Look, I'd be happy if they just open source the server code. You don't need to force the fucks to run the damn software. That's like the worst idea ever.
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A third option should be release the server protocol.
Cool. So then they force the subscription model.
The problem is you want your cake and you want to eat it too.
I want to eat the cake I bought. I don't want to buy a cake and then have it taken away from me before I'm finished eating it.
I understand you don't want to deliver cake anymore. That's fine. You need to open the rest of the box so I can get the rest of my cake out. You don't need to deliver anymore to me You just need to not take away the cake I already have.
There's just too many liabilities there.
A lot of these games they have routines to update the entire software OR simply where they can run arbitrary scripts or things like that. Arbitrary code execution would be a huge problem. Even if it wasn't an automatic thing and you could simply push a message out to people, "hey you need to update this, you know we don't have the money Ubisoft has, but we're making some updates anyways because we love y'all! So go download this... And please donate to keep the show going!" Bam. Pwned.
Things like maintaining usernames and passwords being passed off to Independent third parties? The users would fucking revolt at such an idea.
This is one of those things that I get sounds really good in the perfect utopian society where there's no bad actors. But the reality is people want your cake.
Oh, come on.
Any game with a sufficiently sized community will also have, as part of that community, enough nerds to run private servers if need be.
Hell, WoW is 20 years old and still has to sue to shut down private servers. There's plenty of ways to make this happen.
You're right that there should be concerns about connecting old games to a random server that can push software updates.
However, I think you're misunderstanding what the SKG movement is as well as what this legislation is asking for.
It's not asking for companies to leave the servers running indefinitely. It's definitely not telling them to just allow a 3rd party to take over the databases with all of the information there.
It's telling companies to provide information upfront about what consumers can expect when the game servers are officially shut down. It's telling them to have a plan for shutting the game down.
It provides some options for what those plans could look like:
- Offline mode (and communicate what features will no longer be available)
- Allow private servers
- Refunds
The current version of this bill has an exception for free games and subscription only based games.
A refund makes no sense.
That's eerily similar to asking for a refund at an arcade machine because you died.
Yea, exactly. This idiotic bill is trying to leverage that which has none, nor should!
The way I see it, a refund is a last resort if they are unable to follow through on the other 2 options.
Using your analogy, asking for a refund at an arcade would be more like asking for a refund for a subscription based online only game. In both of those cases you're paying to play for a limited amount of time. This bill has an exclusion for that already, so it's not an issue here.
Think of it this way: Imagine you bought a kitchen appliance (like a refrigerator) that has a screen on the door for creating timers, leaving notes, and checking the weather.
One day, the company says they're shutting down the servers so that your refrigerator will no longer be able to check the weather, sync notes, etc. However, along with this update the refrigerator will no longer be able to keep food cold.
Wouldn't you want a refund at that point so that you could buy a new one? Or better yet, maybe we need a law to tell these companies that shutting down their servers shouldn't affect the core features of the appliance.
This is basically what's started happening to a large number of games. Instead of just losing access to a few online features, companies are locking us out of the entire game, even if they are mainly a single player game. Just look at what happened to The Crew.
The way I see it, a refund is a last resort if they are unable to follow through on the other 2 options.
And I expect companies trying to present refund as the default option, squeezing negative PR out of it and using it for astroturfing against SKG as a whole
So do you sue MTG because no one wants to play magic anymore?
Same with the pogs people?
The other incredibly shit things people fawn over and then discard like trash?
No dude. You're trying to sell me some bullshit and I'm not buying it. That's what you don't get!
I would accept that if I did pay for such a thing I would be a complete fucking moron and so -no - I wouldn't be entitled to a refund. And that's probably expressed in their policy - they don't issue refunds - and so I don't know why you would want one after you've read their terms and you've agreed to buy in their product with the expectation of no refund.
You sound completely fucking insane.
I think the refrigerator example is a much more accurate representation of what's happening here.
It's not about whether you can find friends to play with, its about a company remotely disabling something you bought which should be able to work whether it's connected to the internet or not.
What if a bunch of car manufacturers start requiring an internet connection just to turn on your car (for security/safety reasons). Then after 5 years they shut down those servers and say, "buy a new one". You're telling me that, rather than supporting a law to deter the practice, you would rather just avoid buying cars from that company?
Abstractions were always a problem for you.
As towards your question. Yes. And a harder yes. I would not buy shit from them. And if I saw their vehicles I might slash the tires and smash a window or four.
That's the problem with most of you on lemmmeeeeznuts. You're like half punk, sometimes, you're not a real punk cuz you don't really want to do anything that might get you in trouble but you really love people who do?
Grow some balls.
And if every car manufacturer starts to do the same thing with their vehicles, then you won't be left with much of a choice. And no amount of slashing tires or smashing windows will actually change anything.
At that point the only option you have left is to go through the legal system. That's where real change can happen.
Side note, technically I'm not on Lemmy, I'm on PieFed. But we're all connected, so I'm assuming you actually meant to talk about Fediverse users in general.
I'm assuming you actually meant to talk about Fediverse users in general.
I was referring only to you.
I think you might have replied to the wrong comment or thread.
That's not the first time you've been wrong. I added a quote, just for/by u.
Cuz apparently you can't fucking read or you don't know what you just said.
I don't expect to be right all the time. There's always more to learn. Anyway, thank you for taking the time to respond. I appreciate hearing your perspective on the matter, even if we do have differing opinions.
Dude. I play BAR. It's literally open source spin off of a popular video game. It updates itself. It has been running for like over a decade. It is like the iron manning of this model.
Abd it works! Its great! No problems! You act like corpos cant brick your shit with mandatory updates, which may or may not run on pure vibes. Do you remember the past two years?
I described what it was.
yes and I searched duck-duck-go for BAR game rts and got shit results. thankfully someone provided a link. Perhaps if you'd specified BAR Beyond All Reason I may have found it while walking and typing lol, but yeah, you described what it was but din't really make it easy to find.
have a great day.
No, you have a great day, you fucking piece of shit!
You have the best day of your fucking life! Experience new heights of happiness you fucking asshole! Chart a new greater course for your life than you ever could have imagined, and experience the bliss of becoming! You fucker!
Iron manning? You mean a strongman? Like the opposite of a straw man(the fallacy, the myth, the legend?)
Abd(sic) it works!?
I act like what? Bro. You don't know me. I'm a pirate.... So miss me with your assumptions.
Again. A totally vague question. What specifically in the past 2 years could you possibly be referring to because it's not indicated by your idiotic fucking message.
And if you don't reply I will not in any way be disappointed and I'm certainly not holding my breath.
+1. Often no reason to not push a open server option when they shutdown when they drop a game they sold. I am certain that publishers will just try to release them for free though and charge a subscription. May not be successful though.
Which is also fine. Then you haven't bought anything that they break after the fact. They just cancel all subscriptions.
Thats not a business model we want to encourage.
Games should be buy once, play forever.
Yeah that's not how online games work though. Servers cost money, probably way more than you would expect, which is why online games used to use monthly subscriptions until people decided they didn't like that so they moved to free-to-play with micro transactions instead. Guild Wars 2 is a good example of how an MMO can be run without needing a monthly sub by making everyone by each individual expansion, in the beginning you even had to buy the content for each story patch but the newer patch content is free with the expansion afaik. Online games don't have to be predatory with their pricing but they do need to make a lot of money to keep the lights on.
But those studios could still provide tools necessary to keep the games playable after they no longer want to support it.
No one is asking for laws that force studios to foot the bill for indefinite support. But games don't have to built in such a way that access can be entirely removed at the whim of a dev or publisher.
Lots of MMOs have private servers already. It's not a revolutionary ask.
I think the point is more that when they decide they don’t want to run the servers anymore they should have to release the server code or in some other way allow the server to be run locally so that the game isn’t useless.
Also, until about 15 years ago, it was completely expected that you would buy a software once and they would still run their servers. That’s why windows used to cost like $350 in mid 2000s dollars, you could still reasonably expect to get online updates for it years later.
Yeah but do you think people will pay $350 up front for a video game?
It's not up to me to pay extra for servers, they should take the costs of them into account when deciding to make an online game.
Games like World of Warcraft make you pay for DLC and a subscription, which is ridiculous. OSRS just asks for a monthly subscription, is that a model I want to see expanded? Absolutely fucking not. On topic though, games with that model should still have to release the entire game for free after they close the official servers.
So do you think people would happily pay possibly hundreds of dollars upfront to play an MMO to "account for server costs"? Players have to pay extra no matter what, if the customer isn't paying for the server costs who is? You also have to keep in mind that WoW expansions are massive compared to most OSRS updates and are released on a fairly short schedule, that kind of dev cycle takes a lot of money to maintain.
No, the point of the Stop Killing Games initiative is to make games buy once, be playable forever somehow. If a game releases that is dependent on server infrastructure, the studio should have an end of life plan. That could look like many things, including releasing the tools necessary for anyone else to spin up a server.
Yeah, but that doesn't actually include games like, say, World of Warcraft. You can only buy monthly subscription. You are told it will run out in a month and you will need to pay again to play. It's not the greatest model, but it's not the same things as games where you pay once, without being told the game is going to shut down or when, then it suddenly becomes unplayable at a random time when the publisher decides to kill it.
Paying once and having the game shut down a year later, and paying the same price but a little once a month and having the game shut down a year later is the same. I don't get this thinking at all.
Stop Killing Games initiative has been targeting what they consider a winnable legal case, not necessarily the best ethical one. So, as the other poster said, they are not targeting subscription based games as much or at all on the basis that those are up front about the fact that your access is lost without a subscription.
I do, personally, wish to see all games playable forever but I fully understand why they are strategizing the way that they are.
The WoW example is a little different from a subscription standpoint in that the server is a arguably major part of the game itself. The content you see, your character's data, world events, etc. all happen server-side. WoW is a lot more than just some netcode to get clients talking in a one-shot.
That being said, if Blizzard were to sunset WoW, then it should also be required to provide a way to self-host a server and a client update to connect to third party servers without needing to modify game files.
I'm not even saying they need to open-source it or make it free, just make a server application available.
In the second case the publisher is upfront about it and you are told this is how it will work when you pay. The first case is basically fraud, where you're paying for something on the assumption you'll be able to keep it and then it gets destroyed.
In the end it boils down to which practice can be reasonably attacked on legal grounds, not necessarily how predatory it is.
No, all games should release server binaries (and the game for free if it's a subscription model) after they close down. Same for free-to-play or whatever, we should have the right to archive games.
Can you even play Minecraft locally if Microsoft shuts down their authentication servers nowadays ?
I do hope we get dedicated server software be normal again. I kinda want to play Overwatch 1 again. But I can't. No server software and the game client was converted to overwatch 2.
I should be able to start overwatch 1, spin up a server and play with my friends right now. It was stolen from me.
I actively avoid purchasing games that don't allow client hosting. And I generally try to avoid games that matchmake. I'm tired of shitty matchmaking. I'm tired of corporate hosted lobbies. I'm tired of getting kicked out after each match and having to matchmake with an entirely different group of players.
Give me dedicated client hosted servers. Let us form relationships with other players by playing in the same servers on a regular basis. Gaming is more fun that way.

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