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[–] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Having worked with a no-code product for a family member who ran for a local position, you can get pretty far with them. The issues are usually when you want to go outside their happy path and do your own thing, and unfortunately a large part of campaigning is branding. The tool we used let us write our own HTML though, so that's where I came in to bring some custom CSS so that the website could look a bit more unique.

In general, for a small campaign, I agree with the author's decision to go no-code. Writing a site from scratch is doable and maybe not that hard, but hooking up stuff for campaign donations, emails, etc was way too much for me to try to do on my own in my free time. Better funded campaigns can probably go further, though not sure if it's even common there to go custom or just use one of these tools.

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  • [–] [S] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I didn't mention some other systems, but for bigger campaigns ActionNetwork is one of the most used tools and has a lot of integrations, for instance with N8N. I do run some systems with ActionNetwork, mostly for newsletters. The thing of using N8N as a glue layer is that you can integrate with more specialized tools if the need arises, maintaining your custom systems for more niche cases.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    I've been using n8n for years, but their constant (admittedly mild) nagging to upgrade is bugging me lately, so I've been looking into alternatives.

    Kestra looks promising, but I haven't played around with it much.

    Anyhow, I'm appreciating the perspective of the article you shared. Thanks!

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    How does one get into this line of work?

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  • 30 comments in c/opensource@lemmy.ml view that post
    [–] 23 points 1 year ago

    I didn't finish this article because I'm procrastinating before a minor deadline, but I read enough to realise that my prior bias against no-code software was excessively strong and largely based in gatekeepy ideals; I am a weirdo who loves to tinker, and I earnestly believe that many of the people who don't consider themselves techy could find joy in this path if not for platform capitalism, bullshit laws around software, and IT education that creates a class of obedient users.

    However, it's unrealistic to hope that it's possible to "convert" everyone to this path, or even the majority of people. It's useful to remind myself that my goal of facilitating more tinkerers and builders in the world is that I think that's a route towards greater empowerment and freedom in interfacing with our tech-heavy world, and that the template that feels most natural to me is not the only route to tech empowerment

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago

    I'm on the yunohost wagon for almost 4 years, I'm really happy and I could cut a lot of big tech off my digital life

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    "No code" is just another way of saying there is a base of code. Call it base code instead!

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    This is interesting. I've been setting up our non-profit's new grant-funded Azure VM, then Wordpress site, then CiviCRM, then hardening it all, and I'm hoping to offer this as a (volunteer) turnkey service to a few other nonprofits in town. And it's amazing to me how many hours this still takes, and how out of reach it is for the average nonprofit.

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  • [–] 21 points 1 year ago (20 children)

    “No-code software”, aka, CMS.

    Why do we need a new term that is vastly worse than the old term?

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  • [–] [S] 24 points 1 year ago (19 children)

    A CMS is a specific type of no-code software. N8N or Appsmith are definitely not a CMS

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago* (18 children)

    Can you define no-code software?

    From the article:

    You have a program, WordPress, to create more software, namely your specific website. It is more than a bunch of options to select, but it doesn't really require coding for most things.

    So.. is it just software that has a plugin architecture?

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  • [–] [S] 21 points 1 year ago (14 children)

    You're focusing too much on the WordPress example. There are a dozen tools mentioned in the article that will clarify what's possible.

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  • [–] -5 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    I don’t see what these things have in common other than just being software tools, generally for managing content. And I really don’t understand the term “no-code software”. It’s all built with code. If I use an operating system to run a program, that doesn’t mean I’ve invented some sort of new software system, that’s just what they’re designed to do. Using a tool in a way that it’s designed to be used isn’t really novel.

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  • [–] 35 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    On the off chance you aren't being intentionally obtuse to troll:

    No-code is a term that refers to the perspective of the end user. Of course it is built using code, that's not the point. The person ultimately using it doesn't need to use any code to construct whatever the tool is enabling (automatons, websites, etc), which massively increases the target demographic who can use the tool.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Yes, I get the intention of the term. I don’t understand why it exists. It’s unnecessary. Most software is designed to not require you to write code to use it.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    Hmm okay, that's true. I guess there's another aspect missing from my description above then: no-code is for doing tasks in ways that resemble how you'd do them with code, but without directly using code.

    Think about the nodes in Blender or Node-RED, or the blocks in visual scripting for kids to learn. It's using the same concepts of code, but with varying amounts of abstraction depending on which example we look at.

    WordPress is a CMS, that's true, and is usually how it's described. Specifically, though, the block editor is what I assume the OP was referring to as no-code. That part of WordPress is abstracted more than a tree of nodes in Blender, but they're both examples of an effort by those softwares to make doing those tasks more approachable to users.

    Inkscape could probably also be described as no-code if you squinted hard enough, since it's letting you manipulate SVG tags directly without needing to open a text editor and know the SVG spec.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Naming things is hard. But if you have a better category name to distinguish from classic cms software I am all ears.

    And yes no-code software itself is written with code.

    But I dont mind having a name for software in which

    • you can add and manage workflows
    • you can define tables/data/attributes and views
    • that are not scoped to specific use cases up front
    • query and scripts are abstracted away by a friendy UI
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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    It is classic CMS software. Wordpress is listed. That’s an CMS. And what you listed doesn’t fit all the things called no-code in the article.

    Maybe this would be easier. Can you name some software that isn’t no-code software and tell me why? (I mean, obviously other than software you use to write code.)

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    My characterization would be that there's a spectrum here:

    • 100% yes code: compilers, IDEs, scripting environments, databases, you wanna get something done, you are going to be specifying it in something that at the very least looks like traditional source code.
    • Completely on the other side of the spectrum, traditional consumer-oriented software: word processor, web browser, accounting/bookkeeping (not spreadsheets though, we'll get to those), photo/video/audio editor, maps, music player, etc.

    That first side of the spectrum is pretty easy to pin down. It has little to no metaphor or abstraction, and the pointy tip of this side is no metaphor at all, just writing machine code and piping it directly into the CPU. A higher level language will let you gloss over some details like registers, memory management, multithreading, maybe pretend you're manipulating little objects or mathematical functions instead of bits on a wire, but overall you are directing the computer to do computer things using computer language, and forced to think like a computer and learn what computers can and cannot do. This is, of course, the most powerful way to use a computer but is also completely inaccessible to almost everybody.

    The second, I'd link together as all being software with a metaphor that is not particularly related to computing itself, but to something more real world. People edited music by physically splicing tapes together, an audio editor does an idealized version of that. Typewriters existed, and a word processor basically simulates that experience. Winamp wasn't much more than a boom box and a sleeve of CDs. There is usually a deliberate physicality and real-world grounding to the user's mental model of the software, even if it is doing things that would be impossible if the metaphor were literal. You don't need to use code, but you also don't get anything code-like out of it.

    No-code is in between. It's intended for a similar audience as the latter category, who want a clear, easy-to-understand mental model that doesn't require a computer science degree, but it tries to enable that audience to perform code-like tasks. Spreadsheets are the original example of this; although they originate as a metaphor for paper balance sheets, the functions available in formulas fundamentally alter the metaphor to basically "imagine if you had a sheet of paper that could do literal magic" and at that point you're basically just describing a computer with a screen. Everything in a spreadsheet is very tactile, it's easy to see where your data is, but when you need to, you can dip into a light programming environment that regular people can still make work. In general, this is the differentiator for "no code" apps: enabling non-coders to dip their toes into modifying program behavior, scripting tasks, and building software. They're limited to what the tool provides, but the tool is trying to give them the power that actual coding would provide.

    I'd never thought of WordPress as low-code, but I think that fits. Websites go beyond paper or magazines, and WordPress allows people to do things that would otherwise require code and databases and web servers and so on.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    So basically any software that has logic abstraction? So, almost all software. Why not call that logic-abstraction software? Why invent some (seemingly purposefully) confusing term that doesn’t even apply to half of what people label with it.

    Spreadsheet software has literal programming languages written for it. That’s not no-code. VBA is code. Also, I wouldn’t use the term magic, but rather math. Spreadsheets are akin to a sheet of paper that can do math. If you write the math wrong, you get the wrong answer.

    Browsers are ridiculously code-full. Press F12 and there’s a terminal. You can even launch a remote debugging environment.

    Same as video and audio editors. With very few exceptions, professional media editors have full fat scripting language support built in. Same with bookkeeping software.

    I just think the term “no-code software” is essentially meaningless, vague & ill defined, and therefore useless. Just say advanced or extensible software.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    "no-code" software is a very specific category of software that aims to enable users to build something that usually is built by a dev, without needing one.

    And while "no-code" can be a weird name, it makes sense when you read the definition I just gave. Just like "serverless" does not mean there is no server involved (obviously), but simply means you don't even need to think about the server part.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    Yes, so it’s software with logic abstractions. Why do we need a name like that? That covers almost all software, and you can just say extensible and configurable software. That name actually makes sense.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    No, it definitely does not cover almost all software. Most software does not aim to allow a random user to build something that usually requires a dev.

    When you use an OS, you build nothing. When you use a browser, you build nothing. When you use a game, you build nothing. When you use a graphics editor, you build something, but it's not something that a dev could do.

    I could go on with a list of almost all software like this, but that's not a good use of my time, and I hope it is not necessary.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    What do you mean “usually requires a dev”?

    I am a dev, and nothing I’ve built (by writing code) is something any of this software could do. Why would someone hire me to build something that’s already available? The reason I write things is because they can’t be done with existing software.

    I build things with an OS all the time. I built a media center PC by installing Bazzite on a mini pc. Doesn’t that make Bazzite no-code software? I also built a living room gaming console with Bazzite. And I built an automatic sorting system in my Minecraft world. Minecraft is no-code software. I built some bookmarklets in Firefox, so Firefox is no-code software. (Ok, to be fair, I wrote code to do that, so I guess Firefox is code software.) I built a parametric font with Inkscape. Isn’t that no-code software? Oh, I built a 3D printed wood joiner bracket with FreeCAD, so that’s no-code software too.

    Does none of this count? What is the exact specifications of the things you can build with a piece of software that make it no-code software vs not no-code software?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago*

    I am a dev as well, and to build a website you traditionally need a dev. Well, nowadays, you can build a website with a "no code" website builder. That's the most common "no-code" use.

    Not that it's relevant to this conversation, but that doesn't stop people from hiring me to build their website, because "no code" also means "limited customization" and/or "low quality".

    1. The OS isn't the software building anything for you.
    2. You didn't build a media center, you installed software that makes a media center. A "no-code" software that would build a media center would not make much sense, as there isn't a need for any sort of customisation that would not fit into "configuration".
    3. Your point with Minecraft does make sense, but as it does not have any use outside of Minecraft, I wouldn't call Minecraft a no-code system. However, the system itself that you used inside Minecraft to build your automatic sorter would fit the definition, imo. Redstone is a no-code system, for sure.
    4. Firefox didn't build it, you did.
    5. A parametric font isn't something that would require any code to make, so it doesn't fit the definition. What makes a parametric font useful is its support, which requires dev work, and is not no-code.
    6. A 3D print isn't something that would require a dev to do. Of course you can always model something with lines of code, but that's not how you'd sensibly do it.

    "Building something" and "Building something that traditionally requires dev work" are not the same thing.

    The software you use always needed code to make, but it doesn't aim to skip the "hire a dev" phase of your project. If it does, it is "no code".

    And for the sake of argument, let's say that Blender doesn't exist and no other software fulfilling the same purpose exists. Then you'd have to commission a dev (team) to create that software so that you can train people to create 3D models. But the dev building your 3D modeling software doesn't typically have the skills to use the software afterwards, so it does not fit the "no-code" definition.

    TL;DR: It is a "no-code" software when you can skip the "hire a dev" phase of your project and use said software instead.

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  • [+] [S] 1 point 1 year ago* (3 children)
  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    So basically anything that’s extensible or customizable?

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

    You have a program, WordPress, to create more software, namely your specific website.

    Bad example. Wordpress is to create blogs, not webpages (or even webshops). If you use it for anything more, you end up with one of the weekly critical security holes in plugins.

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  • 8 comments in c/opensource@programming.dev view that post
    [–] 18 points 1 year ago* (6 children)

    No/Low-Code: Letting people who don't know what they're doing half-ass things poorly without understanding the first thing about it and leaving them completely incapable of fixing it when something goes wrong and then pissing off actual developers when they have to go into the Playskool interface to fix it.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I’ve worked in business process automation for a bit. In most cases I’ve seen no/low-code is introduced when IT can no longer service technical debt and won’t deliver any new features within reasonable timeframes (usually a result of decades of underfunding). No „real” developer will be ever fixing no/low-code solutions either because why would they? Are they going to fix something in an alien tech stack? Are they going to implement this functionality properly? No, because they never had resources to do that.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    Why would we? lol, we wouldn't. But when management says "Help Delores with her app problem", what are you gonna do?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    I’m probably biased because I only work for big corpos and it would never be this simple there. IT is usually safe from this kind of dumb stuff, but then again that insulation might have been part of the reason why business people were considering no/low-code.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Well yeah but if the example is Yunohost and web interfaces, this makes sense

    Will not support complex firewall setups or even AI scraper protection, wireguard tunnels, tailscale/headscale/whatever alternative but it is an easy docker frontend I guess

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    I have difficulties finding open-source references in the article!? Where is it?

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  • 3 comments in c/selfhosted@lemmy.world view that post
    [–] 26 points 1 year ago*

    I’m not going to remove this post because the article does boast the virtues of self-hosted FOSS. Still, the article isn’t much more than an overview and does very little to educate or instruct. This is relatively low-effort and I hope the votes reflect that.

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  • Interesting article, thanks for sharing

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago

    Basically creating various n8n automations?

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