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[–] 26 points 5 months ago (35 children)

I was having a chat with a friend recently about the cost of living in the UK. I mentioned one issue is the wealth inequality and billionaires are the problem.

"If we do a wealth tax they'll leave!"

Sent this link https://equalitytrust.org.uk/evidence-base/billionaire-britain-2025/ to explain how a large proportion of billionaires just extract wealth.

Not entirely sure they were convinced. They have the mentality that billionaires create jobs for everyone and are super hard workers that worked their way up.

I don't want to just sit back and call people who look up to billionaires idiots. I want to be able to have strong compelling points to make them change their mind.

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  • [+] -26 points 5 months ago (34 children)

    If you do a wealth tax, they would absolutely leave.

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  • [–] 20 points 5 months ago

    And then what? If they want to take their wealth with them they'd need to sell up, so the job creation would remain, the assets would remain, possibly the currency would be slightly weaker, and so importa would be slightly more expensive, which would encourage the local economy... What is the awful outcomes you're imagining from the ultra rich leaving?

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  • [–] 15 points 5 months ago (17 children)
  • [+] -6 points 5 months ago (16 children)
  • [–] 8 points 5 months ago (15 children)

    They are a menace to society and there existence is an embarrassment.

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  • [–] -4 points 5 months ago (14 children)

    Does kicking them out of the country cause them to cease to exist?

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  • [–] 11 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    If everyone does it, yeah. Kinda.

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Agreed. Capitalism cannot be brought down without global unity.

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago (9 children)

    I don't want them here, ideally they would pay a crap ton of taxes or rot in a cell, and stop buying out the legal systems.

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  • [–] 0 points 5 months ago (8 children)

    Agreed but unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago (7 children)

    Yes, so leaving or paying taxes is a win. They can wreck and topple a country that I'm not stuck surviving in.

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  • [–] 0 points 5 months ago (6 children)

    How is kicking them out a win?

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago* (4 children)

    Well, think about what "wealth" is. Their wealth isn't a big pile of money in the living room that they swim in, it's in an international web of banks that all do business together, and all profit off of this wealth themselves. This is a very simple explanation and it's much more complex than that, I'd recommend the Panama and Pandora Papers as a primer.

    You're not going to get to seize anything but a small fraction in assets that they can't quickly liquidate. The moment you do seize those assets, every one else will move their wealth out of your country, also, for fear of losing their own bank accounts. The more you seize assets, the more assets will flee your country, even small investors will abandon you.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (3 children)

    Ok, that really doesn’t answer the question, but so what? Let them all flee, who cares? Theres absolutely zero real loss at this point. Not like any of that hoarded wealth is currently accessible to the country/community they live in anyway. That’s sort of the point. It’s a black hole either way, that money isn't coming out of their pockets if they don't want it to, so why allow them to keep getting more at the expense of 99% of the population, many of whom can’t even properly support themselves because all the profits end up in a few pockets, and workers get peanuts.

    They don't contribute anything if they can help it, they just take everything they can at the expense of literally everyone else, so why would it be bad if they left? If all the takers left, because they couldn't just take everything from everyone else anymore, how is that in any way bad for the country they flee? Or the people left behind who actually do contribute their fair share? It wouldn’t even take very long for things to readjust, because they provide next to nothing we can’t live without, and spreading the wealth out means more in taxes.

    If the selfish rich assholes who don't want to give anything back abandon in droves, it opens the field for smaller business and local investment, or investment from people who aren't so selfish as to see paying a fair portion in taxes as an insufferable barrier. Thats a good thing you are trying to present as a bad thing. Nobody actually needs obscenely rich people to invest in stuff, thats just a ridiculous lie they want us to believe. Good ideas and good businesses can find other avenues, like organic growth or co-op models of mutual investment for mutual profit. Frankly we need far far fewer things owned or controlled by the same few obscenely rich people who are ruining everything everywhere for only their own benefit.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

    So what? So you lose all of your investors, from billionaires to small investors of pensions, and everyone in between.

    That's a massive part of any economy... and you won't get any more money from any of them, all will invest elsewhere where their money won't be seized.

    This would be very, very bad for your economy for many years (at least).

    That's so what. Don't get me wrong, this would be hilarious and you should do it as soon as possible.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (1 child)

    Why would small investors pull out? They wouldn't be impacted by this stuff in any meaningful way.

    Thats just an absurd slippery slope argument. It just doesn't follow reality at all, but let’s assume it did, and that you are right.

    So you lose out on selfish people who want to be the takers, but aren't yet.. you lose out on them investing in crap that only or largely benefits them, because anyone who isn't just out for themselves would not be deterred by this sort of thing. So what? Where’s the loss here? You miss out on making more billionaires. Oh no.

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  • [+] 8 points 5 months ago* (3 children)
  • [–] -3 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    I want a source that says that billionaires would remain in countries even when taxes rise.

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  • [+] 10 points 5 months ago (2 children)
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  • [–] 8 points 5 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] -5 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    You can't tax them at all if they leave. Forget wealth tax, you won't be getting any taxes.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    They can't leave when their businesses, properties, assets, and income are derived from your country. Much of it isn't easily movable, if at all. Most of a billionaire's wealth isn't in cold hard capital cash, it's in a mixture of assets and yearly income from said assets.

    They can choose to leave, and live wherever they'd like to live. But their place of residence, if legislated properly, would have no bearing on wealth taxes instituted at the asset or income level. If we chose to tax them regardless of being domicile or not: it is a legislative choice.

    It would have no bearing on whether we can still legally and feasibly tax the fuck out of them.

    What you're saying is disinformation, friend. It serves the wealth class well when it's spread around. But if you stop and think about it as an idea for a second it quickly falls apart.

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  • [–] 0 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Nope. Most of a billionaire's wealth is in the form of stocks. This is true of any billionaire.

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    Which is good, as they would then not be extracting wealth from where they left and money can once again circulate how it should.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (2 children)

    Lol billionaires extract wealth from every single nation.

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  • [–] 34 points 5 months ago (6 children)

    Because they hope to become one of them

    Or at least an "Uncle Tom" who will receive preferential treatment

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  • [–] 12 points 5 months ago* (5 children)

    I’ve heard this a lot. I cannot think of anyone who actually thinks they have a shot at being a billionaire. Maybe a shot at winning the lottery, which is still crazy, but the taxes are predetermined for that so it’s not like they’re going to increase on a winner after they’ve won and already paid. There’s always the steady drumbeat of “taxes are evil” from everyone living in a fantasyland that modern civilized life will continue without them.

    IMO it’s more of a fear thing. We’ve been told they’re the “job creators” or whatever (even Musk has only created 100k jobs out of 163 million jobs despite being the richest person in the country). You’re already getting their “preferential treatment” and people are afraid they’ll withdraw their favor, as meager as it is, despite the damage they do to everything else.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago

    Nah, the aspiration isn't so much that people think they could be billionaires, merely that anyone could be. It creates a social bond between the working class and billionaires, it dissolves the identity divide for the working class. Working class people think "they're hard workers just like me," while billionaires use their identification as working class to selectively absolve themselves of the responsibility they have.

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  • [–] 9 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    Americans are stupid, hateful and willing to shit all over each other if they think they will personally benefit, even if know it is only temporary

    Selfishness is baked into what passes for culture in that backwards dump

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Its baked into and directly caused by the ethos of rugged independence. It's in the roots.

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  • [–] 0 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    I agree completely

    That, and the fact that cruelty is celebrated

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    Like with most things, it's the minority that messes it up for everyone. In this case there are a large minority that is either indifferent to or actually revels in the suffering of others. They seem to mostly be republican. For them, the cruelty is the point, or else they're selfish and indifferent, which I believe is indistinguishable.

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  • [–] 16 points 5 months ago*
    [–] 14 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Some people have the mindset - "If we take money away from billionaires now, then I'll have less money when I become a billionaire in the future!"

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  • [–] 10 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Don't hate them for it, because they never made a conscious decision to do it. It may be incredibly frustrating that some people are sabotaging everyone else like this, but it's not really their fault. They've simply been raised in a rotten society and brainwashed so hard their brains are literally fried.

    Those of us who happened to avoid a similar fate are not necessarily better. Probably just lucky.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago

    Also, you did not avoid a similar fate. The way in which you are a bootlicker is probably invisible to you, and it shows itself during different contexts. There is no way in Hell everyone in your environment was touched by this but you and you alone came away unscathed. Hubris.

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  • [–] 9 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    There are some people who are just wired to submit, and there are a lot more of them than you would think. I don’t know how to explain it, but I know some otherwise really awesome people, smart in most ways, but happily submit themselves to authority time and time again; despite it burning them over and over.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    I think I'm more productive when I have someone else doing the executive thinking and "just" assigning me "simple" tasks.

    But, I can still recognize Rentiers as bad for the economy in specific and society in general.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    That really interesting, honestly. I’m the kind who likes to break down task, figure out things, and I get really resentful when I’m given simple tasks without the context to understand them.

    I don’t think what you are describing is what I mean though. I totally get having things broken down and simplified, especially in the context of productivity. That just seems like you understand yourself and workflow.

    I’m taking more about an authoritarian mindset in values. I can tell based on the rest of your reply that you haven’t outsourced your judgement :)

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah, I guess isn't not really about simple vs. complex for me, I don't mind having to research, break down, or even delegate; but I want to clear goal. "Improve the login flow" is a task I hate, and probably won't do well or fast. "Allow Yubikey as an alternative to Google Authenticator for our 2FA" is something I can knock out, even if I'm totally new to the code base (and I've not yet ever used the Google Authenticator API or a Yubikey).

    I know metrics make for poor goals (Goodhart's Law) but I like a task that is metric-driven. I do tend to be careful to not be overly fixated on the metric and rather the improvement it's meant to reflect.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    Gotcha. Yeah, you and me both then, I feel exactly the same way. “Improved login” is such an undefined and wide space to begin with. Something like that is what a low executive function brain would ask for.

    I’d say, you operate at a higher level, sounds to me like you are very good at executive level thinking. You see the problem space for what it is, and undefined is an awful place to be, since there is so many avenues that would fulfill the “request”. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had to walk people through how to provide useful requirements :)

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  • [+] 8 points 5 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago

    It is, it’s a weird mental wall that you hit time and time again with these people.

    Keep asking the why, and eventually they shut down. Once they get to where they need to think critically you can just see the brain turn off behind their eyes. It’s baffling.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    Some people are more predisposed to value order and stability, which I get it. Life is ultimately rudderless and has no direction. It brings an existential dread for many to think that we are all ultimately free individuals. As Albert Camus puts it: we are condemned to be free. Some people have a stronger fleeting and listless feeling, and fear of the unknown-- but it is the endless possibilities of choices leading to the unknown results that they actually dread. So, I think some people want assurances; and they think they could get it from following an authority figure. This stems from our pre-historic evolutionary past that if you are not a leader type and either/or not part of a group, it could reduce your chances of survival.

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago

    I think in some cases, daddy issues play a part in it. I know a few guys who clearly found a substitute for their lacklustre fathers in strongman figures, be they CEOs or grifters. Having a figure like this to fall into line with does seem to make them feel more secure in themselves.

    I don't know a huge amount of those, but I do know a lot of men who had solid fathers who were there for them and listened as much as they spoke. They were attentive, caring and solid parents. None of those kids grew up to feel personally threatened when their favourite billionaire, CEO or social media grifter is critiqued or shown for what they are.

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago

    I think billionaires and corporations spend good money to have people comment favorably about them. Eventually, via osmosis, those opinions percolate into some of the general public and they start spewing the same lines

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago

    alot of propaganda, especially how movies and shows glorify being rich, plus als in irl, its a plus if worship white ones.

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    I'm here to discuss the original image. Is Jesus shooting America at a sinner? Who is the baby?

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  • [–] 11 points 5 months ago (6 children)

    Brainwashed, mentally ill, non critical thinker.

    Pick one.

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  • [–] 9 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Don't forget bot. Bots are cheap. Billionaires can pay for lots of them

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago

    A lot of lemmy and reddit comments are written by bots or marketing companies. Theres a whole industry of companies that sell the ability to influrnce others' opinions. Both political and via comments on products.

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago

    They are stupid. They dream of being one with no hope that they will even be a millionaire. They are stupid and that is all it is.

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago

    Because they're fucking stupid.

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    I think a Disney song might explain some of it...

    • You! (Whoop dee-wit) I wanna be like you (hap du hoowee-doo) I wanna walk like you (chuu) Talk like you, too (chuu) (We-be-de-be-du-wu) you see it's true (shubbedey-du) Someone like me (scubey-dubey-dubey) Can learn to be Like someone like me (take me home, daddy!) Can learn to be Like someone like you (one more time!) Yeah, can learn to be Like someone like me Zi-de-da-bapp bapp bada dodel-dad'n dad'n dad'n dad'n dad, eh Ah-babba di-di-dibbi-di Now, I'm the king of the swingers Oh, the jungle VIP
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  • [–] 8 points 5 months ago
    [–] 4 points 5 months ago

    Propaganda and "philanthropy".

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago* (1 child)

    Sometimes it's misinterpretation. When a post attacks something - doesn't have to be billionaires, it can be anything - calling out a sloppy argument or a low-effort anger dump doesn't go well. In a crowd full of pitchforks and torches, if you aren't jumping up and down waving pompoms for the attacker then anything you say is going to be taken as defending the target - you're an apologist or you're a shill for Evil. Supposedly we're all about Justice, but if the accused is a known Bad Guy the crowd doesn't really GAF if they're innocent in this one case, they're guilty anyway and holes in the argument don't matter. If your own sense of justice doesn't let you go along with the angry mob always being right, you're better off just staying out of those threads.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    i've never actually heard anyone defend billionaires irl. i don't really know who would do that.

    i think lots of people are still stuck in the 20th century mindset "if i work hard, i can make it". it just takes a while to wake up from a deep dream.

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago

    I have. Lots of people are strongly Faith-Based, and have accepted living their lives being told what to do by people in authority. They think God, Jesus, preachers, bosses, cops, politicians, wealthy people, celebrities, influencers, etc. all know better than they do, so they defer to them: "Those people care about me, and my safety, so I'll do what they tell me to do, and they won't get mad and hurt me."

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    The guys with the ai warehouses and their own social networks can muddy the waters all day long. There are idiots defending them, sure, but I think/hope it is mostly fake.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    They defend capital and will never own any of it

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    'some people'?

    As if the vast majority weren't glazing 'Papa Elon' and brilliant Bezos, etc not so long ago.
    While anyone could see what awful people they really were.

    Hypocrite libs and their selective memory.
    Now they're crying about something they helped create.

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  • [–] -2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (3 children)

    "Spending more than a billion dollars just on boats is a lot but not when daddy Gaben does it. Gaben gives me a product I like, he is therefore a good billionaire."

    Crazy to see comments about how it's never seen when half the steam threads turn into a circle jerk for this guy. Imagine calling it a benzostick instead of a fire stick as a sign of affection, like the simps do with the "GabeCube".

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago

    I see so many "everyone it the comments want to suck Gabes dick and claim they hate billionaires" and I've never once seen a comment in one of these threads defending him or justifying his wealth.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    Maybe people don't really hate billionaires as in the class. They just hate specific people in that class. Does it make sense, absolutely not, but I can't find any other explanation for that particular brand of simp. The products aren't even good, just the same pairs of shackles one can find at other locations... run by the billionaires they hate.

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  • [–] -4 points 5 months ago (7 children)

    Because being rich isn't a sin. Billionaires aren't some biblical demons ffs.

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  • [–] 9 points 5 months ago (6 children)

    Exploitation is a moral failing. You almost never become a billionaire withoit exploiting something.

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  • [–] -5 points 5 months ago (5 children)

    Assuming everyone from certain class is a fraud is like a new type of racism...

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    There is literally no ethical way to amass a billion dollars. Every single billionaire's wealth involved exploitation to accrue, without exception.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    Valve seems like a nice enough place to work. But, I agree that much of GabeN's wealth would not have accumulated without (a) Labor exploitation in the Game Development Industry in general and (b) Consumer exploitation through DRM and the DMCA.

    GabeN (and, e.g., TSwift) might not have directly, intentionally engaged in exploitation, but they have benefited from systems that institutionalize exploitation. (Sometimes, when the mask slips, people supporting those systems will claim the systems can't be profitable without the exploitation, in an attempt to justify the exploitation as a necessary "sacrifice" to Profit.)

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

    No, Capital has always been a criminal class, since Marx.

    Even Smith identified rent-seeking behavior as the primary enemy of free markets.

    At worst, "assuming everyone from a certain class is a fraud" could be considered a type of kink shaming. Where the kink is hoarding resources.

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  • [–] -3 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

    Complaining about "defending billionaires" is like complaining about public defenders defending criminals. Each argument stands alone. You just have to argue each one. The argument doesn't become valid or invalid based on who's one what side.

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