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[–] 61 points 1 year ago (23 children)

No apps => Nobody buys => No users => Nobody makes apps

I'd seriously consider if I at least got the bare necessities, like my bank.

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  • [–] 20 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    I honestly don't get why everyone is so hung up on banking apps. I run Graphene, and my bank's app actually does work, but I wouldn't really have a problem if it didn't. They have a website that is pretty usable, and I don't need an app to use my payment cards.

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  • [–] 20 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Because some banks now require you to authenticate every payment (eg. online payments using your debit card) and every new recipient for bank transfers, using their phone app. The apps rely on the chain of trust that Google and Apple provide with their TPM or "secure enclave" chips to cryptographically authenticate that it is indeed the same device that the bank previously authorized.

    Online banking via the website of these banks will still require at least one tap on the phone app to authorize any transfers that you make on the website.

    Linux phones (and custom Android ROMs) don't benefit from this same chain of trust, and so even if they have the secure chip in the hardware, the banking apps don't have a convenient API to query it, so the banking apps just don't work.

    Banking fraud causes a serious amount of money lost to criminals each year so it's not surprising that the banks want better ways of determining if a request is really coming from their customer('s device) and not a criminal who phished their online banking password.

    This situation won't change unless either Linux phones gain in popularity enough that the banks decide to port their apps to the platform or a law is passed saying that banks must support more than just Google and Apple (ie. custom roms etc.) at which point the work will be done to use the hardware attestation available in the phone on other software platforms.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I know several banks who's apps don't need Google Attestation. I would also not use a bank that forces an app as the main point of contact as my main one. A lot of banks around here offer a tan-device as an alternative. There's also a lot of transport associations that offer nationally valid chip-cards.

    I do see why it's a problem, but I also don't think that one should let such services dictate their choice of mobile device. I do know that I come from a privileged position, living in a country where I have options.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    if you're aware there are countries where the options you're talking about dont exist, maybe you also get why some people are so hung up on these banking apps?

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  • I do get it, and I could have phrased it differently. My point mostly is, it is often painted as an insurmountable problem for adoption, and while that might be true for a lot of users, there's also a large number of user for who it isn't.

    Also, for me personally, I'd rather switch banks than use a phone with a stock rom, but I know most people don't view things that way.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago*

    The main use of the apps is 2fa. There are other things that are also becoming harder without apps, like public transport.

    The apps might even work for now, but then I'd rely on Google not pushing some bullshit that breaks it.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    In my country we have an phone number based instant money transfer protocol called Bizum, everyone uses it. When you go out eating, one pays with your phone via NFC then everyone bizums the payer with their part. It's something I use almost every time I go out.

    Bizum is a protocol that's implemented in the app of the banks themselves, so I kinda do need the app, I'm not going to go into the phone browser to go into the app web to do a transfer of 14.5€ that will then shocker ask me to verify the transfer via the app. Even if the verification was a SMS nonce code that would be incredibly annoying compared to what we already have.

    So yeah, people are hung up on banking apps because they kinda do need them with them.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    My bank has "removed" the mobile version of the banking website. It's technically still there, so it can still be used, but you need to know the full address for it or keep it bookmarked. The main page's link to the mobile banking page now takes you to another page that tells you it no longer exists and to use the app instead.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Depending on your bank, you may be able to use their website.

    The "no apps" isn't "that big of an issue" (at least for me), as there's Waydroid available, and it's just standard Linux with all the desktop apps right from Flathub. There's also plenty of webapps available.

    There's tons of other issues with Linux mobile, like general usability, battery life, responsiveness (especially when receiving calls or notifications), and hardware support.

    The biggest one I'm running into is sleep states. I can either have 4-ish hours of battery life, but if my phone is charged, I get notifications, alarms go off, and calls come in immediately. Or I can have about a day idle battery life, but have to check my phone before any of that stuff comes in.

    There's also the fact I use my phone for media a lot (Jellyfin, Lemmy), and the experience isn't great on Linux mobile. "Apps" integtate less with each other, and video playback is kind of a mess. (For example, I can't "share" on a photo from Lemmy to send it to a friend on Matrix).

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    Are you using PMOS? Have you checked SailfishOS? It sounds like it would be quite a lot more polished and more usable

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    I'm running on postmarketOS, SailfishOS includes significant proprietary components, besides firmware. Like the user-interface. My Android daily driver is already running strict FOSS-only ROM and apps (with an exception in firmware), there's no reason for me to switch to sometbing proprietary.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    That is definitely choice. In my mind SailfishOS is open enough as most of it is open. But of course it is good to have options. For me carrying two phones would be no-go, which leads me to be mostly interested as polished options that can meet my app needs --> don't know other Linux option (currently) in this case than SFOS

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  • [+] -7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (7 children)
  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Graphene is based on Android, no?

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  • [+] -7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)
  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

    It doesn't use the userspace of Linux the kernel does not matter here also it uses a very old kernel that is heavily modified

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago

    Hardware is too locked down. Open source chip platforms are only starting to be developed now after decades of computing. It's all been running off the same architectures from monopolists. Linux phone devs like PostmarketOS work in such a tiny box that AOSP guys get much further. That is what I have gathered learning about it past few years anyways.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago
    1. They're horrible

    2. So you designed an OS, nice, so, the apps are vertical to match, right?... r-right?

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago

    Because they aren't fully baked and they aren't properly backed by billion/trillion dollar companies.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    As many pointed out, lack of apps.

    Don't know how much it improved over the years,
    but battery life wasn't the best either.

    What Linux mobile needs to gain traction imo,
    would be Android app virtualisation.

    Kinda like Waydroid, WSL, WSA, WinApps, WinBoat...
    But then specifically for seamless Android apps on Linux mobile.

    That could close the gap of lack of apps,
    resulting in more users/devs,
    resulting in more native apps,
    eventually resulting in less need for Android apps on Linux mobile.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I hate Android. A bit over a decade ago, I ran across an ArsTechnica article about a sale on Windows Phone, so I figured, for $55, may as well give it a try. Turns out I don't hate the form factor; I hate Android.

    I got a much better Windows phone shortly after, and I rode that for about two years. When I first got into the ecosystem, pretty much all apps were available (The Economist built a WP app!), but as uptake went nowhere, the apps started disappearing, and I had to come crawling back to Android.

    I hate this fucking thing of "no, no, let us control your hardware." And software options. And sell your location data to anyone willing to buy it.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago*

    I loved BB10. It had gesture-based navigation years ahead of its time, the Hub was the best notification system I've ever used, and it could run Android apps alongside BB10-native apps. It helped that I liked the form factor of the devices with physical keyboards, too.

    Nowadays can choose between a large, glass rectangle, and an extra-large, glass rectangle in one of two flavours: Apple and Android. It's no coincidence that Android has become more restrictive in terms of control over your own device, as the competition has dwindled and thinned.

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  • because phone manufacturers don't make them available without going through hoops.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago

    Hardware support.

    If I have to own a specific phone or line of phones, that I otherwise would never buy, I'm not going to get one just to run Linux on it.

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  • For me, it's lack of Linux smartphones and also not selling in more popular shops. If I wasn't curious about Linux and decided to watch videos online about it, I wouldn't have known a Linux Smartphone exist and also, a smartphone is already a oversaturated market where it's just another iPhone or some sort of variation of a Android phone.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    I'm sure what I'm about to say has already been echoed by others, but there are a few factors working against them. This is from a US/Canada perspective. Other countries may have more or fewer barriers.

    1. Mobile hardware - Mobile hardware has higher security. Some of this is by design for the user, since mobile devices are more likely to fall into wrong hands than e.g. a desktop. Some of it is corps preventing users from using their hardware in ways they don't want you to, though. The level of locked down mobile hardware has only increased over time.
    2. Carriers - This one is particular to North America, I think. Carriers here have a long history of meddling in phone hardware - from bloatware to SIM locks and everything in between. One of the things they do since LTE is require device makers to pay them to get certified to make calls on their network. Linux capable devices are too niche to be able to afford this. This is why Fairphone, for example, even with its Android-based OS, only works on one carrier here.

    Those are the main two barriers here. Things like apps can have workarounds for those that would be interested in early adoption of Linux phones. But there's no way around the combination of carrier certification costs and limited options of only very locked down hardware.

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  • [–] 22 points 1 year ago* (5 children)

    It’s banking:

    https://slrpnk.net/post/28294479

    The army of corporate boot lickers in the mobile phone context is largely composed of people who think banking on a smartphone is wise, despite the attack surface and despite the bank being empowered to monitor their customers more closely. Banking apps are the most significant culprit for gluing people to Android.

    We may never see the day when more than 5% of the population realises the importance of FOSS enough to shake free of their addiction to convenience.

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  • [+] 10 points 1 year ago (1 child)
  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago*

    There are 35 million Mexican adults (38%) without a bank account. So living unbanked is at least an option, and more than ⅓ find it viable.

    Nonetheless, it’s interesting to hear that all banks in Mexico are digital and that not a single one offers offline service. And that not a single digital bank offers logins w/out 2FA, or 2FA by SMS (which includes feature phones), or 2FA by using a card reader. If all that is true, consider posting about it in !smartphone_required@lemmy.sdf.org.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    The army of corporate boot lickers in the mobile phone context is largely composed of people who think banking on a smartphone is wise

    This is extremely reductive and oblivious to the actual realities of banking in various countries. If you think it's easy to be "unbanked" then I would suggest that you try it yourself first.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    This is extremely reductive and oblivious to the actual realities of banking in various countries.

    I think you will be hard-pressed to find a country that does not have a single bank that can serve those w/out smartphones. If you find such a country, plz post about it in !smartphone_required@lemmy.sdf.org and send me the link. Then we may be able to make a case for ppl in that specific country not being boot-lickers, if at the same time being unbanked is illegal.

    If you think it’s easy to be “unbanked” then I would suggest that you try it yourself first.

    I have been simulating an unbanked life for years now. 5 creditors are threatening lawsuits for non-payment after refusing my cash. One took me to court and it was an easy win for me. I just appeared without a lawyer and pointed to the law.

    It’s also worth noting that unbanked is more extreme that simply choosing a bank that does not require a smartphone.

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    [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    A lot of technical answers, but consider a social driver: Linux users and developers are a lot more likely to prefer to do their computing on a "real" computer with a keyboard and large screen. Therefore, Linux as a desktop/laptop OS will always be significantly ahead of mobile offerings.

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  • [+] 10 points 1 year ago (1 child)
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Which is not going to happen anytime soon IMO. Even if we were able to print our own chips at home, they would be just DIY devices only to be used by geeks, meaning no mainstream apps/programs would work and it would be just like Linux desktop days back in 2000s (some still don't work even today).

    It's getting more and more into a dystopic future where freedoms are willingly given up by people under the excuse of "advancing" or "getting the best technology we can ever get right now". Meanwhile companies make more billions and getting more power by stealing more and more data from their user base. So I'm not as optimistic as you.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    In my case it's because I can't get hardware that supports it without paying a fortune for importing. The other option is ancient hardware that most likely has a cooked battery that I'd have to hunt for in a used market.

    Then there's the lack of VoLTE support on a lot of models which is becoming a non-starter as carriers are taking down the 3G towers.

    That's before I've even gotten to try the software which I'm not hearing great things about.

    It's not popular because it's an enthusiast niche at best. Linux mobile needs more time in the oven before it's ready, by my measurement another couple of decades.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    My guess is that because hardware support, you can install PC Linux on pretty much any system, but I am unaware of mobile Linux os that officially supports my phone.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Because they don't work as phones, at least not for practical use

    No one has cracked it yet, some projects seem to be getting close, but the radio in a phone is a very complicated and poorly documented black box

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Every review I've seen of them is really bad. Basic things like simply placing or receiving a call do not work properly.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    @ryujin470 Difference between ARM architectures, few standards, closed bootloaders, no interest for developing apps...

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (23 children)

    Android is Linux based and arguably the most popular mobile OS.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    You know that isn't what OP asked.

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  • [+] -7 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Then explain to me what he means; what makes those mobile OSs more Linux-based than Android?

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

    They mean GNU Linux. Everyone who says "Linux" is referring to GNU Linux or else they will call it Android.

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  • [+] [S] 5 points 1 year ago (8 children)
  • [–] -4 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    They aren’t popular because there already is a very popular linux based mobile OS: Android. What would be the point of another one? Why would anyone want to use a new OS with zero app support and no advantage to using it?

    If you want to overcome the obstacle of being a new platform with no support then you have to provide a significant advantage to make it worth the pain, and there simply isn’t one.

    Why did people switch to iOS and Android phones when companies like Nokia had the market cornered? Because they offer a massive improvement in UX over the established players. What advantage do those OSes you mentioned have?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (6 children)

    you have to provide a significant advantage to make it worth the pain, and there simply isn’t one.

    Ah, but there is. Privacy. Some of us are old enough to remember when that was an enshrined right instead of us just being data providers to rich guys.

    I don't know why you think you have the moral high ground here and are being so argumentative and making specious analogies, but, yeah, there are people who don't like being part of a surveillance economy, and as paid-off lawmakers aren't going to do jack shit, we need to have options outside of just being pawns for Google and Apple.

    How this escapes you is beyond me, but I'm not going to be an asshole like you've been in every response on this thread.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    Ah, but there is. Privacy.

    Tell that to the masses who post their entire private lives on bookface and tictac. The overwhelming majority of people don’t give a fuck. Especially if it means having to give up all their favorite apps.

    I don't know why you think you have the moral high ground here

    What makes you assume I think that?

    there are people who don't like being part of a surveillance economy, and as paid-off lawmakers aren't going to do jack shit

    Of course there are. The question was why mobile OSes that offer that don’t take off. And the answer is simply that very few people care enough for it to be a viable market. Very few people care enough to be willing to get excluded from iMessage or Facebook groups just to take a principled stance on privacy.

    If you want these to take or you have to offer way more than some abstract promise of better privacy. Think of what you’re asking people to give up. To get them to switch you need a massive incentive.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    I mean, I left Facebook in 2014 and have never been on Instagram or TikTok. You act like it's this huge endeavour to not be on such sites. I used WhatsApp to stay in touch with my family in Europe, but once Facebook bought that, I was done. Told them to message me on Signal.

    I'm asking people to give up parasocial relationships. They aren't useful, so no loss there.

    And it's not my fault they can't see that.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    mean, I left Facebook in 2014 and have never been on Instagram or TikTok.

    I’ve never been on any social media, but we’re not exactly average people. For a lot of people it’s hugely important to their social lives. Giving up Facebook for them means being excluded from social events. They will no longer see event announcements from their social groups.

    You and I may not care about these things, but to a lot of people these are hugely important.

    And it's not my fault they can't see that.

    It’s your fault for not being able to even consider that other people are different from you and have different needs.

    You could put me on an uninhabited island for 10 years and I’d be perfectly happy. My brother by contrast will get depressed after 2 days without social contact.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    They don't have different "needs" ... they just don't realize what they've signed up for. It was very easy to get rid of Facebook ... I sent a final message letting them know how to get a hold of me. If they don't want to engage elsewhere, it's relatively easy to determine the depth of our friendship.

    I've been in solitary confinement for going on seven years. I doubt you'd enjoy it as much as you think. We're social creatures.

    I do want to point out, as I was a bit snarky in my last reply, that I appreciate your more balanced tone here.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    I've been in solitary confinement for going on seven years. I doubt you'd enjoy it as much as you think. We're social creatures.

    I don’t doubt it. While most people were going crazy during the corona lockdown it was probably the most peaceful and happy period in my life. As an autistic person social interactions aren’t exactly enjoyable.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    I mean, I've only very recently realized that I'm on the spectrum. Not diagnosed, but several online tests coalesced around an 87% chance. It would explain a lot.

    Also makes you a really kickass editor.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (7 children)
  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    “Why aren’t Linux based mobile OSes more popular if we ignore the fact that the most popular mobile OS by far is Linux based”.

    Gee, I wonder why.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Come on, you're being disingenuous. You know exactly what this person was talking about. You're acting in the exact same way that people are acting when they unironically post the whole "Actually, what you're referring to as Linux is actually GNU + Linux" or whatever. Come ooon...

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    What is the difference between Android and any of the other Linux based mobile OSes?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    The massively different userlands, mutable root partition by default, root by default, etc.

    They are completely different operating systems that just so happen to use the same kernel.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    The massively different userlands, mutable root partition by default, root by default, etc.

    And there’s your answer: that’s shit no one cares about other than a few super nerds on Lemmy.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    People care about having an OS not controlled by Big Tech. You might not, but you don't have to be a dick about it to people who do.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago

    People care about having an OS not controlled by Big Tech.

    Sure. Ask the average person if they want to give up their Facebook or TikTok apps so they can have a ‘free’ OS. You’re absolutely delusional if you think that any significant number of consumers will choose that.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago

    I'm still fucking pissed that MS stopped Windows Phone development. My Lumia 950XL was the height of my smartphone experience. Live tiles, so, like, I could just look at my home screen and see how my accounts were doing (yeah, I used to have savings and investments and such) alongside weather and ... a Jedi needs not these things.

    But when you get laid off three times in a year, the calculus changes. "Sorry you're fucked, but we don't care" -- IRS

    I wanted to try GrapheneOS on an old Pixel, but when I pulled it out of the box, the power button was gone. And you can't really fake it with a ballpoint pen.

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