Silence of the Lambs star Ted Levine says he regrets film’s trans depictions: "Having gotten aware and worked with trans folks, and understanding a bit more about the culture & the meaning of gender… It’s unfortunate that the film vilified that, and it’s fucking wrong. And you can quote me on that."

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[–] 31 points 8 months ago (11 children)

When I see such a film (Alfred Hitchcock’s Psycho is another example) I take it as an indicator how far we’ve come.

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  • [–] 19 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    Yes, it was a different time. Not defending it, just saying that people did not have the same insights and viewpoints as we have today.

    Judging past people by today's standards is not fair. You can judge their modern-day image by today's standards, but not their past selves.

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  • [–] 14 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    To a degree.

    It’s not always so black and white. Take for example child marriages where little girls were betrothed to older dudes. Or how some cultures would treat people based on race, gender, etc.

    Some things can, and should, be judged critically (holocaust, “comfort women”). Some things can get a pass (movies like Silence pf the Lambs).

    TL;DR history should be judged on a case by case basis and we should avoid blanket judgement.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    I’ll argue that Fatal Games is bad, was always bad, and forever will be bad, and it’s not because times were different. It’s because they picked a lazy bigoted trope to build the killer off of.

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  • [–] 16 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Especially since Silence of the Lambs only came out like, what, 15 years ago.

    fact checks himself; sees it is 35 years old

    Well fuck.

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  • [+] 12 points 8 months ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)
  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    On the bright side, at least TOS was trying to push other social norms the right way, and they did some good. They didn’t get everything right but they got the ball rolling.

    And on Trek: TNG started out with some pretty questionable episodes (especially the borderline racist planet), but it also gave us Measure of a Man, that reverse-sex planet with Riker, and introduced species like the Binars and that androgynous race which I tried to push some more boundaries. Then DS9 went ahead and gave us DAX, who I think in the early seasons did a good job kind of introducing some of the issues with identity that pertain to gender transitioning (I loved the Klingon approach: Dax, my old friend!).

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago*

    i think that was a "agender planet people" ENterprise had the xindi insectoids, as genderless species too, and a putative 3rd sex in vissian race, which dint affect thier relationship/trade apparently since they gave starfleet photonic torpedo tech.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago

    I still think it's an absolutely hilarious, and likely unintended, stroke of genius with the Binars.

    They take the Hat to the extreme, where every single aspect of their very being involves binary in some way, to the point of always working in pairs.

    Except their gender.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago

    Is Psycho seen as transphobic? In the big exposition at the end of the movie

    Tap for spoilersomeone accuses Norman of being a transvestite and the psychologist interrupts to clarify that Norman didn’t dress as his mother to “achieve a sexual change or satisfaction,” but specifically because he was “doing everything possible to keep alive the illusion of his mother being alive.”

    Contrast that with The Silence of the Lambs, where the character’s sexual “deviancy” is actually portrayed as a motivating facet of his murderous, perverted mind. Psycho seems pretty nuanced by comparison and even progressive by the standards of 1960.

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    [–] 26 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    While I definitely get it and don't disagree in the slightest, I also would just like to point out that upon seeing the film (even at what most people would probably consider way too young an age lol) did I ever think that Bill's plan to make himself a new skin by murdering and sewing together the skin of his victims was being portrayed as an accepted, reasonable path toward gender reassignment... I mean, dude is literally what you would expect to see pictured on the Wikipedia article for 'crackhead serial killing psycho' lol I feel like that should be one of your first indicators that a character isn't like a 'good dude' or something. 😋

    In all seriousness, tho, it trips me out that there are absolutely people out there who would be more than happy to engage in the mental gymnastics necessary to twist reality into whatever fucked up pretzel they need to push their narrative.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago

    Right? I actually find it really pandering when a marginalized group is consistently depicted as infallible. They stop being characters and become stand-in caricatures.

    Obviously, its a worse issue when it happens the other way around.

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  • [–] 26 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    My book club read the book about a year ago and from what I remember it devoted a scene to clearly explaining that Buffalo Bill did not meet the criteria for gender reassignment surgery and was just kinda sick in the head. We were impressed with how it was handled for the time that it was written. Unsurprisingly this scene did not translate well when rewritten for the movie.

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  • [–] 14 points 8 months ago

    I just finished the book last week and the part where Lecture and Clarice discuss Bufaalo Bill being trans, they basically say "He isn't trans, he's just crazy and real trans people are not violent usually and keep to themselves". I'm not defending the passage, it is still not great when reading it today, but for being from the 80s it was pretty dang respectful, mostly.

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  • [–] 19 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    But the movie explicitly states that Buffalo Bill is not trans, and explains why.

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  • [–] 11 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Demonizing male gender nonconformity isn't great either.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago

    Right, they should have focused on demonising the nonconforming super intelligent neurodiverse Eastern European man-eating psychiatrist only. Or perhaps the abusive greedy mental hospital owner. Or the cops who are too stupid to keep a single man locked up. 🤦‍♂️

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago

    People tend not to pick up or remember details though - see all the “Mandela Effects” that are just mass misremembering of precise lines amplified by culture. The imagery is what counts, and agree in this case that Buffalo Bill is clearly part of a continuum of feminised male villains of the era it’s from.

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  • [–] 11 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    I used to watch "Monk" and there was no way I'd initially believe that Captain Stottlemeyer was the guy from Silence of the Lambs but wow, holy crap!

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago

    I never once viewed him as a trans person. He was just a fucked up psycho.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago

    I think he was based on ed gien who wasn’t trans but I do see how the film could be used against the trans community so that sucks

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago

    This is sadly a common trope in horror and slasher movies (which I do love as a genre). TV Tropes calls it a Fraudien Excuse.

    You’ve got Psycho as probably the most famous, Sleepaway Camp and sequels (not great representation), Insidius for some reason, Dressed to Kill, Fatal Games (this one was especially egregious and of the worst type of bigotry).

    I just watched Joe Bob’s Last Drive In Show where this season he did a section on Slasher movies and talked about this exact trope (See Intruder and In a Violent Nature).

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 child)

    I hate this sorta thought process. He was sick. He was a serial killer. He had serious mental issues. He was making a fucking skin suit. Nobody is assuming this was or wasn’t because of the trans-sexual implications. It’s no different than the belly aching about the albino bad guys in The Matrix. It was a character not social commentary about all trans people for fucks sake.

    Edit: There is nothing wrong with being trans. But if every bad guy in every movie or story is a straight white guy, the stories are gonna get kinda boring real quick.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago

    The issue is, the far right lacks creativity even in their bigotry. When they're looking for anecdotes to present them as a justification for their sweeping bigotry, they go as far as taking it from fiction. And Silence of the Lambs for trans people isn't the only case, where this happened. At least the other most famous case I can recall is the Hungarian far right using the story of Forrest Gump (with some other stuff likely being intertwined into it) to explain why there's a widespread of "intellectually disabled" people getting jobs they're unqualified for, with said "intellectual disability" weirdly being described similarly to autism, but usually some conspiracy theory about said person's "intellectual disability" being covered up by the parents through bribes and favors (sometimes sexual ones of course). While these stories fell out from the mainstream the moment Fidesz won, some people cling onto these, and at least one case, it likely got me denied a job.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    Never would have guessed that the guy from Monk was Buffalo Bill.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 days ago*

    Transphobes are dumb and if you need proof of that, the movie explicitly says Buffalo Bill isn't really trans, Starling says that trans people are passive and non-violent, and Lector agrees and says that Bill is something else altogether, and has likely been turned down by multiple hospitals for sex reassignment surgery because of that (the clear implication being that sex reassignment surgery is warranted in other cases, so it's not saying "trans people aren't real"). But transphobes see a dude tucking his dick and that's all they need to know, apparently 🤷‍

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  • 2 comments in c/transgender@piefed.blahaj.zone view that post
    [–] 5 points 8 months ago

    transmisogyny

    ....

    Mistransanthopy

    This movie was very good in many aspects. The added messaging is indeed unfortunate.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago

    I don't know if I can or want to blame the actor or writers etc. but this movie was a reason for why I wasn't able to accept myself being trans and definitely was a big reason why I stayed in the closet for a long time. Fuck this movie. It was cathartic snapping the DVD in half and throwing it in the trash

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