I recently learned that voting on lemmy is not anonymous. Anyone can get information about who has upvoted and downvoted a post or comment.

In combination with your IP, this is a massive privacy (maybe even physical security) risk. Also, people can target you for your votes.

Sadly, this is something where I would prefer Reddit over Lemmy. Big tech scrapes data from both places anyways, at least Reddit is safe.

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[–] 93 points 1 year ago (11 children)

Why are you saying IP addresses are publicly shown here and why is (almost) no one correcting you? That would've been an enormous privacy risk that would've required intentionally fucking users over. Just doesn't even make sense to write what you did about IP addresses. Seems like you're just hoping to cause some panic.

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  • [+] [S] -37 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    Admins can get them. It is not available to everyone.

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  • [–] 38 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Who says that Reddit isn't selling upvote/downvote and IP info? Or sharing with govts?

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  • [+] [S] -22 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I am not worried about big tech because they scrape everything anyways. I am more worried about the witchhunt and potential admin abuse.

    And even this does not happen, it should be made clear that votes are public

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Why are you worried about admin abuse? If you are worried that your admin will abuse you, you should switch to an instance you trust more.

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  • [–] 32 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    It's the nature of the beast. Federated software holds no secrets.
    Related: https://sopuli.xyz/post/31369487

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  • [–] [S] -2 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    It might not be a secret but voting should be a private thing, like most irl voting. It is nowhere explicitly stated to the users, no apps or website says it.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (7 children)

    Even if sites like lemmyvotes disappear and software like kbin/mbin starts hiding the votes all you need to do is to spin up your own lemmy server. Piefeds dev is actively trying to find a way to obscure voting, but I think that ended with the choice of public (federated) vote or private (instance-only) voting.

    I agree that the public nature of votes could be made more apparent, but the lemmy devs has decided against that
    https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/4967

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    It's ridiculously stupid. In my opinion. Actually making the votes private would be fine. Making the votes public but making sure everyone knows that would be fine. Trying to pretend they're private, and hiding them in the UI but making it an open secret that they're not private and anyone who knows what they're doing can look at how other people are voting, is textbook harmful security-by-obscurity misleading your users.

    It kind of goes with their authoritarian mindset I guess. "Don't question me, I don't have to be honest with you about what's going on, just shut up and go back to your UI which has only the features I allow you to have. Mine has a little dropdown that can look at the votes. Yours doesn't. Get back in your box. All the good users won't look outside what I tell them to."

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    Making the votes public but making sure everyone knows that would be fine.

    This is why I actually like that in kbin/mbin you can see up front who has voted what. It doesn't pretend votes are secret when they aren't.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I don't understand why everyone is so dismissive of this being a problem. Especially considering it is easily mitigated using simple voting agents.

    It's not just a privacy concern either, I promise you that trolls love being able to see which accounts are engaging with them in order to target certain demographics. Like we know this kind of shit has been used to manipulate elections already, and people here are just like "well I guess that's just the world now."

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    If you have an easy solution then I'm sure they would love your code over at https://github.com/w3c/activitypub

    I don't mind public votes, I do wish lemmy did a better job of showing that they are public though.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    Piefed literally already implemented voting agents and it worked fine until forum politics killed it.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Ah, so what Rimu calls an alt/sockpuppet account that automatically votes on their behalf.
    I haven't seen the Matrix chat but having a dev look for feedback and then implement changes based on feedback received isn't "forum politics" in my world.

    Good luck with your fork!
    https://piefed.social/post/956572

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Yes that thread is quite literally just describing forum politics, based on a very small amount of feedback from a select group of individuals discussing the matter in back channels.

    Simply put, admins were not satisfied just banning the agents for voting and the user for commenting. This is entirely a perception issue and caused no actual problems besides feels. This caused the implementation of trusted instances which was actually a flawed concept. Rather than iteration on the idea, the pressure from other admins caused it to be abandoned unceremoniously with almost zero input from users. I'm not sure how you can interpret this as anything other than forum politics.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    It literally can't be private, just from the way Lenny works. You can't have it all. You could in theory make it less visible, but that would be a false sense of privacy as it would be possible to do get the information with some effort. Just having it be fully open is more honest and makes no claims it can't keep.

    It's social media, even if federated. On Facebook, tiktok or whatever they are also not private btw: maybe users can or can't see them (I have no idea), but the company behind the platform certainly can and will use it for advertising to you and for what else to show you, making you the product.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Piefed did it with voting agents and it worked fine. The reason they rolled it back was just forum politics, because admins didn't like not knowing who was voting, even though they could just ban the agent if they wanted. This, incidentally is just more reason to hate the idea of public votes.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 1 year ago

    The thing is they make it extremely clear that votes are public by letting you see who voted right next to the button.

    Lemmy hides this feature and most users don’t know about it.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago*

    If you are logged in to anything, what you do is tied to your account. Welcome to the internet. Instance admin on your instance can figure out your ip. Nobody else. You can run your own instance to avoid this if you want. Or just use a vpn.

    Google track you constantly even when you are not logged in by the way, with scripts on almost every web page. So they have your real name, your entire search history, and what exact programs you use on your phone if you have android.

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  • [–] 31 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I don’t think IP addresses federate? I think only your instance admin can see your IP address. In any case, though, you should generally always assume that your up/down votes on any service are recorded and tied to your username. If you can come back later and change your vote, that vote is tied to your username. It may not be visible to other users, but the server admins can absolutely see what you’re doing.

    Reddit might not make your votes publicly visible, but they’re absolutely tracking them and using that information to select what you see, including advertising. They might not directly share those votes with advertisers, but they almost certainly are sharing your interests based on your votes. And you should assume Reddit and others will comply if the government comes asking for what users liked a post the government opposes, or who downvoted a post praising a new government initiative.

    It depends on your threat model, but your threat model might change. Freedom of speech might be curtailed by politicians even when that’s supposed to be unconstitutional. What might be safe to do online now might become unsafe in a year or two.

    YSK: every action you take online, even as simple as an Upvote or Like, might be recorded and may come back to haunt you

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago*

    Reddit is one entity, and by providing a service it is bound by a variety of privacy and data protection regulations. On the fediverse anyone can accumulate any of that information and store it for years, and they are not bound by any such data management or privacy laws. It's absolutely shocking to me that a place which is otherwise quite obsessed with privacy just brushes aside this distinction. As it stands a vote on the fediverse is far more likely to have real consequences versus one on reddit if, say, ones phone is searched at a border.

    This could be mitigated considerably with simple voting agents, as piefed tried to do, but this idea was killed by idiotic forum politics over fears of "vote manipulation."

    Yes, this is not hyperbole - the otherwise "privacy focused" leaders of the fediverse are more concerned with fake Internet points than real privacy concerns.

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  • [–] 31 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    The IP address thing is not real, though

    Just choose a nickname that is random word+4 random digits and don't reuse it on other services

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