European banking is a really sad state of affairs : Europe@europe.pub

European banking is a really sad state of affairs (fedia.io)

submitted 9 months ago by atro_city@fedia.io to c/Europe@europe.pub

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Moving away: close your bank account, you must live in the country to have a bank account here.

Moving to: you must open a bank account here, we don't accept foreign IBANs

Using a banking application: you must have US ~~tech~~ spyware on your phone, otherwise we don't consider it secure.

We need a European federation. I want to be able to move somewhere with my European bank account, get paid by European employer, pay with my European money using a European payment system without having to tell some other non-European country all about it.

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[–] Hotznplotzn@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 9 months ago (9 children)

I am not sure what the problem is, but if you are a legal resident in an EU country you are entitled to open a "basic payment account". Banks cannot refuse your application for a basic payment account just because you don't live in the country where the bank is established.

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[–] atro_city@fedia.io [S] -4 points 9 months ago (8 children)

Do you think all banks follow the rules? And if they don't, do you think I, as a lone citizen, have the resources to fight a bank?

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[–] Hotznplotzn@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 9 months ago (6 children)

I don't know where you are, but you may think to contact the consumer protection agency in the country. I fairly believe all banks follow this rule.

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[–] atro_city@fedia.io [S] 2 points 9 months ago* (5 children)

I already have and am now more than a year into a process against a bank here with no end in sight. If I were to fight against all banks, it would take me a life time. There are many banks I have complained to but the most you can get most of the time is a tired "it's for security", "it's for compliance", "we do our best to serve our customers but we cannot serve the needs of everybody", and so on. Believe me when I say, it's far from "all" banks that follow the rule.

Here's an example from France "La Banque Postale"

Pour commencer, pouvez-vous nous confirmer que :

• Vous êtes majeur capable • Vous êtes résident fiscal français sans obligation fiscale dans un autre pays

which translate to

To begin, could you please confirm that:

You are a legal adult with full capacity

You are a French tax resident with no tax obligations in another country"

The next one in the search results was "Credit Agricole". To open a bank account, you need to enter your postal code and it only accepts French post codes.

Did the same with German banks, Spanish, even Slovak banks. If you're outside of the country, chances are you cannot open a bank account. That's the problem I have with being in the European Union and not in the European Federation or European Republic.

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[–] VisionScout@lemmy.wtf 2 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (4 children)

You are a French tax resident with no tax obligations in another country"

I assume this is the problem, right? You will only became a tax resident when you live 180 days in the country (check the number of days). This means that in the near future they will ask you to prove that you are tax resident.

If you check the documents to open an account you just need:

une pièce d'identité en cours de validité (Eng: a valid identity document)
un justificatif de domicile récent (Eng: proof of recent domicile)
les derniers justificatifs de revenus pourront vous être demandés. (Eng: You may be asked for the latest income receipts.)

https://www.labanquepostale.fr/particulier/comptes-et-cartes/ouvrir-un-compte/pieces-justificatives.html

I moved between EU countries and between EUR and non-EUR, and even because of business had to go to another country for opening an account (without even had lived there) and never had troubles.

Anyway as an immigrant/expat it's always better to do this kind of stuff in person, as the online templates are usually for the most common client - the natives.

The next one in the search results was “Credit Agricole”. To open a bank account, you need to enter your postal code

Off course, to where do you want for them to send the letters?

and it only accepts French post codes.

Again, go to the physical location and they will let you open. I have done that (not with those banks and not in france).

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[–] atro_city@fedia.io [S] 1 point 9 months ago (3 children)

You're missing the point: I don't live in France! I am a legal EU resident in another country and cannot open an account in France, Germany, and many other countries. That's the problem.

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[–] VisionScout@lemmy.wtf 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

Yes you can. Did you tried calling or sending and email asking how to proceed? Just go there physically, it's the easiest way.

Years ago you could open account in commerzbank in germany via registered letter. I did it and i never lived in germany. I had some problems with the slow mail company... But that's another story.

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[–] atro_city@fedia.io [S] -1 points 9 months ago* (1 child)

Is it impossible for you to accept that we have different experiences? I called my bank after moving and they told me my bank account will be closed if when I formally change my address. Another bank told me I need to pay an extra fee for creating a bank account from abroad.

And your suggestion to "just go there physically"... am I made of gold? You think I can just buy a plane ticket, fly across the continent just to create a bank account? Are you going to tell me to buy a second home close to the bank too?

It's like your argument is "well, it worked for me, so nobody else can have problems". It's like the child playing hide and seek, closing their eyes and thinking nobody can see them that hasn't grasped the concept that other entities with different experiences exist. What are you? French?

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[–] VisionScout@lemmy.wtf 1 point 9 months ago

You wrote:

I am a legal EU resident in another country and cannot open an account in France, Germany, and many other countries. That’s the problem.

Which is completely false. It's not as easy as if you are a resident but it's not impossible.

Is it impossible for you to accept that we have different experiences?

No, and it's totally fine we have different experiences, but don't say it's impossible since that's not the case. That was my point.

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[–] Akasazh@lemmy.world 2 points 9 months ago

You don't fight the bank, you just follow the correct procedure and they will comply.

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[–] VisionScout@lemmy.wtf 7 points 9 months ago (2 children)

I moved between countries and it was very easy. Went to the bank (physical location) and showed my id, and the rent contract (so i could prove my address). They opened the bank account immediately.

Moving away: close your bank account, you must live in the country to have a bank account here.

I never encountered a bank that did this. I'm pretty sure this is illegal.

Moving to: you must open a bank account here, we don’t accept foreign IBANs

Again, this is false.

The app thingy is true unfortunately.

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[–] atro_city@fedia.io [S] 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

Good to know my experience is false. I guess it didn't happen if you say so. Thank you for proving me wrong.

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[–] VisionScout@lemmy.wtf 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

I'd question that reading.

EDIT: Since i have a bit of free time.

Opening bank accounts in another country

Access to bank accounts

The law says that consumers legally resident in the European Union (EU) have the right to open a payment account with basic features in any EU Member State. However, a person wishing to open such a bank account should always comply with EU anti-money laundering rules.
A basic bank account includes various services such as cash withdrawals at a bank counter or cash machines and the execution of payment transactions such as direct debits or credit transfers within the EU.

From https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/opening-switching-bank-accounts-and-information-on-fees.html

Or:

You may want or need to open a bank account in your home country or in another EU country.

If you are legally resident in an EU country you are entitled to open a "basic payment account". Banks cannot refuse your application for a basic payment account just because you don't live in the country where the bank is established.

from https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/financial-products-and-services/bank-accounts-eu/index_en.htm

rejecting foreign IBANs

The Commission agrees that refusing Single Euro Payments Area (SEPA) cross border direct debits is a breach of the SEPA Regulation[1]. National competent authorities designated under Article 10 of the regulation are primarily responsible for addressing this practice also known as International Bank Account Number (IBAN) discrimination. [...]

From https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2020-005659-ASW_EN.html

And:

National accounts used for credit transfers and direct debits within each SEPA member country should also be accessible throughout the EU. This is known as reachability. The same rules apply to both national and cross-border operations. Payment systems should be interoperable with each other. The regulation requires credit transfers and direct debit transactions to meet certain conditions, including:

the use of international bank account numbers (IBANs), bank identifier codes (BICs) and a financial messaging standard for all payments in euro;
the right of payers to issue specific instructions, such as the amount and frequency of a direct debit.

From https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/single-euro-payments-area-regulation.html

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[–] Sepia@mander.xyz 6 points 9 months ago (1 child)

Could you please elaborate what the exact problem is? I never heard about such problem, but I am not sure whether I understand what the issue is here.

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[–] atro_city@fedia.io [S] 2 points 9 months ago

Have you moved countries within Europe? Then the problems mentioned above are what you can encounter.

And even if you haven't moved, try using non-US tech with your bank. Many banking application require you to either have a crApple device or a Google device with their spyware on it. Buying a phone without Google spyware (here's a big list of banks and their degoogled phone support).

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[–] _Nico198X_@europe.pub 5 points 9 months ago (7 children)

it's also illegal to reject an IBAN from another EU state.

you can also try a virtual bank: n26, bunq, revolut, and even wise.

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[–] atro_city@fedia.io [S] -2 points 9 months ago (6 children)

N26 requires Google spyware, Revolut too, and I think Wise too. Some banks will further cancel joint / shared bank accounts when one partner moves to another country (even temporarily). And some banks are mobile only, meaning that while they may work for some time without US tech, they may suddenly change their mind, not tell you, and you'll find yourself locked out of your bank account or their payment methods.

And whether things are illegal or not doesn't matter too much unless you have money and resources to fight it. As an example, I had a lawyer friend who suddenly got a bill to pay for the previous tenant who hadn't paid the internet bills for months. Of course it was unjust, but the telecom company still put a lean on his account. Despite being a lawyer, it took said friend about a year to fight it (and win). But remember, this was a lawyer. I would have to hire a lawyer, take the thing to court, and hope everything is compensated.

If this were a reality where I could put my life on hold to fight stuff like this with state aid, there's no doubt I'd do it, but in this reality? You've gotta pick your battles.

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[–] _Nico198X_@europe.pub 5 points 9 months ago* (3 children)

N26 does not. I use it on graphene os, along with wise.

Good luck.

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[–] atro_city@fedia.io [S] 1 point 9 months ago (2 children)

I mean, it didn't work for me on LineageOS 🤷

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[–] _Nico198X_@europe.pub 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

I don't know anything about Lineage OS.

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[–] atro_city@fedia.io [S] 1 point 9 months ago

And I know nothing of GrapheneOS beyond that it's also degoogled. The point being that it should require some magic or extra effort to get a banking application working on a degoogled phone. It should just work ™ But our banks are too dependent on Scroogle and crApple. They are basically saying "use US tech or you're on your own", which of course forces the majority to use US tech. It's a sad state of affairs.

My only hope is the European Payments Initiative which is introducing Wero as an alternative o MasterCard and VISA. Once those are up and running, hopefully they'll tackle the other dependencies too.

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[–] Lumisal@lemmy.world 2 points 9 months ago (1 child)

Revolut works on Volla Linux

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[–] atro_city@fedia.io [S] 1 point 9 months ago

Didn't work on LineageOS.

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