Voting is easy, it takes very little effort. Even just the pretense of them not being warlords and the modicum of protection that pretense provides is worth the negligible effort of voting. It doesn’t mean you should stop doing more effective things, but those things are not undermined by voting in the least.
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Mamdoni enters the chat
Ahh, who threw his wife under the bus and profusely apologizes to genocidal Zionists.
What must it be like to live in your make-believe world…
Holy stockings, their memory shrinks from decades to a year, the closer to election time it gets. Hey, grasp at straws. Maybe you'll find something the size of a pool noodle to float.
Yes, Mamdani is such a Zionist bootlicker that the leader of Israel found it necessary to spend a significant portion of his address to the international UN complaining about the mayor of an American city. Are you just scared of him because he is brown or something?
At least the warlords of the past had to occasionally lead from the front and show why they rule.
I'd love to see trump try and run a sortie over Iran to drop another bomb, or try and lead a ship through the straits. The war would be over very quickly.
I helped organize a 600 person union, I was doing rapid response in Minneapolis, and I helped organize the Worker Assemblies in Minneapolis.
Both sides fucking suck.
Is there a side that while sucking is still better than the other? Both sides suck, but they are not the same.
To be honest with you, every time the dems have had power they have squandered the opportunity to prevent further corruption in this country, or to protect our future on a long enough timeline to negate the aftereffects of the next election cycle. That inaction and useless hand wringing is such a flaccid and disgustingly inept response to the very real dangers and very pressing concerns of the near future. If they can’t be trusted to combat republicans, then what’s the fucking point?
The point is that doing nothing is still better than doing the wrong thing. I would also say that neolib dems are not the end goal. The increase in DSA and WFP candidates is a step in the right direction that needs support to continue.
The civil/societal improvements of any period in history do require a fight but also legislation. The civil rights movements of the 1960s did not just have people marching in the streets or threats of fire being met with fire it also had legislators who had prior been opposing or ineffective that were able to work with newer more radical legislators. DSA and non-AIPAC candidates are those more radical ones and some (not all) of the dems are the opposing/ineffectives that can work with them.
Tldr; Its a lot easier to fight for better than simply for survival.
It’s hard for me to motivate myself to care when a lot of the times it feels like the “doing nothing” that’s happening is a coordinated and controlled opposition to an evil agenda that is also working toward the same goal, but more quietly. I get that we have a token few democratic socialists, but it isn’t enough to upset the establishment that takes money/bribes from the same donors, has similar corrupt interests, and allows what’s happening to happen with only some pearl clutching and finger wagging to show their disapproval.
At the rate that republicans are dismantling what precious little safeties there are for civilians, it’s hard to imagine some comeback renaissance where anything close to the damage caused becomes damage fixed before our country is completely destitute, and corpos poison every well they can get their greasy little fingers in to the detriment of everyone else here. It saddens me.
I think our answer is outside of politics. Liberal Democratic politics is only useful insofar as slowing the erosion of our rights while living under the ruling class. We have to get organized to have a national general strike and completely stop the system until we have an equitable society.
And then we could all ride our winged unicorns to the great banquet in the sky where nobody gets sick and everyone is a good person.
The mass strike on jan 23rd in Minnesota was so effective that over 50 CEOs sent a letter to the president asking for de-escalation, and reduced ICE presence in Minneapolis by 90%. After a 1 day mass strike.
Maybe you don't believe in the power you hold as a worker, but I do.
Only 49 states to go.
Why do you think I'm organizing unions? MN did great, but it was a practice run. We need more people to be organized to our cause. I cannot be in every state at the same time, but I can make my state respond better next time.
Other areas also participated in the mass strike, but it couldn't hold a candle to the MN turnout. Organizers like me know what they need to do in their state, but we're not ready for a national strike committee yet.
No. But I did watch as liberal politicians across Minnesota tried to coopt our worker assemblies in attempts to neuter our movement for their own political goals.
We know that the GOP is the enemy. But pretending like Democrats are our allies while they hold a knife behind their back doesn't help either.
We, the working class people, do all the work to improve this country. But democratic politicians want us to believe that only they can make things better. We've been waiting for universal healthcare since the 30s, during the great depression. Liberals pushed the Taft-Hartley act and went around the president to pass it. Liberals only liked MLK and Malcolm X after they died, and probably think Fred Hampton and Huey Newton had it coming.
If you're expecting Democrats to save us, you will be sorely mistaken.
Edit: also, point to the part where I said that they were the same.
I'm aware of both people, and their many accomplishments.
Believe it or not, I'm also a strategic organizer. There's a time for strategic compromise. We are not in one of those moments.
Take a look at the other conversation that stemmed from my original comment. I don't think that the solution involves working within the political establishment, we need a national general strike.
Right now, we need to generally build up union power, so the most important task is organizing unions, which is currently what I'm doing. As union organizing and class solidarity builds, we start organizing food sovereignty programs and local worker assemblies. As these programs and assemblies grow, we start building sublocal, local, subregional, regional, district, and national organizing committees to oversee the needs of the movement. Once we reach a critical mass of support (at minimum 3 million people, but aim for much more), we strike indefinitely until the ruling class capitulates.
Edit: tbf you did ask for some specific details that I never described. I have been organizing with CWA for 5 years as a worker-organizer, most of which were spent leading the campaign to form AQAU-CWA at Microsoft. Despite losing my lawsuit against the company for firing me, I maintain many friends and connections within CWA, and I'm still organizing with them at my new job. My local is part of several inter-union coalitions within Minneapolis and work alongside several anarchist collectives at community events. Several parts of CWA, including AFA president Sarah Nelson, support a national general strike. My CWA local worked alongside community groups, faith groups, and 5 other unions including SEIU for the mass strike on Jan 23rd.
The dems had a chance to defund ice and shut down the govenrment until it was eliminated. They stabbed us in the back instead.
Dems have defended and over funded ICE to help get it where it is right now.
The issue is the enemy is obfuscated. Like grapes of wrath... "Well who owns the banks?"
"And now the owner men grew angry. You’ll have to go. But it’s ours, the tenant men cried. No. The bank, the monster owns it. You’ll have to go. We’ll get our guns, like Grampa when the Indians came. What then? Well—first the sheriff, and then the troops. You’ll be stealing if you try to stay, you’ll be murderers if you kill to stay. The monster isn’t men, but it can make men do what it wants."
What's really fumy is people only noticing at election time what we say all the time.
how many times have you been through this. it's tiring even watching your side win. nothing big changes after, just the small stuff.
You don't know who's on the front lines because you've never been to an actual protest. And both sides implies that there are two different sides. There is not. There is one side and then there is the working class.
I’ve been to actual protests since the 90s. I can see that you’re the issue, not those protestors I was next to. I know how they vote, you would call them the boogeyman while they support your cause.
Edit: gotta love how many comments are getting removed by mods cause we all love conversation around here.
What a great idea. Let's return to this exact same circumstances that gave us Trump. Because the next version of Trump that Democrats give us can't possibly be as bad.
So vote how then?
The best answer is actually to pay more attention to your local elections than national ones, and vote based on issues that impact you directly.
Organize outside of the two-party system and against the system itself directly. Stop treating voting like it's possible to get political change with it.
I think it's pretty clear than it can get political change, the question is if it can cause the kind of radical systemic change that we eventually need
It would be reductive to say that elections make absolutely 0 change whatsoever, I agree, which is what I meant when I said "political change." The DNC and GOP fighting is bourgeois infighting over which factions of capitalists have power.
Clinton literally supported his primary run
Wasn't that because she thought it would prevent a republican win by pitting her against an easy opponent? Hillary was more stupid and arrogant than malicious there.
regardless of her reasons, she is to blame
Trump is 100% a biproduct of the dncs failure to protect the interests of the working class
For some reason I misread this as like power suit suits and thought it was a Warhammer 40k meme or something.
In many ways, Democrats represent a sectarian split among the Adeptus Ministorum.
What agency or power do you have in government? You are picking from a pre-approved list of would-be rulers.
Edit: and to be clear, I am not telling you not to vote, but for fucks sake stop pretending you have actually done anything until you have actually done anything. Voting is beneath the minimum for that.
Democrats are not left of center, they are not even remotely close to center. They are barely to the left, and in many cases on par, with trump
Irrelevant. Conservatives want everyone left of center to not vote.
It's not irrelevant, of you are a liberal you are NOT left of center
I mean, whatever your wanna call that area of the Overton window we're in.
If you like the phrasing "conservatives want everyone who isn't going to vote for them to not vote" better than read it as that.
Might as well just let the Nazis in I guess. I'm willing to burn down everything if I can't have everything I want.
The Nazis ARE in, electing the blue Nazis does nothing to get rid of the red ones.
Whereas keeping the red ones does?
No, there is always the choice of no nazis
Conservatives want everyone left of center to not vote.
How the Hillary Clinton campaign deliberately “elevated” Donald Trump with its “pied piper” strategy
I knew so many liberals in red states, like Texas, who voted for Trump during the primary in both 2016 and 2024. They thought they were setting a weak candidate up to lose.
Trump loved these voters.
Ok, then "Conservatives want people to only vote for them, and since they think people on the Left won't vote for them, they don't want them to vote. Oh and they don't want black and brown people to vote because they are racist." Is that now accurate of a statement?
I mean, yes, and also, if I lived in an encroaching neo-feudalist/climate-changed induced wasteland--not that I know anything about that--and we voted for warlord, I would probably still vote pragmatically/tactically.
I would be happy to entertain any viable alternatives.
Actually no, unions had to fight liberalism for their rights, same for women, people of color and those wheelchair bound.
But also the democrats are way less bad than the republicans, saying they are equal is just siding with the republicans because why bother when both are the same. Democrats are still horrible, don't get me wrong, but it is still easier with them in power rather than republicans
I'm very pro-union, but I dont think this is quite right. Unions have historically taken the lead on many issues of social justice for sure, and fought both parties to do so.
We also can't just ignore things like The New Deal etc. or the fact that historically the only Republicans to be pro-union were the long gone liberal Republicans. Most of the direct anti union legislation of the past 100 years has also been proposed/passed by Republican political will.
If we paint all 'liberal' politics with the brush of neo liberal garbage, we will fall into an all sides trap that will only further the rightward ratchet, undercutting actual meaningful progress.
Personally I see evidence this happening both inside and outside of unions, and it will be neo-con garbage that wins out. Were rights for women, people of color, those wheelchair bound etc. Conservative ideology? I think not.
Not libertarian either, as that ideology will in practice leave some more equal than others, aka the rich and the bosses.
Democrats intentionally kneecap themselves to prevent progress
Democracy is like a garden.
I learned that from Chance The Gardner.
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