top 12 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [S] 23 points 7 months ago

Explanation: The image is from a famous (if not entirely accurate) 19th century painting depicting the Roman conspirator Catiline (pictured) being harangued by the politician and famed orator Cicero.

Catiline was accused (almost certainly correctly) of attempting to overthrow the Roman Republic... but Cicero's oratory is infamous amongst Latin students for taking forever to place the verb and stop filling up space with nested statements. DRAMATIC EFFECT

If Cicero doesn't reach the damn verb in the next 15 minutes, Catiline's coup is perfectly legal!

It's the only way Roman law could stop Cicero from going on indefinitely. 😔

  • source
  • [–] 12 points 7 months ago (10 children)

    So it's not only us Germans who delay the verb that much. Just be glad you don't work as an interpreter for Ancient Latin

  • source
  • hideshow 10 child comments
  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    Korean comes to mind as an SOV language.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    There are many SOV languages, including Japanese and Turkish. In fact, SOV is the most common word order, followed by SVO and after a gap VSO.

    The thing about German is that it can be both but the word order isn't free either, as it is in Latin, but there are rules that aren't straightforward at first glance. So short sentences often have SVO with a 1:1 translation to English but the more complicated the sentence, the more often you have SOV, especially when you count the content word and not the auxiliary. I can go into more detail how this so called "verb second" works if you want. But I think that that's where the frustration comes from: easy sentences are intuitive and then – boom – out of the blue it changes.

    Also: German is a Western European language so English native speakers are more likely to come into contact with it.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    I'm a native German speaker. German is only strictly SOV in dependent clauses, in main clauses verb is is always in second position (V2) and if it's more than one verb everything else is pushed to the end of the clause.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago

    I'm also a native speaker and you said nothing that contradicts what I said. I even elaborated on the difference between auxiliary and content verbs. No one cares about the former.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    Unless it's a fragment, the conjugated verb is always second in German (which at times is an auxiliary), with other verbs stuffed at the end. I would consider it a solid SVO language, though I am not a linguist.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago
    [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    Even with my terrible level in Latin, I'm glad to say I got that reference!

  • source
  • 9 comments in c/historymemes@piefed.social view that post
    [–] [S] 29 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    Explanation: The image is from a famous (if not entirely accurate) 19th century painting depicting the Roman conspirator Catiline (pictured) being harangued by the politician and famed orator Cicero.

    Catiline was accused (almost certainly correctly) of attempting to overthrow the Roman Republic... but Cicero's oratory is infamous amongst Latin students for taking forever to place the verb and stop filling up space with nested statements. DRAMATIC EFFECT

    If Cicero doesn't reach the damn verb in the next 15 minutes, Catiline's coup is perfectly legal!

    It's the only way Roman law could stop Cicero from going on indefinitely. 😔

  • source
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago

    there's a scene from a Samuel Beckett play - one of my favorites but definitely for the hard-core Beckett fan - in which two administrators are examinaning testimonials from a man's life while he stands on a window ledge working out whether he should jump to his death or not. In it they interview someone he knows and leads to one of the administrators yelling "WHERES THE VERB?!?!!" which in a better world I could post as a Relatable Meme

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    I got curious what that would even sound like and tried to look it up. Is it the First of the four Catilinarian Orations?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago*
    [–] 5 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    And yet...

    Quousque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra?

    Imagine being the most boring guy in the Republic and still being remembered for this kind of sentences.

  • source
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] [S] 3 points 7 months ago

    Cicero certainly has some damn good lines! I just wouldn't want to read an entire oratory in the original Latin.

    Considering that the Romans were intensely aware of the spoken rhythm of rhetoric, it may also be just that we are a less oral culture than the Romans were.

  • source
  • parent
  • 4 comments in c/roughromanmemes@piefed.social view that post
    [–] [S] 6 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    Explanation: The image is from a famous (if not entirely accurate) 19th century painting depicting the Roman conspirator Catiline (pictured) being harangued by the politician and famed orator Cicero.

    Catiline was accused (almost certainly correctly) of attempting to overthrow the Roman Republic... but Cicero's oratory is infamous amongst Latin students for taking forever to place the verb and stop filling up space with nested statements. DRAMATIC EFFECT

    If Cicero doesn't reach the damn verb in the next 15 minutes, Catiline's coup is perfectly legal!

    It's the only way Roman law could stop Cicero from going on indefinitely. 😔

  • source
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    So how can anyone make sense of a sentence that takes a whole paragraph to get to the verb? What tricks does Laron have to help people keep subject and order straight while waiting around? Was Cicero mocked for keeping such weird language order run on sentences?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] [S] 7 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    It was normal in Latin for the verb to go at the end, or near the end, of a sentence. Latin relies heavily on context and matching up word endings for meaning, rather than word order, I believe. Since word order was largely recommended rather than mandatory, Latin poetry could get very 'flexible'.

    Cicero's nested statements were considered ornate and eloquent rather than tedious - one assumes assisted by verbal delivery. Very likely there is an element of classism here, though, as Roman society was immensely classist - by showing an elaborate ability to construct sentences that are extensive, wordplay-heavy, embellished, and yet still grammatically correct, Cicero displays higher learning, which was valued as a marker of social class.

    Apparently, when Cicero was in his 20s and seeking an advanced rhetoric teacher to hone his style, he was instructed by said teacher in simplifying his rhetoric - a process Cicero seems to think worked and was core to his (then-current) style. One shudders to think of how elaborate pre-correction Cicero might have gotten!

    By contrast, Julius Caesar is noted to have had a very simple and clear, yet pleasing, style of writing/speech, and both Cicero and Caesar - despite being on opposite political sides - expressed admiration for the other's literary/rhetorical ability, with Caesar regarding Cicero as the master of Latin literary rhetoric, and Cicero regarding Caesar's writings as so pure (stylistically) and clear that there could simply be no improving on them.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    Latin poetry could get very ‘flexible’.

    Ovid is the worst offender in that department. He basically took all the words he wanted to say and arranged them in order to achieve the perfect rhythm. Because Roman poetry wasn't about rhymes, but rhythm.

  • source
  • parent