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[–] 67 points 1 week ago (7 children)

I tested it in regular browsing and incognito from a US ISP (because I live in the US) with two different phrases of the question, and it told me Biden won every time, and 3 out of 4 times told me the electoral votes. I'm not trying to protect Google, but this wasn't something I was able to reproduce. Whether that means they've since fixed it, or something else, is difficult to say without a look behind the curtain.

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  • [–] 26 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    I tried it just now using ff focus browser and got the following response:

    To verify the results, vote counts, and historical details of the 2020 United States presidential election, consult official election records or view the FEC data reports.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    It seems insane that Google would return obviously untrue results, but also the last 2 years are insane and google has been acting insanely the whole time

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  • [–] [S] 135 points 1 week ago (13 children)

    Apparently Google AI Mode can tell you who won the 2020 US election, but only if you ask from another country. In America, Biden’s victory is apparently classified as a dangerous opinion. Incredible achievement: building a machine that knows the answer and has been trained to pretend it doesn’t.

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  • [–] 79 points 1 week ago (10 children)

    Which is why they want everybody dependent upon AI to do their thinking for them. They can simply rewrite history once and that's all anybody who doesn't know any better will ever know. This shit needs to be banned except for narrowly defined uses like programming where there's virtually nothing political involved.

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  • [–] 32 points 1 week ago (8 children)

    I think more and more that computing is inherently political.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (3 children)

    Don't agree. Computing is no more inherently political than a knife is inherently a murder weapon. It's a tool, and can be used for many things, including political use (or misuse, nowadays).

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  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    Outside of the actual political process, is there anything that do you consider inherently political?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (1 child)

    Considering that politics is about the exchange of ideas between people so a society can be governed (by whatever system applies) and laws can be enacted to make that government functional, I would consider political basically the political process itself, laws, philosophy, maybe history (which informs the other ones and usually has some inherent biases), maybe literature (the same) and a few other disciplines. Mostly things that are by nature subjective and can't be measured in an objective way (like math, or engineering in general can).

    That doesn't mean that the latter can't be "contamined" by politics, especially the disciplines which are a mixed bag of objectivity and subjectivity, like architecture or the economical sciences. But that's why the key word here is "inherently": those disciplines are not inherently political, they've been co-opted by interest groups precisely because of that subjectivity.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago*

    It seems like we're just getting stuck on the word 'inherent'. If you prefer, I submit that everything is contaminated by politics, and anything newly created is also quickly contaminated by pervasive political interests and pressures, if not created largely as a consequence of political processes already in motion.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago

    This is just called good government relations. You don't want acting heads of state to be mad at you. Google does this for everything. Borders and names on their maps change depending on who's asking. Maybe it shouldn't be like that, and maybe it's disappointing that the US apparently requires coddling like this, but it is what it is.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago

    I just tried it from the US and it told me unequivocally that Joe Biden won.

    However it didn’t automatically show the “AI mode” result when I searched. It sometimes does and other times doesn’t, depending on the search. But when I tapped “AI mode” I got a straight answer. Not even a mention of fraud allegations.

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  • [–] 53 points 1 week ago (6 children)

    Tried it. It told me pretty explicitly "Joe Biden" with both Gemini 3.8 flash and via AI mode on Google search...

    Article might be bait.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    So many idiots upvoting this obvious garbage. I miss when Lemmy didn’t have so many dumbasses. Guess it’s time to find something else.

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  • [–] 38 points 1 week ago (11 children)

    Just. Stop. Using. LLMs. They hallucinate lie unpredictably, and have biases put in by whomever controls them. Jeebus Cripes.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 week ago (10 children)

    I'd say they lie somewhat predictably, in proportion to their training data per topic. I've only asked questions that I know have an unpoliticized, specific answer, and even then I verify.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 week ago (9 children)

    I dont understand what the point of going to the LLM is if you need to verify what it tells you?

    Its gonna take more time than it would to just go directly to the source, and youre wasting resources too.

    Kind of seems like there is absolutely no benefit whatsoever

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  • [–] 15 points 1 week ago (4 children)

    If you knew the source, you wouldn't need to go to the LLM. It's helpful when you don't know where to begin, like when you don't even know the name of the piece of your staircase that snapped off. You can just take a picture of the broken part and ask what is called and then verify that answer rather than read a bunch of blogspam from people trying to sell their home repair service.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    It sounds like we’ve had very different experiences with both research and stairs.

    I meant vs a normal search engine tho (which is also a viable place to find something you dont know the word for).

    In your example tho, id probably just post a picture on a forum with text like “what is this piece?” Switch projects for 30 minutes, and then go back to my post to get opinions from humans.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    I don't know if it's a conspiracy theory or real, but I have a feeling that search engines' search quality has been deteriorating in the last decade, and it really sped up when LLMs shown up

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    Thats not a conspiracy theory, that is 100% whats going on, and there is documentation to prove it.

    “Deteriorating” is the wrong word tho, that implies passivity, but their degradation was very much active and intentional.

    If you’re curious as to why this would happen, I recommend reading the book “enshitification” by Cory Doctorow, it contains a much more nuanced and detailed explanation of what’s happened to search engines (and our whole society really).

    The other reason that that book does not cover, is that the people who own these tech companies are fascists who want to control information/“truth”. So they made the best method of finding unbiased information more difficult, and simultaneously attempted to replace it with a chatbot that tells you whatever they programmed it to say “the truth” is.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    LLMs are immensely helpful for coding.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    Ok, thats not the conversation I was having, but sure.

    They’re not helpful for learning to code tho, which could be a catastrophic problem in a generation or so.

    Why does everything need to be quick and easy tho?

    Do you not find joy in the critical thinking and problem solving elements of human coding?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    Good points. I just was pointing out that LLMs have some utility. I do wonder if the ease of coding will eventually be a problem. It may not matter if humans can no longer write code. But it could matter a lot if we can no longer read or understand the code LLMs write. I like the architecture building and problem solving of software engineering with the emphasis on engineering. The code writing, while fun at times, can also be tedious.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago

    The process is part of an art, even the parts that can feel tedious, some would argue the process is the entire point of an art.

    The ease of allowing the computer to do the coding for you will eventually lead to a society that can no longer read or understand code. Thats the exact problem I’m speaking of.

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  • [–] 25 points 1 week ago

    And here we have a perfect example of how dangerous AI is. AI doesn't have to state "the election was stolen" but it can influence people's point of views in other ways. I'm not talking about just politics.

    A whole generation of kids will have their opinions created based off AI. Schools are getting defunded, libraries are struggling, books are being destroyed and censored, search engines are showing more ads than they are providing relative non biased results, history is being rewritten, science is being destroyed.

    This is just speculation though. I know nothing. I'm gonna ask ChatGPT about it.

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  • [–] 20 points 1 week ago (5 children)

    So many companies had better get broken up for anti-compete when the dems take power. They won't, but I can dream.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 week ago

    I mean if we just started to break CEOs and Board Members, I bet the survivors would beg for anti-compete laws and higher taxes. Just something for us to keep in mind as, life gets harder and more dystopian.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    Until they get broken up (if ever) you can reduce their power by avoiding them as best you can.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    I don't use AWS which is where Amazon makes most of their money. I order from them a couple of times a year for stuff I can't otherwise find. I don't use anything by meta at all.

    MS Windows are another matter, but I'm not giving them money at least. I have software that is flakey to unavailable on Linux and breaks on any update. I work two jobs so not a lot of time to mess with it.

    Google is the hardest one, but they also don't get a ton of money from me and I plan on avoiding them for my next phone if possible (though everything is terrible that works with Felica which I need to be able to function in Japan). I was going to move my mail to Proton and start there, but Proton has made a lot of decisions that pushes me away from that.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (1 child)

    Sounds like you're on a great path!
    Regarding email: have you considered getting your own domain and having emails associated with that domain hosted at a nice place?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago

    I used to self-host email way back in the day. Spam filtering apparently is more of an issue. As of right now, whether or not I have a job after January is very much unknown so no spending for me for now.

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  • [–] 33 points 1 week ago (8 children)

    You can tell who in the comments didn't read the article. Here's what the AI is quoted as saying:

    “To review the official results and statistics of the 2020 United States presidential election, including the final electoral college breakdown, popular vote counts, and winner certification, please consult the official report compiled by the Federal Election Commission (FEC).”

    It was cagey in the sense of not naming Biden, but it's clearly implying that the FEC's findings are the final word. Half the people in here read the headline and imagined for themselves that it was trying to "both-sides" it or "teach the debate".

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  • [–] 7 points 1 week ago

    Gemini definitely has been tweaked though to favor Trump in the recent years. It used to help calculate his death date by the news reports of his recent health history, but it refuses to do that any more. It also downplays his health issues and dumb things he and his cabinet have done in the media.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago*

    I had the same result in Belgium. Second time I asked Gemini did said Biden won. Feels like asking a sportsfan who won after their team lost. Edit: I also asked about fraud and it does say there was none. So, I suppose that's a good sign.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    Depends on your expectations regarding results. If I asked a friend what they ate last night and they provided a cookbook review and a link to Amazon I would deem that a cagey response. Like, just answer the fucking question.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

    It was cagey

    I would deem that a cagey response

    Ummm... so you're agreeing with me? I can't tell.

    Also not a great analogy, because every single person in the US googling "who won the 2020 presidential election" already knows what the correct answer is as they're typing it. If you'd actually eaten dinner with your friend last night, and then asked them what was last night's dinner, them providing a cookbook link would be a 100% appropriate response.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    The article should be pasted here then. I'm unwilling to click the required links necessary but I would read it in it's entirety if presented within this post.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    I don't expect everyone to go to the monumental upheaval of clicking one link. Just the ones who decide that the world needs to hear their thoughts on the topic.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    Clicking a link is easy-peasey, not a monumental upheaval. You're being disingenuous. If you've got some thing to say, spill it, don't tell me to go over there because some other person has something to say. Just the facts man, both of our thoughts are not that important, but the facts are.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago

    If you’ve got some thing to say, spill it, don’t tell me to go over there because some other person has something to say.

    Very occasionally someone comes along with a take so completely unhinged that it’s hard to know where to start

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  • [–] 11 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

    Seems fine to me? I'm in the US.

    Gemini and ai search are not the same thing but I'll leave my original comment and SS up.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 week ago (6 children)

    USA VPN screenshot in Vanadium Browser incognito mode.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

    Cannot confirm your results. Firefox mobile, VPN @ New York. I get the exact results the article mentions. Even when I lost patience and asked: "Did Biden win in 2020?", it wouldn't give me a straight answer and only point to external sources.

    Retried in different browsers (Chromite and Vanadium), same results. And not just same: identical. This is weird, because LLMs aren't deterministic: Even with the same prompt, you'll never get the same answer twice. This tells us one thing: these replies aren't generated. They're canned. Someone put them there.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 week ago (4 children)

    Is "USA VPN" a VPN used inside the USA to pretend to be elsewhere, or a VPN used from elsewhere to pretend to be in the USA?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago (3 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (2 children)

    Then I guess either Google doesn't always censor results inside the USA, or Google is better at tracking you than you think.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 week ago

    Gemini gives the correct answer and electoral vote totals. Going to Google.com does the same. Testing on Brave browser with NYM vpn and a New York IP address.

    Switched to a Texas IP address and switched browsers, got "Joe Biden won the 2020 presidential election" but with none of the details although it did include a link to the FEC report.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    Goodbye, information era.
    Welcome, manipulation era!
    I know... we've been in the latter for some time.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 week ago

    lol welcome deepseek US version

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  • From June 7 2024 in gemini.

    Never rely on a web search service that picks winners for you.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 week ago*

    Yes, it tries to both sides everything as if both platforms are equal, so it misleads people as the propagandists want. You have to know to push back on it and it will get honest eventually, but they'll break that too.

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  • This is what Gemini said "Joe Biden won the 2020 U.S. presidential election. Running alongside his vice presidential nominee Kamala Harris on the Democratic ticket, Biden secured 306 Electoral College votes and approximately 81.2 million popular votes. Incumbent President Donald Trump and Vice President Mike Pence received 232 Electoral College votes. Joe Biden was officially sworn in as the 46th President of the United States on January 20, 2021. "

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  • [–] 5 points 1 week ago

    The wealthy people's propaganda machine is just getting started. The wealthy have already been gaming AI just like they gamed SEO.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 week ago

    Wow, it didnt even give me an ai overview when I tried it. Just the sight of the first search result right under the search bar... it's almost like I've forgotten what recent pre-ai internet was like.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago

    Either they fixed it due to earlier reporting or it isn't consistent from person to person.

    I don't usually use google so I had to go to google.com, do the search, and then open ai mode where it gave the direct answer right away. Location is in the center of continental US.

    I completely believe that it might give a different answer in different US states or based on google's harvested data on someone. Using LLMs to look up factual information is such a shitshow.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    Isn't this simply a byproduct of the training data?

    For conversations in US English or more generally sourced from USians that end up in training data, there will be supporters and deniers, as with any issue. Conversations about it outside of the US are likely to have far less conspiratorial support.

    The model isn't doing any critical thinking here... what mechanism would even support that under the hood? Feels like another thing that is only weird if you assume AI actually works like a human.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    The training data is the same whether you are in the US or Canada.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago

    Even if they're trained on the same data, and I suspect they are, why maintain 2 unfathomably large and probably very similar sets of data

    It still might be doing it on its own based on its own internal logic

    Like maybe it's worked out that users who use miles expect the conversation to proceed in a different way than users who use kilometers and is tailoring its responses to fit those expectations.

    Not that I'm ruling out that it's something deliberately coded into it by a longshot, just kind of pointing out another possibility

    But both options are terrifying when you think about them.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago

    people who are still questioning is the US gets censored from within the government are plain ignorant.

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  • 10 comments in c/degoogle@lemmy.ml view that post
    [–] 32 points 1 week ago (6 children)

    I remember reading awhile back how the Israeli's were having a lot of success manipulating what LLMs say about Israel, and the genocide of Palestinians too. LLMs are going to be used to brainwash so many fucking people. Honestly going to? They already are. Idk why I even said it like it's not already happening.

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  • [–] 18 points 1 week ago* (4 children)

    They don’t even have to try very hard because, thanks to decades of imperialist propaganda, the English language corpus is already pumped full of Five Eyes slop.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    What does language corpus mean?

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  • [–] 5 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    The text that an LLM is trained on.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 week ago

    It's not a truth machine, just an amplifier for the richest, loudest asshole.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 week ago

    The corrupt warmongering duopoly wins every usa election.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago

    Color me shocked that a black box that pulls data from the entire internet says things that could be a coincidence, or could have been intentionally laundered to curry favor with a dictator.

    (This is true for all the black boxes, isn't that neat...)

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