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[–] 22 points 1 year ago*

In France, they repressed palestinian strike, canceled meeting and media defended Israel, he told us he won't arrest Netanyahu, despiste the CPI decision. There is so many things wrong.

Even if he does it, i don't trust him, he could act long before.

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  • [–] 53 points 1 year ago

    HOLY SHIT FINALLY

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago

    As tens of thousands of Gazans starve to death this week...

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  • [–] 50 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    But does that mean they'll recognize the genocide?

    It's like saying they'll recognize the house but won't acknowledge that it's on fire.

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  • [+] 38 points 1 year ago (1 child)
  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago

    It's just gaslighting and fooling people.

    Palestinians already has the right to defense based on UN general assembly 37/43, un general assembly resolution 2625 and Article 1(4) of the Geneva Protocol I. Even

    If you read the official document written to Traitor and Israeli asset Abbass you will see that it talk about right to Israel to live in security but not for Palestinians, they ask to demilitarize all Palestine without any security guarantees and a vow to stop the occupation .

    We all know that the USA will never allow Palestine to be recognized anyway. Even it does, countries don't have to wait for Palestine to be recognized to do their obligation and sanctions Israel state wide and stop any military collaboration since they signed genocide and Geneva conventions

    The USA and Israel will always try to stop any aid and support to reach Palestinians

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  • [–] 121 points 1 year ago (17 children)

    when?? after every Palestinian has starved to death? just so they can pretend to have a moral standing?

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  • [–] 96 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    At the next UN assembly. It says right there in the article.

    Basically France now recognises the State of Palestine, and will make it official at the UN assembly.

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  • [–] -4 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    it was rethorical... thousands more will starve by September

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  • [–] 50 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    Recognising the state of Palestine in over a month doesn't change the urgency to let aid reach Palestinians. Of course work on that front must be done as well, and sooner than September.

    I just don't understand your point. How does officially recognising the statehood of Palestine now or in a month affect the current starvation crisis?

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    I just don’t understand your point. How does officially recognising the statehood of Palestine now or in a month affect the current starvation crisis?

    That's the point, it doesn't... condemning Israel publicly, temporarily breaking economic relationship with Israel and/or urging other to so the same would (for example)

    My point is this is likely just empty talk... Imagine the major of your town saying they will increase the Fire Fighters budget in the next fiscal year as a response to your house being on fire RIGHT NOW.... do you get it now?

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    It doesn't, that's the point. We don't need them to recognize Palestine now or next month, we need them to address the genocide. End all support for Israel, and use UN forces to actually stop the genocide.

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  • [–] 31 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    It's still important to recognise Palestine as a state. And it doesn't delay any other action.

    It seems to me that the progress you see is not the progress you want, so you consider it pointless. But the truth is, it's still progress, and it doesn't take away from the other priorities you mention.

    So, once again, I don't understand your point.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    And it doesn’t delay any other action.

    What other actions?

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    What other action does this delay?

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Well none because they are not taking any other action...

    I am not against the French recognizing Palestine as a State, I am against them (and the rest of the world) doing nothing about the immediate urgency that is the genocide Israel is actively conducting. Why is this so hard to understand?

    Picture this: your house is on fire NOW, your son/daughter/dog/cat is trapped inside... nobody comes to help and then you hear the Mayor saying they will increase the Fire Fighter's budget in the next fiscal year.

    I am certain you would not be against the budget increase but that really does nothing about your immediate and urgent need, does it?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago*

    Well considering your very first comment was asking "when" this was going to happen:

    Picture this: your house is on fire NOW, your son/daughter/dog/cat is trapped inside... nobody comes to help and then you hear the Mayor saying they will increase the Fire Fighter's budget

    And you respond by saying "When will you increase the budget?" Instead of saying what you actually need, then get upset when people respond to the question you actually asked instead of the statement you had in your head.

    And again, the mayor announcing an increase in the fire fighter's budget does not slow down help for your home.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago

    This is part of that process. France is sort of saying that they are willing to put boots on the ground to stop this, without saying exactly that.

    Because being a member state of the UN comes with perks, like the ability to request UN peace keepers.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Ah well, guess they better not do it until they can invent a time machine, then.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    They didn't do it, he just said they will.

    They are trying to cover their assess from the accountability of being complicit with the genocide the whole time, they are counting on people like you to let them get away with it.

    What does recognize Palestinian state mean? They'll give us what's left of the rubble in Gaza and the few ghettos they allow us to call the Palestinian territory in the West Bank?

    Is there anything proposed that will actually give Palestinians any semblance of justice?

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  • [+] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)
  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    So one side that proves in front of cameras it will bomb entire city, use food as a war weapon, bomb multiple countries in the region for no valid reason, have a mandatory inscription, will have unlimited military aid, while the other will have no military ability, and we expect to believe this will work out?

    Sure it is a good start, but fuck you have to see a genocide for no reason to do bare minimum is insane.

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  • [–] 27 points 1 year ago

    Don't get fooled . There is no mention of Palestine right to security and self defense. He ask for Palestinians to be completely demilitarized before having real assurance that Israel will end occupation completely , there is no mention of how the two state solution would be accomplished and what will happen if Israel refuses

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  • [–] 24 points 1 year ago

    Send troops to stop the fucking genocide!

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  • [–] 95 points 1 year ago (50 children)

    Good. Now let’s recognize it everywhere else and stop recognizing israel.

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  • [–] 67 points 1 year ago (45 children)

    Not recognizing states that obviously exist is extremely silly.

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  • [–] 27 points 1 year ago (21 children)

    Yeah. exactly why Palestine should be recognized. israel is, however, a european invention and terrorist colony.

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  • [–] 24 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    The first part applies to... Most of the world outside of Europe?

    The second part applies, to lesser degrees, to a large part of the world. Such as the USA.

    What even is this argument. Israel's not a state? Well fucking great, so following that logic which state should we hold responsible for Israel's crimes then?

    Europe's colonial past is a whole-ass subject but amongst all the potential ways to try to make up for it, "stop formally recognizing former colonies because we fucked it up too badly" is one of the worst takes I've heard.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago* (10 children)

    state held responsible? PEOPLE, individuals, yes. People who are running that terrorist shitshow. Members of various places around the world. And yes. That includes a lot of people. Sanctions on a state never work. People need prison. for crimes against humanity.

    Stop pretending it is ok that israel exist as a recognized nation; it is younger than some of the people still living there!

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (9 children)

    So there are two interpretations I could make of your comment, one of which is more charitable than the other.

    1. You are using the Chinese and Israeli playbook of weaponizing statehood recognition as a value judgement. That is profoundly problematic, both on a practical and a philosophical level. De-humanization should not be a tool we have to use on our enemies. Our moral high ground should speak for itself.
    2. Your are dog-whistling for the genocide and/or deportation of all Israelis. In which case our conversation is done here.

    To be clear, Israel is committing genocide and every single member of its government and of the IDF should be tried at The Hague. But laws and international order exist for a reason, and trying to circumvent them like this is a very bad look that Israel has been rightfully criticized for for decades.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    where do I mention a people should not exist? never.

    the state itself was created by a group knowing full well they would need genocide to make their state. they call it, these days, “mowing the lawn.” the criminals need prison and the working class people who just want peace deserve it. in Palestine.

    the tricky part of these convos is not conflating the nation state, israel with the Jewish people. Or zionism with the Jewish people. Or the state israel with the followers of Israel.

    hope that helped.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago* (7 children)

    So no Israel, just Palestine? That would leave Israelis a majority population in Palestine. Do you expect Israelis to magically not outvote the Palestinians, or are you proposing an autocracy or an apartheid system stripping Israelis of their voting rights?

    I would also strongly suggest you do some reading on the factors leading up to the Rwandan genocide. A "just" peace isn't enough; after generations of life under apartheid, there are no easy or quick paths to lasting peace. I won't commit the hubris of pretending I have a definitive solution, and I think it's important to underline that as outsiders to the conflict, the best we can do is offer to safeguard peace. That's what the Two-State Solution was meant to do, that's what arms sanctions are meant to do, that's what the threat of economic retaliation would be meant to do (granted each with their own significant shortcomings). Denying the practical existence of either Israel or Palestine is antithetical to building a path towards lasting peace and a meaningful international effort towards safeguarding said peace.

    For a practical example, assuming a peace treaty ever gets signed, sending UN Blue Helmets would be diplomatically easier if all parties involved recognized Palestine and Israel as sovereign states. Even if that all seems like a moot point right now what when neither Israel nor most Western nations are actually looking forward to peace.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (6 children)
  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    In this context? Someone who is currently on the good side of the current apartheid system in Israel/Palestine.

    Don't play dumb with me, you know full well what I meant. If you have a point, make it.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (4 children)

    those folk are Palestinian. that’s my entire point.

    yes apartheid exists. shooting for a two state solution codifies this apartheid. that is wrong.

    it needs to be completely reverted and the folks physically doing the genocide given the proper sentences.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    If you've got a plan to achieve that and doesn't involve genociding israel, shoot for it. But I don't think "unrecognizing" Israel is a particularly productive step towards that.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    it’s simple:

    the criminals doing a genocide go to prison.

    the nation state gets dissolved.

    one state is left, palestine.

    stop being so thick about this. the nation of israel should not exist. that does not mean the people who follow israel. you know the difference.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    And I want a unicorn for Christmas.

    Look, right now I don't even have a good reason to hope that Israel will be stopped before they finish their genocide. But step 1 is to get a permanent ceasefire in place. Whatever fantasies we might have beyond that is a moot point. But recognizing both parties as sovereign would go some way towards facilitating the terms and enforcement of that ceasefire.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    yeah. it might. but it’s never ever worked out in the history of man when one party is doing a genocide. it took a few million russians to stop a famous genocidal ass in the 20th century.

    the key here is that we cannot enable this behavior by acknowledging it as any kind of “ok.”

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    You don’t have to think Israel should exist. But what good does it do to pretend they don’t when they obviously do?

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I am not speaking of a “they”, but of a “what.”

    israel is a group of invasive terrorists who, for almost a century now, or more depending on inclusion of zionism, have invaded a land that was already a nation on its own and already recognized by the world.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Isn't a group a "they" and not a "what". Israel is a nation of people who sees themselves as Israeli. Entire generations are born there and consider that land their home. You can't be born a terrorist.

    It's possible in the future to build some kinda secular Haifa Republic but this war has made that an incredibly utopian prospect.

    It's not clear what position you advocate except the continuation of war.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    so where was that logic when palestine was literally invaded by a group of europeans calling themselves zionists? or europeans claiming some sort of “british mandate”?

    revert it to palestine. it’s what it was before our grandparents generation invaded.

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  • [+] -7 points 1 year ago (4 children)
  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    You can be an anarchist if that's what you believe is best. But belittling people who don't think like you is stupid and childish.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago*

    Did I give some indication that I disagree with that idea? Lol

    I find that “recognition” is just a tool that powerful nations use to oppress less powerful polities. That’s why I am arguing against it.

    There’s no contradiction between this argument and anarchism. As I said elsewhere in the thread, I don’t believe states should exist. But giving the US, China, and other imperial powers the right to decide which ones are acknowledged or dismissed is part of the problem.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Why? Do you actually believe states have rights?

    States are invented, lines are drawn on maps and people are divided by elites, it's silly to insist that a genocidal ethno state should simple continue to exist because it already exists.

    We don't want a two state solution, we want one state where everyone is treated equally regardless of religion.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago* (4 children)

    No, I’d rather see them abolished. But they do exist, and allowing the US or Europe to decide which ones are acknowledged is a big problem in today’s world.

    People who exercise their own autonomy should have that autonomy acknowledged. Full stop. Pretending it doesn’t exist is harmful, even if that autonomy is being used to hurt people.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Pretending it doesn’t exist is harmful, even if that autonomy is being used to hurt people.

    What? What is this "pretending"? What do you think we're talking about? And what makes pretending Israel isn't a state, if that's what you understood being said, harmful?

    I’d rather see them abolished

    That's what we're talking about. Let's abolish Israel, and create a new state for all the people, historically we'd call that Palestine, but I'm okay with coming up with a new name.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Israel may have been a mistake in 1947 but there is no point in not recognizing them. They are there, they exist, you can't undo what happened in 47.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Of course we can. We can stop funding them financially and militarily, we can stop doing business with them, and we can refuse their citizens travel, until they stop genocide and end apartheid.

    You're pretending like this isn't common place already, it's just unfathomable that it can happen to Israel for some reason?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    That has nothing to do with "stop recognizing them as a country" and the west loses more by not allowing citizens travel (because people wouldn't be able to go to holy sites, it works both way).

    And man, the EU can't even properly sanction Russia, do you really think they care about the middle east at all? Specially when not even the countries around care about Palestina.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (16 children)

    States only exist in our minds.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    And our legal system.

    Ending borders is a noble ideal but it's not currently practical. People need many of the services their country provides, like healthcare, elderly care, pensions, unemployment assistance etc.

    With no national boundaries, and no alternative system in place, society as we know it collapses.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    The legal system also only exists because we wrote our thoughts down. It’s barely more real than a border.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    The legal system also only exists because we wrote our thoughts down.

    so does math. still nobody would argue that math is wrong or arbitrary because of that

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    math exists outside of humanity though. it is a priori. nation states exist because some people decided to enslave others.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    well i guess law was originally derived from people's ambition towards power and society's need to still be organized. that's a universal phenomenon, even if you encountered an exotic animal species on another planet, i reckon.

    that's what makes it more universal than you think.

    a lot of details in our law are arbitrary, but so is math notation and even a lot of conventions that we use (consider 2π = 6.28 instead of π = 6.28). still, the core of the field is universal, i believe.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    1+1 does not equal 2 even if you “notate” it differently. That’s the thing about math. compared to power structures invented by humans who have to kill each other over the “science” behind sharing a fucking drinking fountain with a black person.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    There are and have been many different legal systems throughout the world and history. The one we’re familiar with is from the Romans - hence all the Latin legal terms - and was spread by colonialism.

    It is nothing like math, which was discovered independently by various cultures around the world.

    For more details read chapter 7 of David Graeber’s “Debt”

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    Non tangible things are still real. Families are real.

    The creation of complex systems is uniquely human and is what allows development and progress.

    Without these systems, laws and things including incorporatng non human entities has pros and cons. Development of healthcare and increasing longevity and increased food production, sanitation and reduction in hunger are a benefit. War and genocide are a problem. However, wars still happened before the introduction of borders. See Norse vikings, Roman empire creation etc.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    They are inter-subjective realities. As opposed to subjective realities - the sky looks blue to me - and objective realities - the sky is blue because of the refraction of light and varies in color due to atmospheric conditions.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Realities nonetheless.

    Laws exist because we say they do. Society and people follow patterns because of these laws. Abolishing these laws and borders would lead to societal breakdown without an alternative system to replace them.

    Families are also constructs, borne of genetic reproduction. however we now understand them to include marriage and adoption and blended families. All constructs. All legalized also.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    However, wars still happened before the introduction of borders

    The concept of borders did not exist yet but the earliest wars was definitely about territories control for accessing more natural resources . It's basically the same

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/ancient-brutal-massacre-may-be-earliest-evidence-war-180957884/

    This implies that the resources the people of Nataruk had at the time were valuable and worth fighting for, whether it was water, dried meat or fish, gathered nuts or indeed women and children. This shows that two of the conditions associated with warfare among settled societies—control of territory and resources— were probably the same for these hunter-gatherers, and that we have underestimated their role in prehistory.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Yes, of course. However, look at even ancient Greece, and legends of war for troy about love. The concept is older than the concept of countries. War is always about resource allocation, of you include people as a resource, which they are on a societal level. The designation of borders and countries is also partly about resource allocation.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Lol so I agree with you 100%. There is a strong case against the recognition of any states on that basis.

    But, so long as we have a legal system that functions on the basis of this social construct, the idea that we should capriciously decide to recognize or not recognize various states doesn’t serve any practical purpose that I can see. Especially when they, as a matter of fact, do exercise authority over a given territory.

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  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Not good at all. No mention of Palestine living in security like Israel. He ask for Palestinians to be completely demilitarized before having real assurance that Israel will end occupation completely , there is no mention of how the two state solution would be accomplished and what will happen if Israel refuses

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago*

    This. Normally, it's the Messiah who is supposed to announce the creation of Israel, and I still haven't seen that. And there's nothing in the texts to indicate that Israel should be in Palestine; it could just as easily be on the surface of the sun.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    This could be a signal that they would take the right side on the Israel-EU trade debate.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    this is a smoke screen to make you forget about Israel-EU trade debate

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    How is this making me forget about Gaza?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (7 children)

    I said t Israel-EU trade debate not forgetting gaza

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Yeah, but the biggest issue in front of the EU that has any chance of altering anything in the short term is the trade deal. How does this distract from it?

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    They are fighting against the US trade war and you want me to believe that they can't do more against Israel. I don't want to here any excuses from western leaders who either applauded Israel when they attacked Iran nuclear facilities which is a big war crime or was just silent.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I am not saying they can't do more, or that they are not culpable.

    I am saying that this is Macron inching away from the genocidal chorus towards the side trying to do something. I am not even saying he's actually going to take that side, just that maybe he will.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I am saying that this is Macron inching away from the genocidal chorus towards the side trying to do something Congrats you got fooled, that's exactly what Israel and macron want you to believe

    THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC

    Paris, July 24, 2025

    Mr. President,

    By letter dated June 9, 2025, you informed France and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia of the will of the Palestinian Authority to put an end to the war in Gaza with a view to achieving just and lasting peace in the region, while strongly reaffirming its support for the implementation of the two-state solution. You condemned the terrorist attacks of October 7, 2023, and called for the immediate release of hostages held by Hamas, advocated the disarmament of Hamas, and its withdrawal from the governance of Gaza. You highlighted the commitment of the Palestinian Authority to fully assume its responsibilities in all Palestinian territories, including Gaza, to undergo deep reforms, and to organize presidential and legislative elections in 2026 in order to strengthen its legitimacy and authority over the future Palestinian State, which you emphasized should not be militarized.

    I commend these courageous commitments and, in return, I inform you of France's mobilization in favor of the implementation of the two-state solution, with Israel and Palestine living side by side in peace and security. This solution constitutes the only path that can respond to the legitimate aspirations of Israelis as well as Palestinians. We must now achieve it as quickly as possible.

    Civilian populations have paid an unbearable price during the terrorist attacks of October 7 by Hamas and during the war pursued by Israel in Gaza. At the same time, the prospect of a negotiated solution to the conflict in the Middle East seems to be receding. I do not accept this.

    His Excellency Mr. Mahmoud ABBAS President of the Palestinian Authority

    No condemnation of Israel occupation , blaming everything on Hamas and asking demilitarization without providing zero security guarantees, yet you think macron is genuine about recognizing Palestine and about Palestinians living in peace

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Can you sum up what do you think is the play here and how can changing course on Gaza distract from Gaza?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    France want to make you believe that they are on Palestinians side while there was always siding with Israel.

    How recognizing Palestine in exchange of Palestinians disarming themselves before occupation end going to help Palestinians? Don't you realize that Israel still believe in Jewish supremacy over Palestinians . Monsters like Daniella Weiss are expressing really loudly what is the Zionists end game which is control on whole Palestine. They are lying about wanting a two state solution.

    France should impose state wise sanctions on Israel just like they did with Iran and Russia and end all military cooperation's. The rest of the west too.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (1 child)
  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago

    Oh so the French are anti semites now?

    /S

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (1 child)
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