Tim.. suing everyone else wont make epic store a great place to buy games
Look to GOG for inspiration…
Tim.. suing everyone else wont make epic store a great place to buy games
Look to GOG for inspiration…
Has epic games developed anything like Proton? Valve isn't just a store.
What do you mean? Isn't Kratos dancing orange justice innovative enough?
They developed the Unreal engine. Not sure how “like Proton” you meant, but it’s used by lots of games and is quite a complex and well-regarded 3D engine.
Epic makes tons of money off licensing Unreal to developers and have since before their store was a thing.
Proton makes direct zero profit, though it does make Steam the best store for anyone on Linux.
Not sure why “direct profit” is important.
Proton is basic infrastructure for Steam Deck (which runs Linux). Valve has sold millions of units that I doubt would have been sold without Proton. There’s just a ton of games that will never be ported to native Linux.
Proton isn’t only Valve’s doing though. It’s heavily built on top of Wine which is a very mature open source project that has seen extensive leadership and contributions by CodeWeavers.
To quote an old comment of mine:
Meanwhile Steam is a feature rich platform with a bunch of features that regular C-suite types would never green light because they don’t have a direct ROI.
Direct profit is the main driving factor for decision making by C-suite types. EGS is a great example of this: it has the very bare bones of what constitutes an online store, you can see products and make purchases. Almost everything else is half assed and tacked on. It’s frankly amazing that a system like Steam exists when they could (and still could) enshittify really badly.
I don’t see how SteamOS is any different from iOS in this regard. Apple spends a ton of resources developing APIs to support all kinds of optional functionality that 3rd party developers can take advantage of. None of it earns any direct profit.
Apple directly makes money off iOS apps and in most of the world you can only buy via their store. On the other hand, I can and do buy games from GoG and run them just fine on my Steam deck and can still benefit from proton.
The only reason I buy most of my games from Steam is they make things even easier than buying from GoG.
Epic doesn’t do a single thing that doesn’t directly result in profits. Features are only added off they can derive income from them. Lawsuits are filed so they can take a larger percentage of profits. Even his twitter posts are mainly about him getting a larger cut, when he isn’t defending AI child porn.
Valve is very old school in their ‘keep improving your offering and it will work out’ way. Usually companies like that get bought out and their name run into the ground. It sadly happens in all industries, from Samsonite luggage to BioWare games and even service companies.
None of what I wrote was intended as a defence of Epic. I don’t like the company at all these days. The last game of theirs that I played was Gears of War. I loved the original Unreal but that was so long ago they might as well be a completely different company.
Anyway I think Valve has some kind of gamer reality distortion field going on. Gamers step up to defend it the way Apple fanboys defended Apple back in the Steve Jobs days. Have people forgotten that Gabe is a billionaire who just got another megayacht?
Proton is a really cool project and Valve has contributed a lot to it but it’s not charity. Valve profits a ton off Proton because it supports game sales on Steam. Linux and SteamDeck users buy a lot more games because of it, games they otherwise couldn’t even run.
The fact that Proton is open source was only partly Valve’s choice. The project is based on Wine which has an LGPL 2.1+ license, which requires Valve to release the source code to their modifications of Wine itself. The extra Proton parts don’t have to be open source, but in practice it creates a lot more work for Valve if they have to maintain their modifications as a fork rather than upstreaming as much as possible.
Sorry if I took it the wrong way. I can see some common ground in Steam vs others and Apple vs others since both focused on the user experience against really poor competition in that area, though Apple has a helluva stronger walled garden.
I do think fanboying a for profit company is silly, but a lot of this is also driven by hate for Epic's CEO. Epic's just another business that wants to make money and that alone isn't the reason people keep backing Steam on these threads. People shit on them because their CEO is an asshole who spends a lot of time bitching about other storefronts while their own still sucks 7 years after release despite the company raking in billions. Guy tries to act like he's some underdog despite Unreal engine having a greater stranglehold over game development.
It's very simple. Steam is not at all hostile to the user. It in fact has a bunch of qol features like the workshop or overlay, and don't get me started on the controller configurator. Steam is good software outside of the store. Epic is literally just the store. It's not complicated.
I find it very hostile compared to, for example, GOG which lets me download games DRM free and run them without running an app.
Steam is a battery hog and is designed to entice you to keep it running all the time. I hate leaving it running which means I don’t have access to most of my library.
What are you on about? DRM is up to the developer, and while steam does use some resources it's not enough to impact performance. And no, it's a launcher, you use it when playing steam games or non steam games with steam overlay and controller support. See steam has this whole overlay system with a shit load of features from note taking to community walkthroughs, robust multiplayer support through the friends system, a whole ass chat client, and did I mention the incredibly robust controller support with exceptional customization features? I literally have to run three or four different pieces of software just to do what steam can do out of the box. As for the DRM free bit I think you're thinking of gog's offline installers. Their licensing language is the same as steams. But yes gog makes an offline installer available for all their games, they're the only game in town that does though so they're more exception than rule. I dunno why you have a hate boner for steam but it's literally the only launcher with features that I use outside of open launcher -> open game. Hell it even has a frame limiter. I can use rewasd and ds4windows with rtss and still need to run another launcher, or I can just run steam which can do all that stuff itself. What aren't you getting about the fact that steam does a shit load of things beyond letting you buy and launch a game, and all those things are why people like steam?
It kills my laptop’s battery. It doesn’t matter if it’s not using much CPU, it keeps the CPU from sleeping and thus wastes a ton of battery. This is a well-known problem with software that uses its own timers and doesn’t optimize for battery life. Thus I do not want to leave Steam running all the time and so my experience is degraded.
When I want to play a Steam game that uses DRM I need to start up Steam, log in, do multi factor authentication, then wait for Steam to do all its updates, then restart while the patches are applied, then finally get to my library so I can start the game. It’s like a 10-15 minute process that is usually enough to kill my desire to play the game in the first place, so I don’t bother.
As for DRM, well none of the games on GOG have DRM. Some Steam games have DRM, some don’t. If Valve wanted to, they could decide to stop offering DRM and then they’d be DRM free too. If developers didn’t want that they’d have to take their games off Steam and lose those sales. This would incentivize more developers to go DRM free.
But they don’t. Thus Valve benefits from DRM and so they deserve blame for it, not just the developers. You don’t get to have your cake and eat it too.
Why do you need to leave it running? Why would you have it running if you're not playing a steam game or using its overlay and controller features? You're inventing problems that don't exist because you seem to not understand how to use the software. You open it when you want to play a game. If it starts updating stuff, you pause it or cancel it. Why would you blame steam for developers pushing updates in the first place? Turn off updates, boom problem solved. Like yeah, gog is better in their DRM stance but galaxy is not great software, and updates are important for modern games that ship largely broken and unoptimized, and the gog offline installers do not make updating easy. You're holding a fork and complaining that it makes for a shitty knife, like yeah bud, you're using it wrong.
I explained why it needs to be left running: because opening it is too much of a hassle to even bother with. Thus I don’t, and I don’t plan to open it any time soon.
GOG Galaxy is a nonsequitur. I’ve never installed it and it’s never been required to download or play any game. I use GOG’s website to buy and download games. Galaxy might as well not exist and I’m fine with that.
I didn't know epic games developed that.
Wine was never developed by Epic, as far as I know. Wikipedia showed nothing about Epic, not a word.
I think they misspelled "whine".
That, or they're saying Proton isn't Valve's work alone and that it's heavily based on WINE. I'm not sure if that's true, but it's another way to read that comment.
I never said epic made wine.
Wine is like 99% of proton. Historically it was mostly sposored by Collabora and I think they were doing it so they clould run some windows programs on mac (my memory is fuzzy, was a long time ago).
Valve came later. There were already out-of-tree patches speciffically for games. The wine team didn't put those in because they are hacks while wines aim is 100% compatibility with windows.
As those patches grew, stuff like wine-staging emerged that would massage those patches into what the wine project would accept. And even later proton was born (i think from some guys repo, i think valve hired him).
If you want to attribute something to valve, then ACO is a better option. It's amazing.
I'm just a bit annoyed that nobody praises wine while everybody speaks like it was all valve.
No instead epic charges 12%, and if you use unreal engine but don't sell on egs they get a 5% royalty fee on all your sales. Sure those number are lower but egs isn't out here "empowering" devs
Epic would charge Steam's fees if they had Steam's marketshare.
Everyone thinking they care about creators or customers is a fucking moron.
Are they close to feature parity with Steam yet? Like after a quick search of it looks like they added cloud saves but that took years.
Not even close. Plus, it's not just about feature parity. It's also about ease of use. EGS is still shit as of 2 months ago.
Epic would charge Steam’s fees if they had Steam’s marketshare.
while at the same time providing worse service.
Ever noticed the difference between Epic checkout vs Steam checkout?
And that is the part one would want to make the best, because that's what gets the money in.
Out of all the services that Valve offers, you decided to compare their checkout page?
Yes, because the checkout page gets revenue ⇒ the bottom line.
The points you say are the things Valve is doing extra to provide value to the customer.
The point I am saying, is the first thing that anyone working for money needs to care about.
steampowered checkout page:
Epic checkout page:
if you use unreal engine but don’t sell on egs they get a 5% royalty fee on all your sales.
Sounds like abusing market power.
is that Valve's policies and position as the leading distribution service in PC gaming means publishers are effectively blocked from selling games and add-ons at lower prices on competing stores
I still don't get this. As far as I can find, Steam doesn't allow steam keys to be sold cheaper elsewhere, but they don't bother with prices of games in other stores.
And doesn't Epic have a bunch of games exclusive to their store?
I still don't get this. As far as I can find, Steam doesn't allow steam keys to be sold cheaper elsewhere, but they don't bother with prices of games in other stores.
This is tricky. Officially Valve doesn't have any rules about non-Steam game prices on other stores. Unofficially evidence has been put forward by way of emails between developers and Valve that seem to show that Valve unofficially requires price parity with other stores and will punish games that offer lower prices elsewhere.
The charitable interpretation is that their policies are worded confusingly and some of their agents are misinterpreting the rule requiring Steam key prices to be uniform as applying to non-Steam keys. The uncharitable interpretation is that Valve knows such a policy would get them in hot water with anti-monopoly laws and so they're careful to make sure it stays an unofficial policy.
That's... Weird, given I usually get games on sale from Humble if I'm getting them on steam. Might just be full price?
Steam, and Epic, both have exclusives. Steam is more incidental (some devs just don't bother releasing elsewhere), while Epic had a deal going on for devs that released exclusively on Epic for the first 6 months of the game's life. Don't remember what the deal was, but it was a marketing thing to try and get people over to Epic. After the 6 months was up most devs also released to Steam.
Is that true? I've seen devs list their games off steam for steamprice -30%. Often you can go to a devs website and buy the game $10 cheaper. However I still buy it via steam because i feel like i'll forget about the game if its just a key in my email.
If I'm remembering correctly, price parity only applies to keys sold off platform, rather than the game itself because they don't profit from the keys being generated.
Tim Sweeney can gargle my ballsack
I was almost forgetting Tim's whole deal seems to be antagonizing more successful companies than his.
He wants access to massive user bases for fortnite without having to pay anything to the platforms. That's why he's so intent on attacking Steam, Apple and Google. Steam would be a massive increase in revenue even with a 30% cut going to steam for epic, but mutual benefit isn't in vogue at the moment.
But Epic is super successful. Its Unreal Engine has almost the entire gaming landscape in a stranglehold and is making big gains in film productions.
Fortnite is one of the most successful games on Earth and EGS exclusive Rocket League recently achieved one million concurrent players.
I mean Epic the storefront, not the umbrella company, as the "company" in my original quote. If we are to be pedantic, there is also Epic the game publisher.
Also Rocket League was bought by EGS and turned exclusive after it already had a following, so the numbers for it seem kinda artificial. Though that and Fortnite would also fall in the publisher branch from what I understand.
The storefront itself is seldom news-worth, except for the freebies and that time they added a shopping cart with a few years of delay. And their freebies strategy seems to not be working out as EGS has yet to see a profit from some recent news.
Then comes Tim, that if I had to guess, is trying to dig any resentments people have with Steam to try to bring its userbase to EGS.
Also Rocket League was bought by EGS and turned exclusive after it already had a following
Doesn't change that the cited growth happened recently which is years after the takeover.
Being obviously self-interested doesn’t make him wrong about app store monopolies, whether Apple, Google, or Valve.
I would use other words, but I don’t think you are actually interested in understanding market power, coercion, or network effects. It is a little tricky, but if you’re not just shitposting in bad faith, Lina Khan has a great paper on digital platform monopolies and Matt Stoller has a good podcast on Valvle’s monopoly in particular. Or does Matt Stoller also not understand what a monopoly is, according to you?
Appeal to expertise is not an appeal to authority. Otherwise we could never cite scientists, epidemiologists, or other experts. You might be interested in the fallacy of equivocation.
Isn't Tim the guy that advocates for pedophelia through AI generation?
And Hitler was a vegetarian, but that tells us literally nothing about whether we should abuse animals in factory farms
Sure, but I think wanting to fuck children does kind of paint a vivid picture about your general moral character in a way your dietary preferences might not.
Hitler actually did both. Several of his "girlfriends" were 14 when they met.
He also managed to become the guardian of his 14 year old niece at one point.
I feel like this isn’t a reciprocal thing though. “Guy does good thing” /=/ “You shouldn’t question his judgement/his other ideas are also good. ” feels fair
However
“Guy does bad thing” = “You should question his judgement/his other ideas tend to also be bad” also feels fair
Stop, stop, I already have so many reasons to hate him, I don't need more.
The only reason I had an epic account was for their free giveaway. And now that I’ve switched to bazzite, and considering their poor Linux support, I’m inclined to just cut bait on them.
Has Tim Sweeney shown up in the Epstein files yet or are we still waiting?
Steam is the last company that has held out against enshittification.
It feels like all the other corpos are mad and want to sue Valve to force them into enshittification.
I'm all for holding companies accountable - when legal pressure forced Valve into creating a return policy, I was happy for that. But this is a $900 Million nothing burger imo. Publishers are mad they can't get the exposure and sales numbers on a cheaper platform. Cheaper platforms are mad that they still can't get people to switch to them by significantly under-cutting Steam. That's (publishers) customers mad they have to pay a 'premium' (basically the 'market rate' for the service before epic decided to start under-cutting btw) for a better service and the competition mad that a LOT of (publishers) customers are willing to pay that 'premium'.
Their store UI could be better, searching the database by conditions and clearly seeing why something isn't available in your region\country\demographic would be good.
But at the same time it's good enough for me to even be thinking about such conveniences.
Also I've remembered recently my dad saying some 6 years ago that nobody makes convenient UIs because it's bad for commerce. A UI filled with suffering allows you to charge for directed solutions. And if a UI isn't filled with suffering, there must be something else. Like Telegram and VK which are convenient to use (compared to WhatsApp and Facebook and ...), but are Russian special services' honeypots.
Convenience is a weapon. And a very expensive one, if Steam store's UI were more convenient, the load on servers would probably be 10x what it is, for a similar structure of purchases, except probably harder to direct.
Lol
Greenlight Early access Gambling economy Microtransactions Segmenting games to be sold as parts.
Fuck off with that shit.
Meanwhile places like EA are a bastion of virtue?
Well... duh. The guy runs a competing storefront who's only claims to fame are:
... that's it, that's all the reasons to use Epic, unless you want to play Fortnite or participate in an Early Access period where they chose Epic to reduce the overwhelming amount of feedback like Hades.
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