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[–] 124 points 9 months ago* (42 children)

I always say this when a question like this comes up:

Find a repair person for what you're looking to buy and ask them which brands and models last the longest and are easiest to get parts for and repair in your country. They are the people that actually know the answer.

Good quality shit still exists, you just need to pay for it, and if you remember the Terry Pratchett boots story, you'll know paying more up front is going to save you money in the long run

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  • [–] 25 points 9 months ago (13 children)

    Yeah people don't realize that appliances were a LOT more expensive back then too, especially as a proportion of income. A washer dryer set in 1959 cost $380, at a time when the median household income was only $5,400. That means to buy a washer dryer set, they would have to spend 7% of their pre-tax income. Currently, the cheapest washer dryer set will set you back $1300, and the median household income is $83,000, so it's about 1.5% of the annual household income. If you're willing to pay what people were proportionally willing to pay in 1959, you can still buy a washer dryer set that will last a lifetime. Most people just aren't.

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  • [–] 10 points 9 months ago (8 children)

    If you’re willing to pay what people were proportionally willing to pay in 1959, you can still buy a washer dryer set that will last a lifetime

    If only that was true. It isn't.

    The rest is spot on.

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  • [–] 20 points 9 months ago

    It actually is true. Sure the most expensive Maytag is basically the same as the least expensive one with extra computers on it, but if you look at brands like Speed Queen they're built to last with simple repairable parts. If you haven't been to a Laundromat, you've probably never heard of them, but they are the Queen of laundromat equipment. Why? Because Laundromats lose money when their shit isn't working and they need rugged equipment that will work for a long time and that they're able to do maintenance on. When looking at household goods where it seems like you can't buy good stuff at any price anymore, look at what the pros are using. They will get what they need and someone will be making it for them.

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  • [–] 12 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    It absolutely is. Buy a Speed Queen.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    Don't just go by the price tag though, because some of the expensive shit is actually cheap but they figured they'd sell more if they give it a premium price (and maybe some chrome-finnished plastic parts to make it look more premium).

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  • [–] 9 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    I'm not going by the price tag, I'm going by the fact that Speed Queen is literally the only consumer washing machine brand whose machines you can explicitly use in a commercial setting and it won't void the warranty, per the bond in the back of the manual.

    What a Speed Queen washer costs now is roughly what a quality Kenmore or Whirlpool washing machine cost in the 1980s, once you adjust for inflation.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    On yeah, that wasn't meant in response to the Speed Queen recommendation but for the "if you want good, expect to pay more" and just wanted to point out that it doesn't mean "pay more and you get good".

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  • [–] 11 points 9 months ago

    Often times, your only option to cater to that is to go after a product targeted for commercial clients instead of consumer. Washer/Dryer targeted at laundromats. Kitchen equipment for restauraunts. The vendors are dealing with clients that are both more demanding, have the resources to get warranty promises fulfilled, and that have much more experience to quickly recognize a vendor faliing them. You don't need a large business concern's stuff to break in a year to get them buying again, but if their stuff does tend to break in a year or two your company won't be considered for future purchases.

    Commercial clients are about the only ones that have a chance of being on equal footing with vendors, the consumer market is so easily snowed by marketing that companies get away with being crap there all the time (worst comes to worst, just pack up your tarnished brand and relaunch with a new, exciting brand, same crap products but consumers will eat it up)

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    you can still buy a washer dryer set that will last a lifetime.

    What brand? Because I've researched Speed Queen extensively and that's not the answer. (They now all have Chinese manufactured water pumps with Mexican control boards that use the same components as Samsung.)

    I just watched the Ben's Appliances teardown.

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Can you really, though? If you can tell me where those are available now (not just expensive, but proven lifetime quality), I would really like to know.

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  • [+] 12 points 9 months ago (12 children)
  • [–] 26 points 9 months ago (8 children)

    I got my wife's broken 4K monitor repaired for the grand cost of £3.50 a few weeks ago.

    They were in the market for replacing it anyway because it's ten years old, but when it wouldn't turn on it that pushed their decision. Kinda pissed me off, because I was going to get it when the replacement arrived. So I figured it was already fucked, so it wouldn't hurt to see if it could be repaired.

    My boss at work trained as an electrician in the Army, so we opened it, where he immediately clocked a capacitor that was slightly expanded. A multimeter reading confirmed it, so I ordered a replacement. 8p, but I had to buy a pack of five. Add the postage and it came to £3.50.

    The repair took 10 minutes, and now I'm the proud owner of a 28" 4K AOC.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (6 children)

    I've done similar to a part on my dryer's control board, and a GPU's vram. In both cases, there was no diagnostic needed because the part showed some kind of physical damage. You would be surprised how often things can be fixed for 1% the cost of replacing.

    You got it correct there. If it's junk, open it up, and take a look. It might be obvious. Given the rising cost of stuff like GPUs, this could become more relevant.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    I had a mouse chew through the ignition wire on the ignitor on my propane furnace, which blew the board out. It cost me like 400 to do it myself after a repair guy just charged 100 to diagnose it then help3ed me over text swapping everything out. Could have been 2000 for an official repair company and way more for a new one.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago* (1 child)

    Oh that's a good one. I had a coal stove that had an idle timer (mechanical clock) to keep the fire going when the thermostat wasn't calling for heat. It stopped working and the factory said they don't make them anymore, but I could special order a thirty party replacement for $250. I replaced it with an Arduino, a relay shield and a 20 line program for < $10. If I was more electrically inclined, I could have powered it from the stove's power. Instead, there is a USB cord sticking out the back =]

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    I could stand to have a look at my washer/drier. The washer works perfectly well, but the drier does nothing at all. It runs, but doesn't dry. It came with the house and they're usually expensive to run, so I've never really worried about it. But I live in England, where rain is our default mode, so it's a pain to have washing up on racks in the house all the time.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago*

    Does it get hot at all? The heating element is just a coil of metal that can break. They can break easily if you put clothes in it that are too wet (like dripping). Once it breaks, it severs the current, so no heat. There should also be a fuse right next to it. These are all simple continuity checks if you have a meter.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago

    This is why I bought Maytag for an appliance... Then 4 years into its 10 "warranty", I learned that it only covers things with pretty much no chance of breaking during that time and the actual functional bits aren't covered, like the water pump (washers don't work too good if the water doesn't go anywhere).

    And the repair cost about as much as I paid for it.

    Companies buying companies with stellar reputations and then ride that reputation for every cent it's worth into the ground... Gotta love capitalism, right?

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago

    Partly because they'll know which ones they see least and/or have an easiest time with, but also that the perfect unbreakable machine doesn't exist; accidents & "acts of god" (as in the insurance term) happen even to the best built appliances. E.g. there're not many control boards that will survive a lightning strike.

    Finally they will know other repair people and will talk shop with them from time to time, not least of all because they also need to buy appliances, and they know this same rule.

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  • [–] 12 points 9 months ago (6 children)

    This doesn't work though because they're not analysts. The brands they see broken the most are simply the top selling or top used brands by volume. I think the most repaired washing machine is Speed Queen or something - a commercial brand that based on a nieve read of the number is constantly breaking... except those things run constantly at laundromats, so are actually super reliable!

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  • [–] 11 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    It's not about what they repair the most, it's about their knowledge, experience, and expertise in a niche. Even if they repair cheap household crap frequently, they may also make repairs on industrial equipment that's been in use for decades. They'd understand the differences between various products and companies, differences that a layperson wouldn't have experience with. They may not be analysts, but they'll know which models have expensive parts you'd need to ship from overseas, vs which models could be repaired with a trip to your local hardware store. That's the information that makes them a valuable resource.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    Yep, very true. Ask them what they buy for their house. They know what brands and models are crap, and how they've changed over time.

    My brother-in-law has been a county car mechanic for decades. He repairs all kinds of county vehicles - cop cars, construction vehicles, anything the county buys. He can tell you which years of specific vehicles are good and which ones are garbage. Of course he only knows the US brands that the county buys but I wouldn't buy a Ford or Chevy without talking to him. He's always going on about how certain years are known for transmission problems or issues with electrical, etc.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

    I mean yeah, they understand what breaks, but without crunching the numbers they won't know much of anything useful about failure rates. Anecdotal data is still anecdotal even at larger volumes until you properly analyst it.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

    Although that is absolutely true, I'm not sure how it's relevant to knowing what's been easy to work on or how to purchase replacement parts.

    But I could see the reasoning if you're taking the question of "which brands and models last the longest" to have an objective answer. In this case, I'd probably look up the suggested brands myself before immediately taking anyone's word for it. A repair person could be a good jumping off point, but you're right that hard data is crucial. "Trust, but verify."

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    I found this to be true for IT help desk. At the time I was doing this we saw a ton of Dell laptops that needed various repairs, and fewer HP laptops. However, we had no idea what the total breakdown was on campus between Dell and HP laptops.

    Also, the Dell laptops we could almost always repair easily, they just needed a new hard drive or a new keyboard or something that was easily replaced. The HP laptops always seemed to need a much more complicated repair like a new motherboard or had to be sent back to HP.

    So a naive perspective on this would be to say that we were constantly fixing Dell laptops, therefore those were crap. But we didn't have the full picture and the overall reliability determination needs to include both failure rates and ease of repair.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    The main problem with Dell is they like to use non-standard parts so you have to buy the replacements from them. Though I think they don't do it as much as they used to.

    I had to completely replace so many odd shaped Dells during the bad cap era just because we couldn't get the parts.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago

    When my oven element died (according to my girlfriend made a huge light then that's it, repair guy said it basically welded) and we had a guy in to check it out he sent some recommendations of brands to purchase based on his fixing (actually had a list ready so it had some random don't get their dryers but rest is okay for that brand) since it t blew the circuit board too. Though that was only a few months ago so hopefully it'll work out. I imagine many repair people are willing to let you know their experiences though may want a general place than say specific brand repair ones.

    It was amusing how apologetic he was that he couldn't fix it, I always assume that's a possibility but was still over $100 to get him there and basically lost money, if you were knowledgeable or prescient. I imagine others aren't so calm when they hear that.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Even the expensiver stuff is garbage now.

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  • [–] 18 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 child)

    You have to look in a different direction.

    High end residential is more features and bullshit. It's fragile.

    You want commercial/industrial like a speed queen. Ugly as shit. No AI. No Wifi. Not even an LCD. Just an analog dial.

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    [–] 186 points 9 months ago (15 children)

    Except they're terribly inefficient and use shit like freon

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  • [–] 129 points 9 months ago (12 children)

    Also, a number of them will still fail quickly. Survivorship bias.

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  • [–] 59 points 9 months ago* (10 children)

    Or you'll create something that is genuinely better with good longevity and then discover you'll have next to no sales growth since once somebody buys it, they never need to replace it.

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  • [–] 98 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    You know if I created a buisness myself and had no shareholders demanding quarterly profit increases, that would be okay.

    If it made 1 million in profit after 10 years and then needed to be shuttered that's fine by me.

    I imagine this would make an individual quite wealthy for their lifetime. We just think it's unviable because we've been tricked into believing that a buisness must grow forever to be successful

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, a million over 10 years equates to about 80,000 a year over those 10 years which is the median household income in the US. Far from wealthy and would still require you to work after that 10 years.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

    Is that the median? Most people I know are poor as hell I guess.

    That would be just my income. Adding in my spouses would make it above median. I suppose wether or not you think that qualifies as wealthy is up to you, I know to me with my lifestyle I could really turn that into a strong foundation.

    Seriously my income going up to 80k and my spouse's being the same would be amazing. We could pay off student loans, replace my clunker of a car, get the larger house we've wanted (mortgage of course but so much easier to save the down payment), finally get the solar panel setup I want, pad out the retirement account, that's just a lot of extra income over the time. Keeping my lifestyle the same all doable with that kind of increase in income.

    Also never said I'd never have to work again. You could hand me 1 million today, and I think we both know that is not enough to live the rest of our lives on. Still a life altering amount of money.

    And I guess this all comes down to.what we mean by "profit". That's after all buisness expenses, but I suppose I didn't think in this hypothetical company if I'd be paying myself a wage or not.

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  • [–] 14 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Hmmm, a state run industry in communist east Berlin that failed in 1990. It's almost as if their business hit a wall when they couldn't expand their market through exports. Surely there couldn't have been any world changing events happening in that town in the latter days of 1989 that might have played a larger role in the demise of a state run business.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago

    If the article in the Wiki is true, their problems with expansion were because no one wanted to resell their product. It's not even a problem with actual customers, and there probably was enough people who would buy to make growth viable for much longer

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  • [–] -1 points 9 months ago

    Or you could drop your red-scared shades and read the article again: those glasses were made to last, hence were of no interest for those who expected them to break easily in order to sell more.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago

    CorningWare had a similar problem with their plates. We’re still using our parents old bowls and plates from the 80s. The stuff we got as wedding presents was mostly chipped or broken before our 10th anniversary.

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  • [–] 27 points 9 months ago (20 children)

    These appliances would cost similar to 60 years ago? You’ll be spending 2-3 months salary on a washing machine or television. We got used to cheap and poor quality - poor repairability devices in the consumer economy.

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  • [–] 19 points 9 months ago (19 children)

    Yeah, the bummer is that you can pay that much for appliances, but you are paying for extra features, NOT for extra durability and repairability. They simply don't make them like that anymore.

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  • [–] 13 points 9 months ago (16 children)

    Linus and Luke from LTT were talking about this the other day, how you can spend like 20-30 grand on a sub-zero or some other fancy brand fridge, and it will last 50 years like appliances used to. But when you sell your house eventually it will add NO value, the buyer is just going to see "great, the house comes with a fridge like it's supposed to". So unless you plan to take the fridge with you from house to house and go through the trouble of replacing it with something normal when you do then the economics just don't work for most people anymore.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago* (2 children)

    I live in a city below sea level and almost every house has foundation issues. At one point I was living in a house that was over 120 years old. It had been through a fire, had no central support beam, and every time the roof had previously been repaired, instead of removing the old one, a new one was just slapped on top, so there were 3 total roofs. It was kind of a miracle (and probably only because of old style lattice work in the frame) that it never collapsed. Anyway, the foundation in that house was beyond fucked to say the least.

    Almost the whole time we lived there we kept having problems with our washer over and over. Our landlord would hire a repairman to fix it, they were never quite sure what was wrong, but they would fiddle around with it until they got it working, then a week later it would just stop working again. Eventually our landlord got so fed up they just got rid of the washer and dryer and bought a brand new really fancy stackable washer and dryer set. They were so pissed when not even a week later we started having the same issue.

    Eventually we got a repairman out who figured out the problem. The laundry room was an addition that had been a back porch at one point in history so it was even more janky than the rest of the house. The foundation in that room had become so fucked, it was throwing off the sensors all newer washers have. The landlord had to sell the almost brand new washer, and then go out and find a 20+ year old washer to place next to our fancy dryer.

    Anyway, the point is, I could see the value in vintage appliances being included in houses where the age of the home itself may interfere with newer technology.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    oh shit this is FASCINATING. i'm glad you had a landlord that at least dealt with the problem instead of blaming you after the first couple times.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago

    I listened to that segment. If you're in a position to do so, it makes sense to buy for life and not have to deal with break downs/ ewaste imo. That's a privileged position to be in though

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    Honestly, I don't think not having a fridge is that big of a deal. If someone actually wants the house they will haggle you down for the cost of a fridge and I would be totally fine with that. Hey, I could have bought a $900 fridge and put it in here, I will give you $900 out of the sell. If you don't want a $900 fridge you can take that money and put it to the fridge you do want.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    Even then you'd be dealing with the hassle of moving a heavy, expensive appliance to a new home.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (6 children)

    How often are you planning on selling a house though? Don't you plan to live in it forever?

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    I think it depends, but most people don't buy a house planning to live in it forever anymore. More likely you upgrade from renting to owning a small apartment or condo, then you move into a starter home, maybe you get married and sell your home because your partner has a home, and then you decide to have kids and the starter home isn't really big enough anymore, then you get a new job in another city, etc.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Interesting. In my country most people rent so typically if you can afford to buy or build a house you plan to live in there until you die. Sure sometimes circumstances change but the concept of owninc a starter home is completely alien to me.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

    In the US it varies a lot. Some places, like NYC or DC you might rent forever and that's perfectly common. Other places which are not as urban focused, think medium cities that are big but not super dense, you could choose to live down town and rent or buy apartments or you could live in the suburbs or rural country. Some people live in small cities far from any major city and options to rent apartments are rare, you are more likely to rent a small house, live in a mobile home, or you own a house of varying quality.

    Here is an example: Let's say you live in Verdigris Oklahoma, outside of Tulsa. Here is a mobile home for $76k with 112 m^2. Here is a home for $195k with 938 m^2 land and 130 m^2 living space. Median income for Tulsa is $41k with married households having a median income of $99k. Tulsa is a 20 minute drive from Verdigris.

    If you then get a job offer in Oklahoma City making more money, Oklahoma City has a median income of $67k with family median incomes being $83k (let's assume your family is beating the median since you're moving for this job). Here are a few houses that are in or near Oklahoma City 1 2 3 3 4

    Here's another example. Maybe you have a job on the west side of Richmond Virginia. Richmond has a median income of $64k but you live in Chesterfield Virginia maybe in this town home and have a 15 min commute to work. You get a new job on the north side of Richmond and you're getting married soon. You decide to sell your place, upgrade, and move closer to your new work so you buy this place.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago*

    I'm on my 3rd home. The first I lived in for 10 years, then sold it when I moved to a different state. The 2nd one, in the new state, I lived in for 2 years before I realized the HOA was shady as hell and it was likely that all the owners were going to be on the hook for paying to replace all the storm drains and roads. I've been in the current house for 6 years.

    I see at least 1 more in the future to escape the hell hole that is NC.

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  • [–] 92 points 9 months ago (6 children)

    just a reminder that survivorship bias is a huge thing. There have been shitty products from back then too. Many. We just don't see them now, because only the few good products have survived. The same happens today.

    Its not all planned obsolescence and not all obsolescence is bad. Imagine having a 40 year old fridge that doesn't cool shit and burn 3 times the energy.

    2 tips for good quality products now: end capitalism and spend money on the right products (not just convenience) and the right people to repair them.

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  • [–] 15 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    There have been shitty products from back then too. Many. We just don't see them now, because only the few good products have survived.

    So we built on that knowledge and kept making the good ones as they were and didn't see how cheap we could make them right? ..right?

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  • [–] 9 points 9 months ago

    It's more complicated than that. It's literally that sometimes two of the exact same item last for radically different times. It's not a different design or manufacturing process, just an amorphous series of random factors lining up we call luck.

    Mean time between failures is something they do actually measure in manufacturing, and you see interesting results like what hard drive manufacturers do to increase reliability: stress test the drives until the ones destined to fail early fail, and then sell the others.

    There are things that can increase reliability, but a lot of the things that make the extreme outliers are just random, and no one documents what they were because they didn't know it was going not have an effect, good or bad.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 child)

    Well, sometimes, actually, yes. Unfortunately you have to do the research to figure out if anyone does it right and the people doing it wrong tend to out-marketing spend the good ones.

    For example, house came with a garbage disposal. Within 5 years it rusted through, because why would you bother with stainless steel in something that is constantly soaked with water? Did research, didn't have to spend too much more to get one actually made using stainless steel and that one is still going 15 years later.

    Of course sometimes you just don't have options. Like if you want a microwave, it doesn't matter what microwave you get from what brand, all of them are just cosmetic variants/brands applied to the exact same microwave made by one company in China.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago

    I remember a video of Linus from LTT going to check out the Sennheiser factory and their high end electro static ($ 19,000 at the time) headset had like a 40% quality fail. Because only the best would be branded as their high end devices.

    Most of the ones that didn't pass were still absolutely fine, just not hitting all the frequencies correctly so they went in the $8000 bin.

    Exact same product just some were slightly less performing but still more than useful as a lesser quality product.

    Which iirc Linus commented on after initial surprise to see such a high failure rate.

    Now that's a good brand that cares about quality, lesser manufacturers.....

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  • [–] 22 points 9 months ago

    Yes and no. Yes they should build those old patents in a general sense. No they should not follow those patents exactly because they contained things like asbestos and lead.

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  • [–] 19 points 9 months ago (4 children)
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