I've been trying Lemmy for a little while and wasn't sure how to feel about it.

Today, I wanted to start blocking the most high-censorship instances until I could find a fully zero-censorship instance and simply block all the ones with censorship. Filter bots, not people.

When I looked into it further, I found out there are no zero-censorship instances, because Lemmy relies on a broken "federation" system where each instance is supposed to be able to fetch posts from other instances, but it's never been finished to reach a fully working state. Lemmy's official docs say you can't even do federation over Tor at all. This means it uses DNS, so it won't actually allow Lemmy instances to fetch posts from each other freely, it just gets blocked instantly and easily, every time the authorities feel like blocking anything.

So you can only ever have the "average joe lemmy" and "average joe reddit" with everything approved by the authorities, and then "tor copies of lemmy" and "tor copies of reddit" where you have free speech but you can only reach other nerds.

People seem to think Lemmy is different because this weird censorship fetish is extremely popular and most of you are happy to see bans happen to certain people, not just bots, so a small Lemmy that censors certain people feels fundamentally different from a big reddit that censors more people. But it's the exact same thing, it's reddit.

When reddit was smaller, you could say basically anything you wanted there, they just wouldn't let it reach the main audience. Then it got too big, and any tiny part of the audience you could reach would be too big, so they won't let you talk at all.

Lemmy is now the small part of reddit where you can say whatever you want, separated from the main audience, until too much growth happens and you have to move again.

It's not actually a solution to reddit. It's not designed to be different, it's designed to match the past today and then match reddit's present tomorrow, while being part of a system that's about the same in past, present, and future.

Last year, this year, and next year, you're posting somewhere it won't be seen by many people, and the system that charges people for ambulance rides is getting another year of ambulance ride revenue, facing no organized resistance. There's no difference here.

Lemmy urgently needs federation between onion service instances and DNS addresses in order to actually do what most users seem to wish it would do: allow discussion outside what the corporate authorities allow, while outgrowing reddit & helping undo the damage social media has done to human communication.

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[–] 15 points 1 year ago (267 children)

So you want to censor 99% of speech, leaving only people who agree with you on only hearing speech from people that post in your mkni community? I feel like that's counter-productive.

Sometimes people say Lemmy.ml is "high censorship," but I've never been censored here. People sort themselves into instances that generally align with what they want to post and comment, it isn't that there are censorship regimes going on.

As for Lemmy "failing," it already does what it needs to do, it provides a good platform. Reddit went downhill because of the profit motive, Lemmy doesn't have that.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (27 children)

    Sounds like the solution is for you to just start your own instance, create your own 'free speech zone' communities, and engage in a 'censorship-free' policy there. Personally, I prefer to stay as far away from instances hosting, for example, CSAM and unbridled hate-speech as I can, and the current federation system handles that quite well.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (35 children)

    If 99% of speech comes from people who are against free speech, I want to let 99% of people censor themselves by posting in censored communities while I stay in a free speech zone.~

    There are some instances that could be described as 'free speech zones'. It's just they're usually heavily defederated and so you'll have to find them.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (32 children)

    You mean over TOR, according to your OP

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (30 children)

    Currently federation works now. You just don't like how it works, and you're paranoid that the authorities will intervene and dictate to Lemmy instances what they should do.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (28 children)

    There's no evidence of any restriction by the authorities.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (26 children)

    I am not a member of a government or regulatory body with powers of enforcement. I am just "some guy" here with opinions.

    You considered that the admins of lemmy instances would implement rules regardless of what the audience thinks?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (22 children)

    Nope, I am not using the word “authority” in an idiosyncratic way. The way I am using it is how it is used.

    Not in common parlance, and not in this context. It usually refers to people in positions of actual power. Stop being so sensitive. I find it hard to believe you could ever cope on a truly free speech instance.

    Lemmy doesn't blacklist these instances. Specific lemmy instances that most people know and use blacklist them.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago* (23 children)

    People here mostly don't want to interact in a 4-chan esque 'muh free speech' zone. The policy of most used instances that federate out reflects that.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (20 children)

    4chan is just the end state of what happens when a community has no moderation. I didn't literally mean 4chan.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (18 children)

    You have a habit of taking everything literally. It has very scant moderation then. Still not selling it to me.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (16 children)

    Yes, i think you have a tendency to take words very literally.

    And I wasn't being ironic or joking there.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    Yes, for real

    Dude, the entire thread is disagreeing or supposedly "not understanding" you at this point. This really should be an "Am I out of touch?" moment for you.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Incorrect, and why did you put this after a quote of yet another one of my questions you’ve ignored?

    I think most of your questions are basically baseless attacks rephrased as questions, so I take the liberty to flat-out ignore them.

    Incorrect. I am not alone. You should be feeling a lot of embarrassment about these repetitive attempts to gaslight me.

    You are very much a minority.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago* (17 children)

    What you just said is my point, minus the part where I said users sort themselves into instances already so that they don't get censored from what they want to say. OP's claiming that people control their speech on their own instances, therefore justifying OP defederating from this "controlled speech," but my speech and presumably your speech isn't controlled on our respective instances because they presumably align roughly with what we already want to say.

    I'm well aware that Lemmy.ml removes comments and posts bashing communism, or that have bigotry in them, etc. Lemmy.world removes comments critical of the DNC, and has some Zionist mods. Users naturally sort themselves into whichever one won't censor what they want to say to begin with, we aren't all forced under one banner like Reddit, because of federation.

    Make sense?

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (16 children)

    Maybe my lack of understanding stems from a misunderstanding of OP's post... which to be fair, I found fairly difficult to parse, and based on their responses to your and other posters' replies, I strongly suspect that's a 'them' problem, not a 'me' problem, as it seems everyone else is having an equally hard time understanding what they're actually trying to say.

    I just want to be clear that it is a lack of understanding and not an attempt to be antagonistic. I have no inherent problem with you; we have strongly differing views on a number of important topics, but we seem to be able to co-exist on Lemmy (and even post in the same communities) just fine, which... seems to be a counter-point to OP's post? But maybe I'm just still misinterpreting what that point actually is.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (14 children)

    That's fair! Yea, from how I have interacted with OP, it seems they want Lemmy to overtake Reddit in numbers, have no moderation outside of CSAM or something, and have TOR integration so governments can't censor it, and that they believe this is the key to achieving socialism (I think?). I think this person just has very specific desires and sees it as a problem for everyone that they aren't met.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (32 children)

    An Instance isn't a subreddit on a major profit-making site that relies heavily on advertisers. The Fediverse just doesn't operate at base as you think.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (30 children)

    Lemmy doesn't have ads, nor are any instances profit making.

    So what? If someone is a nazi, people don't tend to want to talk to you. Who knew.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (76 children)

    The reason size had an impact on Reddit, advertisers, does not exist on Lemmy nor is there a single large umbrella.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (74 children)

    They had cheaper advertisers. Once Reddit reached scale, it needed to take a more active stance.

    Why would size have anything to do with anything otherwise?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (72 children)

    I don't see it as connected, nor do I see how size on Lemmy correlates to strength of moderation. As for ambulance rides and the predatory healthcare system, we need to abolish capitalism and move onto socialism.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (70 children)

    I don't see what you're getting at, here. Are you implying that once Lemmy overtakes Reddit, it will be censored by the government if TOR isn't implemented? First, it's not known if Lemmy would overtake Reddit, secondly TOR isn't implemented yet, but it's also not a problem yet. All of this just means socialism is necessary, rather than trying to worry about a problem that just doesn't exist yet.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (37 children)

    Lemmy is not "censored by the authorities today." Secondly, Lemmy already does what it needs to do, present an alternative to Reddit that is FOSS for those who want it. The goal isn't to compete with Reddit, but largely to create a space where communists can't be censored, and for now Lemmy does its job well.

    Ambulance rides for free in the US Empire requires socialism, at this point. Rather than complain about Lemmy, join an org and try to do that.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (33 children)

    Lemmy isn't censored by the authorities today. You gave an example of how they could be, but not how they are.

    Secondly, no, absolutely join an org. That's far more useful than what you're doing right now.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (31 children)

    Are you referring to moderators and admins as "the authorities?" I already acknowledged that moderation exists, but the idea of the government censoring Lemmy is baseless.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (29 children)

    Moderation exists, sure. I don't agree with creating unmoderated spaces, they almost always end up as far-right echo chambers where people that can't say slurs in other places end up.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (27 children)

    I've been honest from the outset. The fact that I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm lying. I merely responded to what you were saying, as is how these types of forums work.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (23 children)

    It isn't at all a lie. Us disagreeing doesn't make me a liar, nor does it mean I made a mistake. I've been honest and good-faith, and you've been malding this entire thread.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    I didn't make a mistake, and I didn't lie. I disagree with you, that doesn't mean I'm gaslighting you.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    I wasn't wrong, there's nothing to admit. You can continue to insult my character and claim I'm trying to gaslight you, but thay isn't the case.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    I'm being entirely honest and good-faith, bad-faith is calling me right-wing. I'm a communist. When I say slurs are common in the far-right, I mean exactly that, slurs are common in the far-right.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    What on Earth do you mean by "making communism happen?" I do think misinformation and bigotry should be censored, this isn't at all incompatible with communism. I do org work, that's what communists do.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    No.

    I don't think we should "redefine slurs." Slurs are slurs.

    I don't want to redefine right-wing to mean people who use slurs. I stated that slur-usage is most common among the far-right.

    I've been honest this entire time, and you've been picking fights and dismissing anyone's input by saying that you didn't ask for it. This kind of behavior would be considered wrecker behavior, and would be corrected if you were actually in a competent org.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (28 children)

    At the same time, Lemmy.ml doesn't block Hexbear.net or Lemmygrad.ml, so it's less censored than sh.itjust.works. If that isn't acceptable, spin up your own instance.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (26 children)

    They aren't blocking tor federation, they just haven't added it. Tor federation is something they would have to explicitly add support for, since Tor only works over... Tor.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (24 children)

    You need to connect to the tor binary to make .onions work. It doesn't just work like any other uri.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (22 children)

    Also, why are you trying to make it sound like this is a universal thing that applies to all apps?

    Because it is. This is how Tor works. Do you not understand how Tor works?

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (18 children)

    I'm not lying. I am stating the facts.

    Tor works for apps that don’t integrate it (or its “binary”)

    You run the tor binary and connect to it over socks5 and make connections to places (onion or not) through that socks5. If the app doesn't support socks5 you need to bodge it and redirect connections from the app into socks5 through some other means.

    (At least that is the old way, with arti things are changing, but it's still in development, and when we are talking about onion services the old tor binary is still necessary)

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (16 children)

    You are lying about your previous lies, and then stating unrelated facts to confuse people.

    I am not.

    “you run the tor binary” doesn’t mean “the app runs the tor binary” it means you, the user on the system

    I never meant that the app has to, the user can too.

    Lemmy doesn’t need Tor built-in to use Tor

    No, but then the individual lemmy instances would have to bodge tor support, as I have been trying to say. And since they very likely don't, tor based federation wouldn't work with those instances.

    their explanation in this comment does match that reality

    It does.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (14 children)

    Go add Tor support, it's a better use of your time, https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy

    Or add to the docs how each individual instance can connect over Tor.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    "Lmao, I'm too important to work on this thing I want! Everyone else should do it for me!

    Do it! Do it NOW!"

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