the table, and rather than wanting destruction of the PLO, Hamas, the PFLP, etc all maintain their stance is to reform and democratize the PA as a national unity group. Strides have been made in that direction thanks to events like the 2024 Beijing conference, where all of the Palestinian resistance groups and the PA were brought together. The PA is also the internationally recognized state authority over Palestine. The idea that the PA doesn't at all count is, so far, conjecture on your part, unless you can find a primary source indicating that it isn't.

I disagree with the PA's decision, and I know they are compradors. However, the resistance doesn't claim to be the authorities over Palestine, they maintain that the PA is, and that the PA needs to be reformed. Until that happens, the PA will always be seen as legitimate for the sake of UN resolutions.

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[–] geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml 0 points 11 months ago* (15 children)

Hamas has no problem handig over governance of Gaza. They have publicly stated they wish to continue only as an armed resistance group. At this point doing governance is a hindrance to them. The problem is that the resolution specifically attacks Hamas as an armed resistance group.

They would never agree to any resolution to lay down their weapons without a Palestinian state, in which case they would simply merge into the army of said Palestinian state with their weapons. Which brings us to another meme

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 11 months ago* (14 children)

Yes, so we have the PLO as the main authority in Gaza, and a resistance that will not disarm. The plan will not work to begin with, which is why China and Russia are drafting an alternative. Chinese nationalism has nothing to do with this, Hamas, the PFLP, etc will never disarm (nor should they) so the plan is a non-starter. China's goal of factional unity within the PLO, and Hamas, the PFLP, etc goal of a reformed PLO are the angle China is trying to work in order to achieve Palestinian statehood as a significant lever to pull in ending the genocide permanently.

Don't share that shitty strawman of my position, I've never once stated anything similar to that. You're bigger than that, I hope.

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[–] geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml 0 points 11 months ago* (13 children)

The plan will not work to begin with, which is why China and Russia are drafting an alternative

China and Russia presented their alternative plan 2 days (iirc) before they passed the US resolution. The expectation was that they would veto the US resolution. With plenty of morally justifiable reasons, like the absence of a Palestinian state, they could easily present their own resolution as an alternative and win the moral highground.

They didn't. They passed the US resolution instead.

You aren't being strawmanned in any way.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 11 months ago* (12 children)

Yes and no, the entire plan was given 2 weeks before the vote, and China and Russia rushed to give an alternative. I've seen nowhere that the expectation was to veto, just to not endorse the plan, which neither country did. Back before the Korean war, the Soviet Union boycotted the UNSC decision to invade Korea, but we all know that wasn't an endorsement either. I suggest you read China's statement, if you haven't already.

As for your strawmanning of me, you absolutely are.

China did not endorse the plan to disarm the resistance. On the contrary, we know that will never happen anyways.
I'm not a Chinese nationalist, I'm a Marxist-Leninist. I have criticized China, I even said I would rather they take a more millitant stance in anti-imperialism rather than continue their present strategy. I think they are more than strong enough to do so in a way that the soviet union wasn't sustainably.
I never once asked "why don't "arabs" do armed uprisings against their oppressors." I'm fully aware of the resistance's stance towards the PA/PLO, and I'm also aware that China was pivotal in the 2024 Beijing Declaration that resulted in the following:

According to the declaration, the factions agreed to achieve "a comprehensive Palestinian national unity that includes all Palestinian factions under the PLO framework, and to commit to the establishment of an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital […] with the help of Egypt, Algeria, China and Russia". They stated that this would take the form of a temporary national unity government. They further "agreed to deploy all efforts to lift the Israeli blockade on Gaza and ensure the unimpeded delivery of humanitarian aid into the enclave".[15]

Side note: Algeria broke this by endorsing the plan.

The declaration also stressed the Palestinian people's right to resist the Israeli occupation in accordance with international law and the United Nations charter and to thwart any attempts to displace Palestinians from their land.

China did not endorse the plan, knows that the resistance will never disarm, and was caught between the PLO's endorsement of the plan and the resistances opposition to it. They abstained, and committed to working to establish Palestinian statehood, including the right to remain armed.

As I said, I would have rather them veto it anyways, but your framing of them as endorsing the plan and making a full pivot into participation in TRUST is what I take issue with. I wish China was doing more, but at the same time I'm not going to pretend they're the same as the US here.

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[–] geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml 0 points 11 months ago (3 children)

There's no difference between abstaining and voting for the resolution. The result is the same.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 11 months ago (2 children)

The result doesn't matter, though. As you already said, the ceasefire isn't real, the US Empire will go through with the genocidal settlement plan no matter what the results were. What matters is what China does materially, which has thus far included uniting Hamas and Fatah, establishing ties between Saudi Arabia and Iran, and presenting an alternative economic bloc to that which relies on Palestinian obliteration. You and I may argue that this is insufficient, but the major difference is that you argue that it's evidence that China supports the genocide, is imperialist, and therefore must be destroyed, giving liberals ammo to oppose China across the board and uplift the west as a more "moral" alternative.

If you don't actually think China should be destroyed, and is just not doing enough when it could be doing more, then you should reframe your critique into saying that it isn't doing enough and that it isn't sufficiently anti-imperialist. Doing so is far more productive and doesn't give the liberals chances to "both sides" anything.

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[–] geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml -1 points 11 months ago (1 child)

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 11 months ago

Gotcha, you picked an unrelated strawman. I already said I would have rather China veto'd, the fact that you either don't care enough to find an accurate twitter post or chose not to read my comment reveals your position. You care less about coming to an understanding with people who largely agree with you and more about arguing online.

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[–] geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml -1 points 11 months ago (7 children)

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 11 months ago (6 children)

I never once told you to read, and you never once explained how the resolution being veto'd would stop it. I already told you that I'd rather China veto'd it, but you care more about arguing online than anything else.

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[–] geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml 0 points 11 months ago (5 children)

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 11 months ago (4 children)

More unrelated strawman arguments.

I said I'd rather China veto'd
I explained that China is meaningfully supporting, like reconciling Fatah and Hamas
I explained that the PRC's non-interventionist foreign policy is different from the soviet's, and that generally I prefer the soviet policy
Your point wasn't that China isn't doing anything, but that it's an imperialist country trading Palestinian lives for favors, with no evidence.

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[–] geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml 1 point 11 months ago (3 children)

same
Meaningfully supporting Israel now by giving it a UN mandate to colonize Palestine. I can also point to the West being the biggest UNRWA donor. Whitewashing deeds don't meaningfully change any of this.
This is imperialism. They support an international colonization force now.
It's beyond obvious that this is a pragmatic move by China to sell out Palestine in exchange for US concessions elsewhere. Russia instantly presented a similar Ukraine draft, and China got Nexperia back. Those are two things that come to mind. If you're saying that China didn't get anything in return for this vote then they wouldn't just be imperialist but also stupid. But certainly no concessions for Palestine.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Cool.
China is not supporting Israel, nor the plan. They've already said they are dedicated to building a Palestinian state and that the current plan doesn't include that, and they also stated that disarmament is unacceptable.
Wrong on two counts. China is not aiding or supporting the colonization, they just haven't taken an interventionist approach to stopping it like we would both likely prefer. Either way, this is not imperialism on China's part. Imperialism is a form of international extraction, the reason the west is imperialist with respect to Palestine is because they need the settler-colonial project as a landlocked aircraft carrier. China doesn't rely on the same international extraction, nor is it one of the active participants in colonizing Palestine. At worst, it's insufficient in its actions.
You keep saying I'm using the same logic as Kamala supporters, but here you are saying "it's beyond obvious" and gesturing to things that don't have clear connections. This kind of baseless bashing is exactly what liberals do.

I'd appreciate if you answered this directly:

Do you believe China is imperialist, or insufficiently anti-imperialist? Which is it?

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[–] geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml 0 points 11 months ago* (1 child)

They voted for the colonization plan haha are you going to tell me Kamala Harris supports a two state solution too?

I will not respond to anything else this is a massive waste of time.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 11 months ago

The DNC was and is actively arming the IDF and is part of the same country planning and pushing for the colonization plan. This is ridiculous. China abstained, restated its continued goal of Palestinian statehood, and has stated that the resistance cannot be disarmed. China isn't the one arming the IDF, nor is it the one pushing the colonial plan. These are entirely different.

You're pulling the same shit as those who said voting for PSL or not voting was a vote for Trump, literally doing liberal gymnastics right now, and accusing me of doing the same.

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