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[–] 130 points 2 months ago (8 children)

Related to that, Jacob Boerema has implemented PSD Descriptor import support. Most of our current PSD support has been based on the the public Adobe specification. This document was last updated in 2019 however, and modern PSDs use a relatively undocumented text format called Descriptors to store many features.

The battle tested strategy of only providing old standards to others, like MS does.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 months ago (7 children)

    Don't use PSDs? I know people will say, "it's not as simple as that, they're industry standard", but if you say you'll only accept professional work in an open format, and you're the client, you have the control to change things.

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  • [–] 10 points 2 months ago (6 children)

    It's not about not using PSD.

    GIMP is all about letting people to open and edit any image files. Whether it is a medical images format (DICOM), bitmap image only used on smart message, (Nokia's Over The Air Bitmap), to open experimental niche format (Jeff's Image Format).

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (5 children)

    Maybe that's what it was. It doesn't necessarily need to be that going forward, as project putlooks anf goals change with time.

    Also editing is quite a lot of more work to support than mere viewing. As all tools and actions need to behave correctly - not jusbt the renderer.

    And something proprietary can hadly be a "industry standard". It can be "most common" or a "de facto standard". But all "industry standards" are by definition open as any industry worth its weight doesn't rely on or include a single point of failure anywhere within itself.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    "It doesn't necessarily need to be that going forward"

    This part does not make any sense. Making GIMP to be able to support any image format is a good thing. Especially for future file preservation.

    If it was merely industry standard, if a software already good, people will just use the default format. It already happen with various industries, like comic making in Asia using .CLIP (Clip Studio Paint) instead of .PSD

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (2 children)

    That's nice to have. For both GIMP and the industry's sake, priorities should be:

    • good UX
    • feature-wise competitiveness
    • in any (sensible) format

    GIMP is an alternative to Photoshop. It isn't a psd reader.

    Being the format jack of all trades yet master of none isn't too great of an idea. It'll just exacerbate GIMP's main current problem: an ancient UI Photoshop enthusiasts dread. A lot might consider switching if the bad GIMP UX was better than the also-bad Photoshop UX.

    If I had to say what my main design gripe with gimp is, that'd be modularity. Seperate the ui (skins) from the tools, effects and rendering (formats). The UI is especially egregious in its hard-codedness while effects are pretty well-supported.

    A few more apis would go a long way. Hell, even the closed Photoshop has open(ish) apis, since even Adobe know the value of an ecosystem and not just their internal r&d department!

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    @unwarlikeExtortion Sure - what additional things would you like accessible via API? Public docs for reference: developer.gimp.org/resource/apAs for separation, the styling of elements is done via separate (GTK3 subset of) CSS so that's fairly flexible. The GUI elements themselves are defined in C, which is less flexible but we do separate them out in source in our /widgets and /gui folders as best we can.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    If you actually follow the dev, they don't seem to prioritize PSD or even trying to be a Photoshop clone at all :)

    It's just that when a feature get introduced, a new feature from other format get supported. Such as upcoming vector layer and shape tool.

    I believe jack-of-all-trades of images is actually a good thing. All newer image editor, whether FOSS or proprietary are jack-of-all trades, like Graphite or Affinity You just can't confined people just to use raster layer, and not vector layer. Or using multiple app just to do some image editing.

    The problem is not jack-of-all-trades itself, but finding a good UI/UX to make it not complex for all user.

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  • [–] 80 points 2 months ago (7 children)

    I've recently tried using GIMP again and, as a past detractor, I've gotta say it's improved significantly.

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  • [–] 94 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Honestly so much better when they moved away from the "everything is a floating window" interface. I can find stuff now.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    I really liked the floating window approach. I don't mind the new way, but I enjoyed the floaties when they were the default.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    Funnily enough, back when it was floating by default, I always looked for the toggle to make it one window. But when they made it a single window by default, I found myself toggling it back to floating.

    I kinda like having both options. Floating could still make some sense, and it can do cool things that a single window can't.

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  • [+] 15 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (3 children)
  • [–] 16 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    To be fair, Photoshop peaked about 10 years ago and has been steadily getting worse. It's only a matter of time before they're neck and neck.

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    [–] 32 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Leaving this here for Photoshop converts

    https://github.com/Diolinux/Photogimp

    I use Affinity full time at the moment, but if they ever go paid, I’m running straight to GIMP.

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  • [–] 13 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    i completely switched to Affinity suit some 3 years ago at work. I was so excited when the affinity4linux install script dropped. but performance makes it near useless. slow and stuttering.

    here is for hoping gimp and inkscape can one day match.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    My thing is that I use the iPad app with the pencil. The last time I tried GIMP it was great.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago

    It is shocking how well-designed the Affinity apps feel on the iPad. I'm not entirely fond of everything being stuffed away in menus, but I see why they did it, and overall I've rarely felt so positively surprised about pleasant UX.

    Now if only they hadn't been bought by Canva… well, at least I still have my old Affinity 2 Suite.

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  • [–] 28 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

    Very interesting, thanks for the update.

    edit: I also love how the article credits every individual contributor for the new features they made, a very nice way to celebrate the group effort

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  • [–] 19 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    I've always wanted to see gimp on the same level of blender.

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  • [–] 10 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Blender is astounding at how much it can do, but boy does it feel like a project that suffered major scope creep. There seems to be years worth of "but what if it could also do this?" attached to it. As a novice Blender user I still find the UI incredibly difficult to work with.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago

    I'm hundreds of hours in and I still sometimes accidentally hit the wrong hotkey and spend 39 minutes figuring out why edit mode doesn't edit anymore, or why I can't weight paint in weight mode.

    Feature discovery has become more organic and less "unfuck blender" though, so that's nice.

    The grass is uh, slightly less brown on the other side I guess?

    Phenomenal program though.

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  • [–] 38 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    I love GIMP and no amount of tedious naysaying will ever change my mind

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago

    I've been using it for decades.

    If they'd make the macroing system idiot proof, maybe talk to some portrait photographers about how they use Photoshop and help them achieve their workflows, they could seriously shut down some Adobe.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago

    I did a few tutorials years ago. I realized that the way it did things was different from Photoshop and, in some ways, better. I could appreciate some of the design choices.

    The problem is that most people learn PS first and then don't learn Gimp at all, and then when they find out Gimp doesn't work like Photoshop, they decide that it sucks.

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  • [–] 45 points 2 months ago* (6 children)

    I've been using GIMP for over a decade. It's slowly starting to become one of the leading sources of frustration in my computing life. The more I learn about it the less it makes any sense.

    Not trying to be negative here. Just saying that a modernization is much needed and I'm really excited for this.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Honestly I switched to Inkscape more and more. Especially for logos.

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  • [–] 11 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    ironically i find inkscape vastly more intimidating than gimp, inkscape's interface is barely comprehensible at all whereas gimp is just slightly clunky.

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  • [–] 15 points 2 months ago*

    Krita for the win if you just need the drawing part. Left Gimp long time ago for Krita and never looked back.

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  • [–] 50 points 2 months ago (33 children)

    GIMP is shaping up to be (and actually already is IMO) the best editor out there for nondestructive work.

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  • [–] 23 points 2 months ago (31 children)

    Does the UX still suck though?

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  • [–] 75 points 2 months ago (22 children)

    Nope. You just made the mistake of learning something else first and expecting other tools to match it

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  • [–] 26 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    This is me with all CAD software 😭

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    My way into CAD software was 1. Dealing with DXF editors like QCAD. 2. Trying to tackle parametric CAD, I ran Onshape's tutorials, they have pretty good technique tutorials, like how to draft a paperclip, that are applicable to most parametric CAD packages. Then learning how FreeCAD's spreadsheet works.

    FreeCAD has a full-on spreadsheet built in, now it's feature poor compared to Excel or LOCalc but you can store and calculate dimensions there and then use them in the main drawing. Other software has features that accomplish this but it's not as flexible and familiar as a spreadsheet. FreeCAD has some usability issues but everything else out there is either drawbackware or subscription.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Something new to learn for me. Didn't know FreeCAD had that.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    I'll warn you now it can get a little tedious, because you refer to the data in a spreadsheet like referencing variables in a Python script. In most fields you can type in a dimension, you can click a formula button or hit the = key and then type in a formula. Or you can reference a cell in a spreadsheet. that might look like "=spreadsheet.A4" for the contents of cell A4.

    That isn't very readable and I don't trust it not to break if you add rows or columns or whatever, so there's an Alias function. You can give each individual cell a name. Which is slow and tedious. In the Addon Manager you'll find some macros, one called EasyAlias which, select a cell, click the EasyAlias button, and the cell to the right of your selected cell gets the contents of the selected cell as an alias. In other words, if Column B is a bunch of labels and column C is the actual data, highlighting B2-B17 and clicking the EasyAlias button will automatically alias C2-C17. That feature should be built-in. There's also a macro for clicking a dimension, clicking a sketch feature, and then semi-automatically applying a dimension. It's slightly temperamental but it works faster than typing "Dimensions.notch_height" over and over.

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  • [–] 16 points 2 months ago

    Expecting it to be the exact same and working in an expected way are different. Blender used to select with RMB instead of LMB like every other program in existence, is it really the users fault for finding that stupid?

    Following expectations and having a "smooth" workflow is something to aim for unless the standard is really bad. No need to fix what ain't broken

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  • [–] 16 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    This is true of pretty much all software. So many people expect to be able to pick up LibreOffice office and use it like they use MS office and then get immediately irritated the button doesn’t look exactly the same and give up.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah butlike, I am using Calc, and I use the arrows, and it just, moves the view instead of which cell is selected, which feels really backwards.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    I mean, sort of? I picked up Affinity Photo from Photoshop pretty quick because the UX isn't crap.

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  • [–] 9 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Again, no, because Affinity is more similar to photoshop.

    What exactly, is the "crap" part of gimps UX? I never had an issue with it.

    Then again I really liked it when all the elements are not in the same space, it is very similar to high production work using multi monitors and having the actual canvas the focus.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago*

    All I can offer you is what I'd consider vibes. GIMP looks 'old'. I don't mind programs looking dated, but I absolutely mind them looking 'old' since that, to me, implies a worse experience compared to 'dated'. It looks like it crawled out of the education software setting intended for mass adoption and only barely did so.

    To be more specific, things like proper spacing between UI elements & UI and text spacing go a longer way than I think most FOSS developers that don't work with UI expect. Everything feels cramped, like it is pressuring me to know what to do; there is a shocking lack of collapsible menu items and visual distinction is very low when parsing things like selected tool settings. Basic features are also somewhat unintuitive; when I go to drag a slider for opacity, for example, as an end user I don't think that single clicking and dragging will select the actual numerical value of the slider. I expect to have to double click, otherwise I expect the slider to simply do what I want it to when I left click and drag it left or right.

    I don't think anyone reasonable expects to pick up heavily featured photo manipulation software and simply know exactly how to do as they please, but there are some surefire ways GIMP contributors can clean up GIMP's UI and UX. I mean no ill will by this, because people who contribute to FOSS do so with their free time and money, but I feel like a lot of software developers and highly computer-literate users think 'good enough to use for everyone I talk to' means 'ready for everyone to use' and this simply is not true. Talk to any 'normal person' in a somewhat young* corporate design environment, for example, and they'll probably scoff at you if you suggest GIMP measures up to anything Affinity or Adobe. Those people are dicks, but their attitude often comes from a place of valuable opinion. It is not keybindings or solid basic features that they feel is missing, it's... polish, I suppose? 'Completeness'? I'm unsure of the right word to use but something about GIMP just feels half baked, visually and feeling-wise at least.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago* (1 child)

    And because it’s consistent. Gimp’s tools are random as all hell. It’s not just different, other tools have been designed by actual designers while Gimp’s community has been shooting them down for years. Leaving a confusing mess where shortcuts and tools have no obvious hierarchy or flow.

    It’s cool it works for you but there is a reason everyone is able to learn Blender, Photoshop, Capture1, Resolve, Darktable, Krita, etc and suddenly get enraged at Gimp. I can’t think of any other project that gets this hate constantly. Darktable UI is rough too and the vibes are completely different. The Gimp community is toxic as fuck to criticism and it’ll be a miracle if there is anyone left willing to spend their precious time providing feedback. I’d love to see that change but I think as we see in the comments that many have moved on.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

    It’s cool it works for you but there is a reason everyone is able to learn Blender, Photoshop, Capture1, Resolve, Darktable, Krita, etc and suddenly get enraged at Gimp.

    Yet I know a lot of people that use GIMP and have absolutely no problem with it. So is that true? I know people who cant learn blender too, but both of them are simply spend some time and it works.

    The biggest, by far, issue I hear about GIMP used to be the way it managed layers, AND the lack of being able to draw a primitive shape. Thats about it.

    Layers are better now.

    The Gimp community is toxic as fuck to criticism

    Citation needed. Never seen that before. The haters sure are though.

    I mean look at this right now: GIMP announces improvements, and people instantly have to bitch and moan about how it isnt any good. The other person who replied to me said it wasn't good because of "vibes". Are you sure the GIMP community itself is the toxic one?

    I swear people get all worked up because they don't know how to use it, then get weird about it and decide its wrong.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    i disagree. i started out on paint shop pro. moved to adobe. and then to affinity.

    i have given gimp several chances through the years and it just can't compete.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago

    As always, it depends what you're using it for and what your UI expectations are. But for me in particular, some people I've worked with, and presumably others, it can definitely "compete". It does everything I need it to, and my workflow is faster. And I can throw a copy onto any old machine without having to jump through licensing hoops or download a "download manager" or whatever bolt-on shit PS needs these days.

    Early on, for me, the killer feature was that it started up about 10x as quickly as PS, so I could start it, work, close it, get on with other work, whereas PS was so drearily slow that I'd leave it running all day rather than wait for it to launch, which meant that I had about half my RAM available for other things. It's better now, and a lot of that has been obsoleted by faster CPUs and more resources in everyone's computer, but I still remember how much of a chore it was to use PS.

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  • [–] 9 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Personally, I struggled somewhat until I've found the Search and Run a Command action. It's bound to / on the keyboard by default I think. Otherwise accessible via Menu > Help > Search and Run a Command.

    So if I'm clueless where a certain action is in the menu, I just press /, then type my action as I think it could be named, then try it out. This, together with simply my memory of how to do things, covers 97% of my needs. One time out of 20 or 50 I encounter something that I don't know, at which point I duckduckgo, and the experience can be much worse.

    Would you say this flow sucks? Or actually, it's fine? It's up to you to decide that.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    which part do you dislike? maybe because it fits my mental model very well, but i find the ui to be very intuitive overall. keyboard shortcuts are also pretty simple..

    and there's some user made config that makes its ui and keybinds work like adobe photoshop if thats what youre used to

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago

    Finding things just feels unintuitive. Like I can never find how to do a basic task like cropping. Or resizing a layer, it does shit like grabs the layer under sometimes, ir just resizes the selection box instead of the selection.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 child)

    When did it suck?

    I've been using it professionally for the last 3 years or so and it's no worse for UX than Photoshop, the 'industry standard'.

    Both GIMP and photoshop are very sophisticated and technical software (although Photoshop is becoming less so I should add).

    People who want a leaner set of tools should have a look at something like Tux Paint.

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  • [–] 13 points 2 months ago
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