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The Chinese government has invested heavily into AI, including a 60bn yuan state-backed AI investment fund which started pumping money into domestic developers this month. But Chinese consumers have proved stubbornly reluctant to part with their cash in many parts of the economy – including technology – meaning that many tech companies struggle to turn a profit.

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Beijing has doubled down on robotics – also known as embodied AI – as the key to rolling out the technology across society. Robotics is also seen as the answer to China’s demographic problems, such as the ageing population and the shrinking workforce.

But the demand for robotics is being driven by government agencies and research institutions, rather than everyday consumers, for whom the products are still too expensive and not yet practical for home use. Humanoid robotics and robotic dogs have been popular in the entertainment industry but are yet to be useful in home settings.

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This week the top officials in the Chinese Communist party are gathering for the fifth plenum, an important meeting that will lay the groundwork for next year’s 21st Party Congress. The Congress is expected to anoint Xi Jinping, China’s leader, for a fourth term. There is no appetite for risky or potentially destabilising policy measures before then, even if there is a chance they could boost the economy.

Any stimulus measure would be “high risk”, Wang said. “What if it doesn’t work out? Then whoever came up with that policy, that guy would be held accountable”.

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22 comments in c/world@lemmy.world view that post
[–] 62 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (10 children)

China treats AI more as infrastructure than something to directly profit off of, which is why this is a bit of a strange article. Their models are open weight generally, you aren't legally allowed to replace a job with AI, and their models are optimized to be low-cost and efficient compared to western models. This isn't a recipe for profit, but for public utility. It's expected that The Guardian would frame their strategy from the viewpoint of capitalists seeking to maximize profits, though. It's the same as when the CPC deliberately sank the cost of housing, which was being used as an investment vehicle, and capitalists complained about the market rather than highlighting the new affordability of housing.

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  • [–] 13 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (5 children)

    The idea of AI as a public utility is pretty cool. But I admit you are an early advocate for this and encourage you to keep pushing it. Edit: my take is highlighting how economically unsustainable the models are under hyper surveillance capitalism, which compliments your take i think.

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  • [–] 16 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)

    Again, this fundamentally confuses how AI is treated in China and equates it to the US. Profit is secondary to utility in China, at least when it comes to infrastructure and critical industries. That's why the biggest companies in China are all state owned enterprises. AI in China is being used for pattern recognition in manufacturing and agricultural work, to help identify patterns for medical diagnosis, etc. It isn't being used to replace workers. The costs to run, say, Deepseek or Qwen are far below Claude and ChatGPT, so projecting western handling of AI onto China doesn't make much sense to me.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 weeks ago* (3 children)

    This is not true either though. China is rapidly divesting from certain AI portfolios and is not immune to the economics of data centers especially as they are energy vulnerable. You can't just say something is a public utility (which is good btw) and hand wave away costs or operation.

    Im sure you realize Chinese state owned operations have gone bankrupt many times in the past and continue to do so.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

    I never dismissed costs of operation, simply that looking at stock market performance for AI in China to get a view of how it's treated and where it stands is silly.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 weeks ago (1 child)

    Yes true but this article is one of many and the pressures on China's approach are legitimately mounting. Fair point though. Stock markets dont mean much in china.

    Ironically though I think stock market volatility of Chinese AI stocks shows their stock market is a bit healthier on that portfolio compared to the US which has runaway growth built on massive USD quantitative easing.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 weeks ago

    I think the pressures are exaggerated. There's a lot of money in discounting China's approach, considering how much money is invested in the western approach. I agree, the volatility of the stock market in China does actually seem to point to it being more grounded.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 weeks ago (3 children)

    So are the stock market claims false?

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  • [–] 14 points 2 weeks ago* (2 children)

    I'm sure they're accurate, they're just not important. AI isn't seen as an investment vehicle in China.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 child)

    This doesn't make any sense if they have a stock market with AI stocks, these stocks have a value assigned to them, and that value makes up 40% of the value of the entire stock market. If these weren't important and aren't investment vehicles then why does any of the above exist? You're telling us that $2.4T evaporating into thin air is meaningless to China?

    I'd be willing to bet money that if this article were saying the exact opposite thing, the comments here would be all about how "China is doing capitalism better than the capitalists." I have zero love for our capitalists here and our absurd AI market, but this disingenuous tribalism is quite ridiculous.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago

    It's important to understand that capitalists do not run China. The CPC dictates how AI is treated. Chinese capitalists may have tried to make money off of AI like their western counterparts, but this is biting them hard when the CPC clearly demands that AI be developed in an alternative direction. The capitalist class may be trying to use AI as an investment vehicle, but they do not have a say in whether or not that actually comes to pass in a practical manner.

    A good analogy is the housing industry. Real estate was made an investment vehicle by the capitalist class, only for the CPC to intentionally deflate the housing market. Housing prices fell, which cost lots of Chinese capitalists lots of money, but they had no say in the matter. The CPC dictated that houses were for living, not speculation, and then capitalists were forced to deal with the reality set without their consent.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    I still don't know why it's so hard for people to recognize that AI is incompatible with capitalism. You can't just have an advanced autonomous system that increases competition drastically for extremely cheap and accessible be something profitable. It's as if capitalism is forgetting that humans need to earn money to pay for things?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    The end result of a capitalist approach to AI is for AI labor to replace human labor in effectively every sector

    That outcome feels inevitable. The question is how do we structure society then?

    We could have a near utopia with humans simply able to live freely, doing whatever pursuits we want while AI runs things (this probably ends with the extinction of humanity, since children mean splitting your finite resources)

    Or we could have a massive power struggle between the ultra wealthy and the average person over resources

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago

    China AI ain't gonna win. American AI ain't gonna win. AI gonna win.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    So AI is the modern equivalent to the US/USSR space race? Bankrupt your opponent into investing into a non-viable tech?

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  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    AI does have legitimate use-cases as something very good at pattern recognition. Because of that, it's helpful in manufacturing and agriculture, which is why China is prioritizing efficiency and being low-overhead. The US sees it as a threat, because their models are prioritizing profits and wild promises to gain investment, and this is why they will lose the "race."

    The actual second space is going on right now with the race to colonize the moon, funny enough.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 weeks ago

    Is this AI thing a new Starwars campaign like the one that brought down the Soviet Union? If so, who’s to win? If anyone that is.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

    The issue is the promised profits (edit or lets say productivity to avoid capitalist terms) simply never materialized and its a heavy burden on an over leveraged nation like china. US can buoy massive losses by pumping USD but that can only last so long too. AI is here to stay but the costs to run it, and the value you get out of it, are deeply imbalanced right now and portfolios are starting to show it. Name a VC who thinks AI is hot, none. Anyone with data centre stocks likely feeling some red lately. Its been estimated AI needs to generate 6 trillion in the next few years to cover data centre losses alone https://futurism.com/future-society/data-centers-trillion-capital-time-bomb-bain meanwhile revenues are trending downward. This is very similar to the Dot Com bubble.

    Edit: public utilities still have costs of operation even if not pursuing profit. More expensive operations still drag down an econony which is why if you build a state owned power plant you should aim for efficient ones not inefficient ones. These data centres are exacting mass cost on the chinese economy which is energy insecure. These pressures cant simply be ignored by saying oh its okay its a public utility. If we had infinite energy and resources sure. But no one does.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 weeks ago (1 child)

    Is this just due to the stockpiling of chips and data centers?

    I guess it makes sense coming from a country that built empty cities, but are they speculating the was the west is?

    Like where were they hoping to make money?

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  • [–] -2 points 2 weeks ago

    Like where were they hoping to make money?

    Probably by selling before anyone else does. Of course that is unrealistic but gambling addicts aren't known to be calculating or reasonable. This is a result from a long chain of bad decisions. The same kind of bad decisions big tech and it's investors have made in the West too. It looks like AI isn't one bubble but a pile of foam that's starting to melt before our eyes. Bubble by bubble. Today it's China and tomorrow it's us.

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  • 1 comment in c/programming@programming.dev view that post
    [–] 11 points 2 weeks ago

    What I've realized is that because of the hype, you've virtually always got investors willing to offer a service for free, in hopes of attracting users.
    Which means, if that service then tries to make that money back, users will quickly find another free offering and switch to that instead.

    Obviously, in theory, you might manage to offer such a unique service that folks won't find a competing service, but:

    1. a lot of these AI services do the same shit, because it is just language models and image models at the end of the day, and
    2. if you can quickly build that service then others can quickly build it, too, so if people are willing to spend money on your offering, you won't need to wait for competitors.

    This is a very different situation than a gold rush, and yet it feels ever more appropriate when folks say only those who sell shovels earn money from it...

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