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As of September 2025, the State of Palestine is recognized as a sovereign state by 156 of the 193 member states of the United Nations (UN), or approximately 80% of all UN members. (sh.itjust.works)
submitted 1 year ago by to c/map_enthusiasts@sopuli.xyz
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[+] -14 points 1 year ago (23 children)

Recognizing a state whose legitimate elected government launched a literal pogrom just a couple of years back. What a thing you're all celebrating.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Historical "pogroms" were by a dominant majority population against an oppressed minority population. So the term "pogrom" is a bad fit for anything that Palestinians do, or have ever done, or might do in the future, to Israeli Jews.

    The other way round (settler violence) though? I don't use the term for that myself, but I don't think it is a wrong term for it.

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  • [–] -4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Pogrom (a Yiddish word) in the proper sense means against this particular ethnic group - so correct term. But okay, by the generic definition, that's a fair argument.

    Personally I don't see humanity as dominators and dominated, but rather in terms of individuals. The intentions of Hamas against individual Israelis are very clear from their words and deeds. All that they lack is the means. That's why I will not be celebrating statehood for a nation run (partly) by this group.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago*

    Says they see humanity as individuals

    Groups all Gazans as Hamas supporters

    Yeah, ok buddy. Great individualizing there. Because individual Palestinians who have never voted for Hamas deserve to get bombed.

    Like in your own words you showed you don't believe Palestinians as part of humanity.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

    Aside from how plenty of other governments are recognised while committing horrific acts, this is recognition of Palestine, not Gaza. Even before the displacement and deaths of the last two years, most of Palestine's population was in the West Bank, and it is not run by Hamas. Hamas won the last election, but it did not get a majority and has not been in government for most Palestinians for almost 20 years

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    plenty of other governments are recognised while committing horrific acts

    Citation needed. I can't think of anything comparable, certainly not since the UN's founding.

    this is recognition of Palestine, not Gaza

    Fair point.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I'll go with a slightly older example so that it has more settled scholarship: Indonesia during the East Timor genocide. I don't think anyone stopped recognising Indonesia despite it invading and occupying what is now Timor-Leste, killing tens to hundreds of thousands of a population smaller than Gaza's, and conducting mass-scale sexual violence

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    stopped recognising

    Of course they didn't. But this is about an initial recognition. This one feels unseemly to me personally.

    Not saying it's wrong in principle. It certainly feels like a "sympathy recognition", much like Kosovo and indeed Timor Leste itself. But in those cases the putative independent states were not run (even partly) by religious extremists with overtly genocidal intentions.

    Still, I will agree that things are not black and white.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    legitimate elected government

    That is certainly discussable lmao

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (12 children)

    The people of Gaza voted for Hamas, an overtly terrorist group with a genocidal manifesto, as their elected government back in 20072006. Naturally that was their last election.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    And the people of North Korea, China, Russia etc etc vote for their government regularly.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (9 children)

    North Korea does not hold elections. China does not hold elections outside its ruling Communist Party. Russia holds occasional sham elections with stooge candidates.

    The Palestinian election involved numerous parties and candidates, including leftist and liberals, and the Hamas victory was generally recognized as fair.

    Clearly you have very little idea about this whole subject. I'd guess like most others here.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    North Korea absolutely holds elections and they can even boast with having 100% voting participation. Their last election was 2019. And so does China..

    Anyway, you can't possible argue that Hamas is the legally elected government in Gaza after abolishing all other political parties and not holding an election for 20 years. Maybe they once was, but they're no longer and not since a long time.

    You obviously have even a less idea about this whole subject.

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  • [–] -4 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Given that you've clearly just looked these things up to justify yourself post-hoc, you should now know that there's no comparison with sham plebiscites in totalitarian countries (China holds proper-ish elections, at local level only, and only for vetted Communist Party candidates).

    My point stands. The people of Gaza chose Hamas, a genocidal terrorist group, in a free and fair election. That doesn't justify what's happening to them today, but it's a fact.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (6 children)

    Given that you’ve clearly just looked these things up

    Even if I did, it is true, is it not? It is not that hard to admit when you are faulty. You can do it, I believe in you!

    No, your point is wrong and dumb. You proclaim Hamas to be the legally elected government which they maybe was in 2006, but as I said, that was almost 20 years go and after abolishing all political opposition. Now Hamas holds (held lmao) the same grip over Gaza as any other authoritarian regime does. And if you are still going to argue that this makes them the legal elected leaders, than China, Russia, Belarus, North Korea and whatever other state you want also has legally elected leaders and your arguing against their elections makes no sense.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Admit that I've got what wrong? I've only ever stated established facts. Many dictatorships are collapsed democracies. Russians also chose to abandon their democracy, having voted too many times for Putin.

    Sure, the current situation is particularly unfair on the (very many) Gazans who were too young to vote 19 years ago. I'm sure we can agree on that.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    I’ve only ever stated established facts. North Korea does not hold elections. China does not hold elections outside its ruling Communist Party.

    Although, China is a one-party state so you at least got that part right. On the other hand

    totalitarian countries (China holds proper-ish elections[...])

    China is not a totalitarian country (yet at least), so that is wrong..

    Anyway, the current situation is particularly unfair to all Gazans who aren't combatants, so that we can agree on. I think it is clear to everyone else that Hamas is not the legal government in Gaza, and that is obviously nothing I can force you to change your mind about, but I, with friendliness, suggest you think about why you differ in reasoning between Hamas and other authoritarian regimes.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    This seems to be your personal definition of "totalitarian". From what I understand of the consensus of actual political scientists, North Korea has been totalitarian for decades and Russia and China both now pass the bar too (since the Ukraine invasion and Xi's tech authoritarian ramp-up, respectively).

    with friendliness, suggest you think about

    Difficult to finish a sentence with condescension level at this pitch.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    I assure you it is not. North Korea is definitely totalitarian but neither Russia nor China is. They're on their way to be, but aren't. Especially Russia was a very long way from being totalitarian until, as you said, the invasion of Ukraine.

    I'm sorry, it was not meant to be condescending. I just wanted to point out that you held two different standards between different authoritarian regimes and that you might want to figure out why to come to a better conclusion, my bad.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago*

    What recognizing a state that would be ruled by the palestinian autority has anything to do with hamas. Should i also remind you that israel army was created by terrorist groups like Hagana and lehi etc?

    Israel also ethrnically cleansing palestinians twice before 7 of october and is doing a third one. There is aldo regular progrom of palestinians in the west bank

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    Was it a pogrom when Israel killed hundreds of their own civilians on Oct.7? Or only when the Big Scary Arab does it?

    On 5 December 2023, Israeli hostages released by Hamas met with Benjamin Netanyahu's war cabinet and claimed that, during the 7 October Hamas attack on Israel they were deliberately attacked by Israeli helicopters on their way into Gaza, and were shelled constantly by the Israeli military while they were there.[73]

    Read more about use of the "Hannibal Directive" on Oct. 7 here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive#Gaza_war

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