Unfortunately it was more like Scientology with AA trappings. Gross old men controlling teens and young adults. Makes me wonder if Carr is just unconsciously replicating what he experienced as a young person by latching on to Trump the way that he has.

I think the reputation is partially earned. I've been in a few AA and AA-like groups over the years, and while I wouldn't say that AA itself is a cult, there are cults that use AA and similar recovery groups as recruiting grounds, and it's very possible that your dad got caught up in one of those. The sudden taking up of a new and very specific charitable cause is a big red flag.

Hard agree with your last point. I was fortunate enough to (eventually...) find a network of peers that helped me and I am doing much better now than I was, but it is a bitter truth that there are people who will find you when you're at your lowest and most vulnerable, and exploit you. I'm sorry your dad wasn't able to get the help he needed ❤️

Its not a controversial take, lots of us in the sober community don't mesh with AA. I would never bash another persons path to sobriety, but the way they look at people who get sober working the steps vs people who chose other paths doesn't sit great with me. I also don't like the direction AA steers people to feel helplessness around addiction and giving your recovery to a "higher power". But like I said - what works for some may not work for others, and I would never stop anyone from finding and walking the right path to recovery from them, as I have for myself.

If you see this and you are looking to experience sobriety and you are not feeling like AA is for you, there is lots of options out there like, Allen Carr's Easyway, SMART recovery and Recovery Dharma just to name a few. But also please if you are struggling, feel free to DM me. I am always happy to talk.

It’s not unheard of, but if AA is a cult it’s the dumbest cult ever invented. No dues, go/don’t go, do the steps (“which are ‘suggested’”) or don’t, don’t give your right name - shit if all cults worked like that they’d have to invent something else.

That said, some AA people are too Jesusy or big-book-y or frankly just bog standard racist or whatever and shouldn’t be held as representative.

It’s the case that a lot of people self-medicate with alcohol, then give up alcohol and don’t address the reason they were self-medicating appropriately. Basically becoming sober-and-unmedicated. Which ain’t great.

AA is from the 1930’s when the options were death, jail, or an insane asylum. It’s right to adapt it in places for what works best. People first coming in need solid, decent people to just be there and hang out. But that’s all. After about the first year more-or-less it can become what the person wants out of it.

But this place that Carr was a part of? That’s super fucked up.

This is a wild take about 12 step programs. Are you suggesting its similar to a pyramid scheme because one if its practices is to take a new member under ones wing and do step work?

There’s nothing in the big book that says you have to go to meetings. Good meetings are good. Bad meetings are bad.

I should have added another bullet point: "adherents lie about their cult".

In any case, you're not wrong that the Big Book doesn't expressly say meetings are required. And no, I didn't say that it did, either. Both the Big Book (and subsequent publications,) as well as literally every AA group strongly encourages meeting attendance, emphasizes the need for community and unity.

But if that hasn’t been working by itself, modifying one’s behavior is in fact the goal. “Coercion” and “co-dependence” should not be a part of it.

But it is part of it. that is, in fact, the largest part for why the meetings happen. That it's ostensibly for benevolent reasons doesn't make it less manipulative, or that the members or whatever are any less dependent on the whole.

“Spiritual but not religious” … but actually being very religious. Before meds this was pretty much all there was. Groups are pretty varied as to how they handle this. But again, if your group is too Jesusy for you, or otherwise not your jam, find a different group. Anytime someone talks about Jesus or “God” I always think “Okay, good to know: don’t talk to them about that”. The only point is to allow that maybe your standard thinking patterns maybe aren’t the best authoritative source on how to not drink. Mostly because everyone got there by thinking that.

And now that the nature of addiction is better understood, and the nature of it's treatment is more effect, perhaps then your cult should just go away and let secular systems take over. The 12 Steps, though, are inherently religious. the first step requires admitting/accepting that one cannot change by one's on self. 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, and 11 all invoke good to make the change that we are, AA teaches us, powerless to make on our own, and #12 requires the proslytization of that god.

the 12 Traditions don't make that any better, either.

and there's been a fair number of court rulings finding specifically that AA is indeed a religious organization. (DeStefano v. Emergency Housing Group, 2014; Jackson v. Nixon, 2014; Hazel v. Crofoot, 2014; Thorne v. Hale, 2009) Most of those lawsuits centered on whether it was appropriate for the government (or government funded entities) to coerce attendance,

the removal of personal agency. No idea what that’s supposed to be. Are you referencing the “surrender” part of being alcoholic? If so that’s a truly misleading way to say it.

AA teaches that individuals are powerless to change themselves, that is inherently a removal of personal agency. for fucks sake...step one is:

We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.

When people speak of religious trauma, and especially "christian shame"; this is what people are talking about. that inability, that inadequacy is deeply harmful.

targeting vulnerable and desperate people This should never happen. It’s always wrong, never endorsed, never intended, never supported by anything about AA. Yes, people do it claiming to be AA but that’s the thing - it ain’t. Very specifically.

AA targets alcoholics who are desirous of becoming sober. They recognize it as a problem, which is great. Many who seek help with that, though are vulnerable. Desperate to make a change, willing to do almost anything, and easily manipulated.

This is an inherent aspect of AA's religious nature. It's ingrained into the structure. It's fundamentally manipulative, and sleezy. And sure, the purpose may be benevolent. There certainly are people leading AA groups that absouletly only want their members to attain sobriety. but this inherent manipulate nature, this targeting of vulnerable people, and the leadership roles create a power dynamic that is attractive to certain kinds of people.

And those kinds of people aren't benevolent. It's inevitable that something lie Brendan Carr's AA sex cult happens. It's inevitable that there will be hundreds of others using that power dynamic to take advantage of, and abuse, the vulnerable people coming to those meetings.

And there is nothing that can salvage that problem, because AA only works by manipulation, and by removing peer pressure, and by stripping agency from vulnerable people, and creating a dependence on the group itself.

He’s been in AA since he was 17, he doesn’t even have that excuse. It’s just the Laura Loomer syndrome

No, not all of them are cults. Some individual AA groups (as well as other peer support recovery groups) are feeder programs for cults, but not all. AA being christian is incidental to cultism; non-faith-based peer groups can also be cult feeders.

Secondly, "some studies" can show a lot of things that aren't true. IIRC the majority of peer-reviewed research shows that peer support groups like AA usually have a positive impact vs. no peer support. Anecdotally, my peer support networks saved my life, more than once.

Like all peer groups, the group is as good as the peers. That's why you gotta shop around and find one where you fit in.

its reliance in a god that will lead them through addiction and self-reinforced personal dynamics for each chapter effectively makes AA an evangelical cult -- it's hard to imagine how much worse it could be.