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65 comments in c/programming@programming.dev view that post
[–] 25 points 6 months ago (4 children)

AI tools can generate functional, adequate, perfectly average code at a speed and cost that would have been unimaginable even five years ago. And like the outsourcing wave of the early 2000s, the economics are real and rational. Nobody is wrong for using these tools. The code they produce is often fine. It works. It passes tests. It might ship as-is.

Not the first time I've read this kind of statement and I always struggle to reconcile this with my personal experience. I'm seriously doubting that I'm just not a "good enough prompter". I know how to explain context from domain to tech and vice versa, that's like, a good 20% of my job. I'd say that AI tools are good at producing code that already exists.

The LLMs are an interface to a corpus of written material. They've never had a thought, a chat around the coffee machine, or any experience in the largest sense of the world. This is a hard barrier on any induction they may emulate.

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    You're both correct, and also wrong.

    A lot of code already exists. Or at least in a close enough form that it can be easily adjusted to address a new situation.

    When someone comes up with an idea for a new App at this point, it's almost never because it's an entirely new branch of computing. It's very likely just CRUD with a visual design, and then a small more complex algorithm to mix the data around behind the scenes.

    What's the difference between a dating app and an automatic meal plan builder? The algorithm doesn't care about whether or not the recipe swiped back when it matches it up to you.

    You're right that they're not going to be inventing entirely new things most of the time, that's just not what's needed of them most of the time.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Fortunately software is much more than App ideas fishing for VC investments. A lot of us are building actual tools for nurses, teachers, technicians, artists, students, etc. We have to analyze these human beings' role in society, their needs, their situation, which is different from merely preying on their attention span. Programming languages are still the most reliable way to specify how the software must behave. And once the software is done, it is merely born. It then lives through a steady flow of continuous adaptation until one day it dies as all things do. Downplaying the human condition is a mistake.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago*

    You missed the point. The point is that almost all software today follows the same general ideas, patterns, etc.

    The quality of the output of AI is not tied to what these patterns are used towards. Even if, say, your tool has a completely new network protocol. An LLM will still "understand" that it is a network protocol, that it serializes following rules that you tell it, serializes and deserializes the way you decide, then it will write that down in a memory and be able to work with that.

    A new file format? Same. A very specialized new kind of No-SQL database that fits your very specific tool better? It will also write down in a file how it works and be able to use that.

    It's as good as the documentation you give it is. Which, for basic things such as setting up a basic REST API, it has learned in its training data. If it hasn't, it's up to you to provide it, and it will be perfectly able to use it.

    Even if you build some weird unique assembly language it will be able to use it if you give it the set of instructions and their documentation.

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  • [–] 70 points 6 months ago (54 children)

    We need the equivalent investment now. If average code is cheap, then the scarce resource is no longer the ability to produce it. The scarce resource is the ability to read it, to navigate it

    You know what would help a lot with understanding the code one is working on? Writing it yourself without turning your brain off via AI.

    But that's an insight the article somehow seems to be missing.

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  • [+] -15 points 6 months ago (44 children)
  • [–] 28 points 6 months ago (13 children)

    I have over 25 years of development experience. My current role is vice president of development and architecture where I lead a team of 80+ devs, QAs, and architects. By any measure, I am one of those "engineer level" developers you speak of.

    Yes, LLMs are a tool, but it's a tool one should use sparingly. LLMs are pattern recognition machines and are great for routine, been-there-done-that type development. For anything that deviates from the norm, LLMs will try to force everything back into common patterns... even when those patterns are not correct. A well designed system can be mangled into junk because the LLM doesn't have enough context or because something is new.

    Be skeptical of the rave reviews around coding agents and the use of LLMs for development. Much of the hype seems tied to developer skill. Less capable developers can use LLMs to appear more capable than they are. For good developers, LLMs seem to erode their skills as they rely on the tool instead of their own knowledge. I have seen this first hand.

    Overall, it seems LLMs raise skills of bad developers and hamper the skills of good developers. It's creating a bunch of middling developers who are incapable of handling anything novel or complex.

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  • [+] -17 points 6 months ago (10 children)

    Wen was the last time you actually wrote something production level yourself?

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  • [+] 27 points 6 months ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)
  • [–] -3 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    I'm not pro AI or anti AI. I am anti big tech though, which makes the discussion more complicated.

    Regarding escalation, a non coding team lead isn't a dev. A CTO isn't a dev. A software architect isn't a dev. A software developer is a dev. That's not an escalation, it's a fact.

    Just because you lead a team of devs, doesn't mean you are a software developer, you could've gone to business school, never written a line of code and just started leading a team of software developers because you learned "how to lead". And there are different kinds of team leads, those that get their hands dirty and those that don't.

    So no, being a CTO, CEO, or whatever C you want to put in front of your title doesn't make you "far exceed" any qualification. I actually think that kind of thinking is the problem workers are underpaid: people who lead actually often exceedingly overestimate their abilities in the craft they lead. "I lead a team of athletes, that means I'm a good athlete". Do you understand how crazy that sounds?

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  • [–] 11 points 6 months ago* (5 children)
  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    please review this Lemmy thread and come up with a good way to keep moving the goal posts so that I can feel like I'm right

    @onlinepersona prompting chatgpt right now

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  • [–] -3 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    Imagine you're a worker of any kind. Some kid from university with a business degree and no experience in your job becomes team leader. They've learned to "lead". Does that make them an expert in your craft?

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago*

    My degree is in Computer Engineering, dipshit.

    You made up this fantasy that somehow I don't know what I'm talking about based on nothing other than you wanting me to be wrong so your world view isn't challenged.

    I stared out with the assumption that you were having a good faith discussion. It's now clear that you're a troll, tech bro, AI lover, or all of the above. At this point, I'm done with you and encourage others to be as well.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    I'm not sure what you're getting at. By definition, an "expert" is someone with a lot of "experience". Your hypothetical kid has "no experience". Since we know that 1+1=2, I think we can deduce that the answer to your question is no.

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  • [–] -2 points 6 months ago

    The person I was responding to was equating their experience as a leader to being an expert in software development. And even if they had been a good developer 5, 10, or 15 years ago, that doesn't make them stay an expert. Either you're working in the field with the relevant experience, and position, or you're not.

    Your qualifications as a software developer don't magically increase to say "far exceed the required qualifications" just because you lead a team, a division, or a company. Otherwise Satya Nadella, Bill Gates, and Jeff Bezos would be the best software developers in the world.

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  • [+] 12 points 6 months ago (6 children)
  • [–] 10 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (3 children)

    I also think there still hasn't been a study showing consistent long term significant(!) productivity gain for coders. (Other than lines of code in total, but that alone is a poor measure.) The amount of new hidden bugs and other issues seem to outweigh most of the perceived gains.

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  • [–] 23 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    LLMs are a tool that can lift up the quality of coding work

    Imagine telling on yourself like this.

    And that is right after implying that you are a "proficient professional coder" that is "like engineer level" unlike those pesky "anti ai warriors". Jesus fucking Christ.

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  • [+] -12 points 6 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 7 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    My entire point was in one single sentence, and yet you managed to shit out three sentences, not even remotely addressing that.

    I'm saying that if the output puked out by an LLM is of better quality than your own code, something you literally just confessed to, then you're nothing but a hack. An impostor.

    What does the fact that you've been training anyone have to do with that? What does a degree, or lack thereof, have to do with anything? I've seen plenty of hacks employed as "seniors", some with a CompSci degree. The kind of hacks that used to be overly reliant on StackOverflow in the past. The kind of hacks that write poorly performing garbage, yet quote Knuth's "premature optimization is the root of all evil" (completely missing the context) when you confront them about it.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago

    I mean its more like self driving cars than cars themselves; it can work, but also steering wheels were created by the devs for a reason - even if most are too lazy to understand that reason.

    Like I'd agree hand coding in assembly is (mostly) useless these days, but honestly I feel like the efficiency problems ai is trying to solve were largely solved 50 years ago with compilers.

    (and like isnt digesting large outputs the entire point of being an engineering level dev? like if youre just there to pray to the software gods, you'd do much better as a CRUD script kiddie anyways)

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago (12 children)

    Even if AI were the miracle people like you suggest, you're still destroying the environment. But also it's not miraculous. Which you conflictingly say is and is not the case...

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  • [+] -5 points 6 months ago (11 children)
  • [–] 11 points 6 months ago* (7 children)

    All the studies I've found so far seem to disagree, so why should we believe you?

    https://www.anthropic.com/research/AI-assistance-coding-skills (2026 study)

    We found that using AI assistance led to a statistically significant decrease in mastery.

    Using AI sped up the task slightly, but this didn’t reach the threshold of statistical significance.

    https://futurism.com/artificial-intelligence/new-findings-ai-coding-overhyped (2025 study)

    But those claims appear to be massively overblown, as The Register reports, with researchers finding that productivity gains are modest at best — and at worst, that AI can actually slow down human developers.

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  • [+] 0 points 6 months ago (6 children)
  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago* (5 children)

    AIs are (apparently) stupid and fail at non-trivial tasks. They also enjoy deleting production databases. They seem atrocious with any sort of quality.

    What would AI possibly be useful for, if you care about quality work?

    (I suppose they can sometimes help with vulnerability scanning and writing mindless e-mails if you're some sort of overworked customr agent, but those are pretty narrow uses. And I'm not going to upload my stuff to big tech data sloppers myself just for some slightly better vulnerability scanning.)

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  • [+] 1 point 6 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago* (3 children)

    That's the thing, I don't think LLMs bring many benefits. Too many lies, and so on.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Explain how this amount of electricity use could ever be "ethically sourced". That's not even much of a thing for meat, which at least provides nutrients. AI slop is everywhere and most of it is not helping anyone with anything.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago* (1 child)

    There are definitely real engineers being strongly anti-AI. The problem, in my opinion, is that they just didn't really try working with them.

    They're incredibly powerful tools, and they don't only amplify bad developers, they amplify every developer that really tries to work with it.

    The mistake people make is delegating the decision making to the AI. Let the tool be a tool, not a brain. You architect, you design, you order, it writes the code. You review the code. There you go, you have a pretty good quality code, better than most devs will produce, following your design and architecture, you controlled the entire decision making, and you did it in 5x less time.

    I also think that it has become too useful to disappear in engineering.

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  • [+] -6 points 6 months ago (8 children)

    Take away a calculator halfway through an exam, and suddenly, people are surly and unmotivated about simple long division.

    That's how every 'AI makes you stupid!' article works. Like, 'doctors used AI to detect more cancer, but when we took it away, they were worse at eyeballing it.' Sorry, can we go back to the part about detecting cancer better?

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  • [–] 8 points 6 months ago* (7 children)

    The doctors were worse, not just taking longer. So this would be more like people unlearning division.

    While people using calculators may occasionally be unlearning division, this seems less problematic than doctors unlearning how to spot cancer on their own (since then I'm guessing you won't have AI training data anymore since apparently AI can't feed into AI without collapse) or software engineers unlearning how to write correct code.

    You also wouldn't want a mathematician unlearning how to do division.

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago (6 children)

    The doctors were better, until someone yanked the tool away. That's how every tool works! Even going from a handsaw to a table saw and back will make you lose some skill with the handsaw, because your brain focused on higher-level goals and finer motions. That's not proof a table saw is bad for woodworking. The problem is "and back."

    since apparently AI can’t feed into AI without collapse

    Have you checked on that narrative? It's been a while. Things stopped getting yellow. Improvements continued.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago* (5 children)

    Have you checked on that narrative?

    The only workaround known so far seems to be to make sure enough data is fresh: https://www.inria.fr/en/collapse-ia-generatives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_collapse But read for yourself.

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    That's a lot of "could" and "will" from an article a year old, primarily about concerns from two years ago, while image models to-day keep getting smaller and better. They didn't find a second internet's worth of JPEGs. Better training on the same data, or even better labels on less data, beats a simple obsession with scale.

    Yes, photocopying a photocopy will degrade, but diffusion is a denoising algorithm. Un-degrading an image is its central function. 'Make it look less AI' is how you get generative adversarial networks.

    Anyway, the grim truth is that the central concern is mistaken. Training data for cancer screening does not require the patient lived.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago* (3 children)

    The article links a study. What's your study that collapse isn't a concern?

    For what it's worth, my worry was never focused on cancer, these doctors were just an example measured for the likely universal unlearning effect.

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago* (2 children)

    I again submit the last two years where model collapse did not happen. The doom-and-gloom predictions - some rather gleeful - plainly missed the mark. The proliferation of generated content has not in fact ruined the content generators, and it's sure not because we're any good at marking generated content. Early symptoms went away entirely and the problem has been practically addressed.

    As for "unlearning," universality is why it's a made-up problem. Nobody loudly complains that x-rays make doctors worse at feeling around for lumps.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago

    This is approaching unfalsifiable.

    Is classifying generated data ever intractable, when you can just... generate some? Even if the portion of human content dwindled - rather new human content, since there's a recent hard cutoff - there's a faucet for counterexamples. You can have as much for-sure machine-generated content as you like, to point at and go, wrong.

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  • [–] 7 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (3 children)

    Meh, disagree with a lot of this.

    AI tools can generate functional, adequate, perfectly average code

    Not in my experience.

    The outsourcing era taught us that the expensive part of software was never writing it. It was understanding it well enough to change it safely, to debug it under pressure, to explain to the next person why a particular decision was made at 2 a.m. on a Tuesday.

    Since AI is adequate, just have AI change, debug, and explain it. You don't even need devs running the AI. Have AI generate intent. Just have AI scrape Twitter for people complaining about applications they wish existed, and have the AI make them. Let AI do market research. It's supposedly perfectly adequate.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago

    Its perfectly adequate generating simple scripts if you know what it's doing or complex programs IF.you have a "harness" which is to say tones of well defined scopes, design docs, coding guidelines, and a dev and test environment with written and automatic unit and integration tests.

    Basically every devs wish lists. You get adequate complex coding results.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago

    As if needing to be able to understand code quickly wasn't already a problem before LLMs.

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  • 9 comments in c/technology@lemmy.world view that post
    [–] 48 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    I was having this exact conversation with one of the archetects in my company - top down orders were to start integrating llm's into our engineering workflows - so be it, they sign my paychecks and selfishly i want those to keep flowing - but beyond the quality and slop concerns i had already raised and were disregarded, i was realizing that i was losing my intuition about the code i was releasing under my name - it takes me longer to answer questions and i cant just wing my answers based on the intuition built during development because i didnt build intuition during development when development was outsourced to the llm - thats a liability im trying to highlight to managment and their risk analysis and also to myself for risk reduction

    Intuition isnt made in documentation (nor the slopdocs llms makes that no sane person will ever actually read) - its built by the effort of comprehension and theyll be no shortcut to that

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  • [–] 8 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    I agree and yet if this is what the paycheck signers WANT… and if we work for paychecks… then aren’t we giving them exactly what they asked for?

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  • [–] 46 points 6 months ago

    But we've seen this pattern before. When code production gets cheap, the cost doesn't disappear. It migrates. It moves from creation to comprehension.

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  • [–] 21 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    "AI" coding tools can offer some value. The problem is that they often generate tech debt with pay day loan level interest rates. What's made the interest rate so high is that now, not only do you have the actual code base tech debt. You also have a bunch of code that no one understands and the barrier to entry for software engineering has become so high that fewer younger people are actually learning how to be good programmers. Lots of organizations don't give a shit about their rapidly growing mountain of tech debt today but they're sure going to at the end of the week when the payment comes due.

    What their "leadership" fails to understand is that any idiot can shell out code. I've seen lots of terrible programmers generate millions of lines of really shitty code that somehow, by the power of the dark Lord himself, manages to compile. That's not what a software engineer actually does though. Software engineers design operational systems with software. Writing code is a secondary function of that. There are currently no AI agents that can successfully design a software system with any degree of complexity because LLM's don't actually understand anything.

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago

    I think it's more of a "how you use it" thing, but you're definitely right that AI agents can't design systems properly.

    Some people I know have produced way more code, removed tech debt, and all without introducing any bugs since they started using AI. That's because they're not using it to do anything beyond their skillset, understand everything it's doing, and are using it to catch mistakes they otherwise would have made. Other people are using it without reviewing the output, or are using it to try and do things beyond their skillset, and that's how you end up with infinite tech debt and a whole host of bugs.

    Personally I've recently started heavily using the AI code review bot we have at our company, both for my own code and other people's. While 50% of what it says is hallucination or wrong, that's not an issue because I know it's wrong or a hallucination so can just tell it no and to focus on other things, like catching bugs or issues that most reviewers would just glance past, and also gives you a rubber duck that talks back.

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  • [–] 10 points 6 months ago

    The profits also aggregate at the top. The problem is it’s short term, and the later cost isn’t funded by the top as it’s a one-way flow.

    Record profits, new product release: they’re often followed immediately by layoffs so the next quarter’s metrics look extra good and they can cash in.

    The few poor souls remaining hold the fort until hiring starts again and the cash out cycle begins once more.

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago

    Problem is the code is crap. Code without intent is crap. Code IS intent. LLMs are just statistical models with no understanding.

    They are fancy copy paste machines. They have some minor "intelligence" but it's pretty much just the ability to associate like information. Their responses are nothing but compositions of there training data and local context.

    It has some uses granted. But writing your code beyond auto complete or extremely simple and straight forward tasks isn't one of them. LLM generated code is not production ready code.

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