I've been trying Lemmy for a little while and wasn't sure how to feel about it.

Today, I wanted to start blocking the most high-censorship instances until I could find a fully zero-censorship instance and simply block all the ones with censorship. Filter bots, not people.

When I looked into it further, I found out there are no zero-censorship instances, because Lemmy relies on a broken "federation" system where each instance is supposed to be able to fetch posts from other instances, but it's never been finished to reach a fully working state. Lemmy's official docs say you can't even do federation over Tor at all. This means it uses DNS, so it won't actually allow Lemmy instances to fetch posts from each other freely, it just gets blocked instantly and easily, every time the authorities feel like blocking anything.

So you can only ever have the "average joe lemmy" and "average joe reddit" with everything approved by the authorities, and then "tor copies of lemmy" and "tor copies of reddit" where you have free speech but you can only reach other nerds.

People seem to think Lemmy is different because this weird censorship fetish is extremely popular and most of you are happy to see bans happen to certain people, not just bots, so a small Lemmy that censors certain people feels fundamentally different from a big reddit that censors more people. But it's the exact same thing, it's reddit.

When reddit was smaller, you could say basically anything you wanted there, they just wouldn't let it reach the main audience. Then it got too big, and any tiny part of the audience you could reach would be too big, so they won't let you talk at all.

Lemmy is now the small part of reddit where you can say whatever you want, separated from the main audience, until too much growth happens and you have to move again.

It's not actually a solution to reddit. It's not designed to be different, it's designed to match the past today and then match reddit's present tomorrow, while being part of a system that's about the same in past, present, and future.

Last year, this year, and next year, you're posting somewhere it won't be seen by many people, and the system that charges people for ambulance rides is getting another year of ambulance ride revenue, facing no organized resistance. There's no difference here.

Lemmy urgently needs federation between onion service instances and DNS addresses in order to actually do what most users seem to wish it would do: allow discussion outside what the corporate authorities allow, while outgrowing reddit & helping undo the damage social media has done to human communication.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago* (23 children)

    People here mostly don't want to interact in a 4-chan esque 'muh free speech' zone. The policy of most used instances that federate out reflects that.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (20 children)

    4chan is just the end state of what happens when a community has no moderation. I didn't literally mean 4chan.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (18 children)

    You have a habit of taking everything literally. It has very scant moderation then. Still not selling it to me.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (16 children)

    Yes, i think you have a tendency to take words very literally.

    And I wasn't being ironic or joking there.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    Yes, for real

    Dude, the entire thread is disagreeing or supposedly "not understanding" you at this point. This really should be an "Am I out of touch?" moment for you.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (11 children)

    Then, as I said, that’s a perception issue you need to work on. I don’t believe you, though.

    How am I supposed to disprove that I was not being sarcastic?

    So manmade flying machines can’t exist, because in the past that was the majority opinion? And of course, the first popular religion has never changed?

    "Am I out of touch? No, it's everyone else who is wrong"

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Incorrect, and why did you put this after a quote of yet another one of my questions you’ve ignored?

    I think most of your questions are basically baseless attacks rephrased as questions, so I take the liberty to flat-out ignore them.

    Incorrect. I am not alone. You should be feeling a lot of embarrassment about these repetitive attempts to gaslight me.

    You are very much a minority.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (113 children)

    Your point was about people censoring their own speech, ie Pawb.social posters can't say certain things, Lemmy.ml users can't say certain things, etc. That may be true, but Lemmy is federated and accounts are free, I use Lemmy.ml because I won't be censored for being a communist and they presumably use Pawb.social because they have interest in doing so.

    You don't gave to comment on other instances, you can spin your own, but defederating from others makes no sense. You can let others visit and just not remove their comments. By blocking, say, Hexbear, like you already do with a sh.itjust.works account, you are limiting the number of communists you interact with already.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (111 children)

    Instances don't censor based on size, but based on stances. slrpnk.net is biased against Marxism-Leninism, but is a very small instance. Growth won't increase censorship, because we aren't appealing to advertisers. It's a false premise.

    Secondly, I'm not a free-speech absolutist. Misinformation and bigotry should be removed, especially in the modern age where massive propaganda networks push narratives.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (32 children)

    An Instance isn't a subreddit on a major profit-making site that relies heavily on advertisers. The Fediverse just doesn't operate at base as you think.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (30 children)

    Lemmy doesn't have ads, nor are any instances profit making.

    So what? If someone is a nazi, people don't tend to want to talk to you. Who knew.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (28 children)

    The donations go to maintaining the instance. It costs money to keep them up.

    I am making the point that there's a reason "free speech" communities and instances are blacklisted and marginalised. Because people don't want to associate with nazis.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (26 children)

    The point here is that Lemmy instances are not for-profit ventures.

    I really don't get what you even want at this point. Even if a completely uncensored lemmy instances did exist, and was bulletproof against potential government intervention - it would not change how lemmy.world operates.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (14 children)

    Incorrect.

    Nope.

    Are you asking me to help you use a dictionary to check what “effective” means, or are you suggesting modern “law enforcement” is able to catch every criminal before they act (even for crimes they haven’t officially banned yet)?

    Yes, an instance owner could in theory be paid off to moderate a certain way, but it only has so much impact and I would argue, is more obvious in a federated system - so if they get caught, their instance is discredited and abandoned. And people move to other places. In this way, Lemmy is more resilent than Reddit - whereas if Reddit is compromised, the entire site is tainted.

    Incorrect. We can safely assume instances will be shut down increasingly often the more instances there are.

    Yes, instances close down from time-to-time - but that's not because of any government or regulatory pressure. The owners just burn out or lose interest. There's no evidence that instances will start getting shut down by governmental bodies as opposed to just being closed down by the owner.

    Incorrect. It probably has been done, and if not, that doesn’t make my paranoia “despite” it. The paranoia pairs as well with future events as past/present ones.

    It "probably has been done" but you've got no evidence for this.

    I said to try on nostr (where I can’t be banned), not to try again here. Are you truly very very dumb, not just pretending?

    I fail to see how my question was even like that.

    Incorrect. Under the current model, federation requires “approval” of other instance admins, as well as the higher authorities that determine what’s allowed on DNS/IP addresses.

    That's approval to be federated with other instances, not approval to exist. You can spin up your own instance. And most processes of hosting are automated. You don't have to go through a background check to host a lemmy server.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (8 children)

    I've never seen someone with such an outrageous persecution complex. It's genuinely comical. You think you're equivalent to a dissident in Iran because you're getting blowback on a thread you made on a small forum online.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    Dude, you think you’re some sort of dissident because people are disagreeing with you in a forum thread.

    You unironically compared yourself to political dissidents my dude. To the point where you think it would somehow impede your ability to run your own lemmy instance.

    Again, not sure what you mean. Could you screenshot exactly what you're talking about? I only remember talking once in this thread about being a targeted individual who can't safely have a home server, and that didn't really have these parts you're talking about.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    You think people disagreeing with you in a forum means you can't safely have a home server instance. That is utterly pathetic. And you unironically did compare your supposed victimisation here with that of political dissidents.

    Me: "People targeting you (replying to you) in this thread isn’t the same thing as the state or some other authority somehow targeting you."

    You: "Incorrect. The authorities are just people."

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Incorrect.

    So how are you "targeted" in this thread, and how are you "targeted" in such a way that it makes it so you can't safely have a home server instance?

    Again, this is a link, not a screenshot. You keep wasting time posting links I keep telling you I’m not clicking.

    So what? Is the link a lie? The link is to your post. https://i.imgur.com/USWVK8b.png

    These are quotes prefaced with “me:” and “you:” suggesting you’re just recapping part of the conversation again. Why? Would this be worth my time to read?

    It's the relevant component where you larped as a martyr.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    And the type of targeting that makes it so I can’t safely have a home server is more like how I keep facing serious accusations of crimes I haven’t committed, false arrests, accusations of pedophilia, etc.

    You have not been accused of being a pedophile. You have been "accused" of saying that CSAM should be allowed to be hosted online (because you said it).

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (76 children)

    The reason size had an impact on Reddit, advertisers, does not exist on Lemmy nor is there a single large umbrella.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (74 children)

    They had cheaper advertisers. Once Reddit reached scale, it needed to take a more active stance.

    Why would size have anything to do with anything otherwise?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (72 children)

    I don't see it as connected, nor do I see how size on Lemmy correlates to strength of moderation. As for ambulance rides and the predatory healthcare system, we need to abolish capitalism and move onto socialism.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (70 children)

    I don't see what you're getting at, here. Are you implying that once Lemmy overtakes Reddit, it will be censored by the government if TOR isn't implemented? First, it's not known if Lemmy would overtake Reddit, secondly TOR isn't implemented yet, but it's also not a problem yet. All of this just means socialism is necessary, rather than trying to worry about a problem that just doesn't exist yet.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (37 children)

    Lemmy is not "censored by the authorities today." Secondly, Lemmy already does what it needs to do, present an alternative to Reddit that is FOSS for those who want it. The goal isn't to compete with Reddit, but largely to create a space where communists can't be censored, and for now Lemmy does its job well.

    Ambulance rides for free in the US Empire requires socialism, at this point. Rather than complain about Lemmy, join an org and try to do that.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (33 children)

    Lemmy isn't censored by the authorities today. You gave an example of how they could be, but not how they are.

    Secondly, no, absolutely join an org. That's far more useful than what you're doing right now.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (31 children)

    Are you referring to moderators and admins as "the authorities?" I already acknowledged that moderation exists, but the idea of the government censoring Lemmy is baseless.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (29 children)

    Moderation exists, sure. I don't agree with creating unmoderated spaces, they almost always end up as far-right echo chambers where people that can't say slurs in other places end up.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (27 children)

    I've been honest from the outset. The fact that I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm lying. I merely responded to what you were saying, as is how these types of forums work.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (25 children)

    Can't tell what you said, because Lemmy.ml censors slurs. I think it would be pretty clear that people that want to say slurs are usually far-right. I never once lied.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (23 children)

    It isn't at all a lie. Us disagreeing doesn't make me a liar, nor does it mean I made a mistake. I've been honest and good-faith, and you've been malding this entire thread.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    I didn't make a mistake, and I didn't lie. I disagree with you, that doesn't mean I'm gaslighting you.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    I wasn't wrong, there's nothing to admit. You can continue to insult my character and claim I'm trying to gaslight you, but thay isn't the case.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    I'm being entirely honest and good-faith, bad-faith is calling me right-wing. I'm a communist. When I say slurs are common in the far-right, I mean exactly that, slurs are common in the far-right.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    What on Earth do you mean by "making communism happen?" I do think misinformation and bigotry should be censored, this isn't at all incompatible with communism. I do org work, that's what communists do.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    No.

    I don't think we should "redefine slurs." Slurs are slurs.

    I don't want to redefine right-wing to mean people who use slurs. I stated that slur-usage is most common among the far-right.

    I've been honest this entire time, and you've been picking fights and dismissing anyone's input by saying that you didn't ask for it. This kind of behavior would be considered wrecker behavior, and would be corrected if you were actually in a competent org.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    No, your use of slurs isn't something I've redefined, nor did I try to redefine right-wing as "using slurs." I said use of slurs is most common among the far-right, not that that is definitional to being right-wing.

    You repeat yourself because you're wrong.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (28 children)

    If by “the bulk of the fediverse” you meant “all users except the first person who started the first one,” then you are wrong both about what “the bulk of” means (a majority, but not one as extreme as all but one of billions of people) and what would happen with a zero-censorship Lemmy network (the bulk of people would block it, but not your all-but-one version of “the bulk")

    No, I mean the people who use the Fediverse now. I suppose I mean the audience and admins of Lemmy, Piefed and Mbin.

    If by “the bulk of the fediverse” you meant “the bulk of the fediverse” then you must have meant something different from “completely mute” when you said “completely mute.” Maybe you meant “censored enough to please me, but still leave me feeling anxious enough to feel the need to exaggerate”

    See what I mean about you taking words literally?

    The dictionary is more than enough shared ground for me. My simple way of defining “authorities” would be “those who are given authority,” which I’m sure is not in conflict with the dictionary.

    I have not been "given authority". I am no more an "authority" on the fediverse than you. The instance owners and admins have actual authority, and it derives from their ability and willingness to run these servers. If I don't like how a server is run, I can take my interest elsewhere. That's it. I have no actual regulatory power.

    So you’re saying there’s a big network of instances with child porn, terrorism plots, and piracy, but the authorities haven’t decided yet to crack down?

    No, I am saying that those are the only scenarios in which they might intervene.

    Or you’re saying you’ve used Wonder Woman’s rope on every server admin to get the true answer why they don’t run Lemmy instances that allow child porn, terrorism plots, and piracy, and not a single one of them said “it would get blocked,” and when you asked “so you think it wouldn’t get blocked?” they were all like “maybe it wouldn’t, I have other reasons for not trying it”

    Well, I suspect its both. If I was an instance owners I both would want to block CSAM, and also would be legally obliged to. I assume you don't oppose the removal of CSAM and terrorist content?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (24 children)

    Then "authority" is a word of no value or utility by your logic. Indeed, its impossible to not have authority by your logic. Everyone has it.

    But the only authority actual of any instance on the Fediverse are the instance owners who fund the instance, maintain it, and can terminate the instance if they see fit.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    I didn’t ask if you asked. Why waste time typing that?

    It wasn't a waste of time, my words matter.

    You keep crying about me abusing you.

    Incorrect. Perhaps you have "crying" confused with "replying."

    You can’t be serious.

    I think I'm kinda good at being serious, actually.

    You really can’t be serious.

    Repeating it doesn't make me agree.

    You can’t trace back 1 post to see what I was referring to there in the source?

    What do you mean?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    It wasn’t a waste of time, my words matter.

    Didn't ask. Why waste time?

    Incorrect. Perhaps you have “crying” confused with “replying.”

    Are you of the opinion that when I said "crying" there I literally thought you were in tears at your keyboard?

    What do you mean?

    You mentioned Hamas.ps first. The timeline shows this. Here is the link. You genuinely forgot that was what I posted to you?

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Didn’t ask.

    Didn't ask if you asked.

    Why waste time?

    You tell me, you're the one that keeps doing it.

    Are you of the opinion that when I said “crying” there I literally thought you were in tears at your keyboard?

    Nope. Are you still pretending my straightforwardness makes it hard to believe I can understand euphemisms? (Rhetorical question, obviously you are)

    You mentioned Hamas.ps first. The timeline shows this. Here is the link.

    Is there a point here?

    You genuinely forgot that was what I posted to you?

    Forgot what?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago*

    Nope. Are you still pretending my straightforwardness makes it hard to believe I can understand euphemisms? (Rhetorical question, obviously you are)

    I neither view you as straight-forward, nor able to understand euphemisms.

    You mentioned Hamas.ps first. The timeline shows this. Here is the link.

    Is there a point here?

    Yes, you claimed I bought up Hamas.ps first. I did not. You did. The evidence backs that up.

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