I'm only half kidding. I'm a bit of a prepper and I have lots of powerbanks and devices that charge from USB but besides idling my truck I really had no other way to charge any of them in case of a long-term power outage which seemed a bit of an oversight on my part.

Not like this solves the issue. 30 watts (under ideal conditions) isn't much but it's a start.

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[–] 196 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (42 children)

Be careful. Those things are addicting.

That's how I started: a little 5v, 6 watt panel I stuck in the window to charge my phone while I worked. Then I wanted to charge some other stuff, so I got a 15W panel. 15w panel was nice, but 100 watts was much better, so I bought two 100W fold-up panels like you've got.

Then I bought a big 1 KWh power station that could supply up to 2000 watts. I take it camping and charge it from the two 100W fold up panels.

But, sadly, the demon had its claws in me and refused to let go. "Why should I only use that solar power two or three times a year?" the voice said. So I bought 4x 200 watt panels so I could use the power station to power my homelab and refrigerator during the day.

Still, that wasn't enough to satiate my addition. Now I've got 4 KW on the roof, 32 KWh of house battery, and a 10 KW inverter that is currently powering our house.

Am I satiated now? Only time will tell.

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  • [–] 42 points 3 months ago (15 children)

    Have you calculated how long it takes/took to pay for itself?

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  • [–] 67 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (3 children)

    All of the labor has been DIY, and I've got about $9,000 invested in the system components.

    Back of the napkin math, at current electric rates, puts my ROI at just under 9 years. If electric rates keep going up, it'll pay back even faster.

    Edit: Depending on how you look at it, ROI could be in as few as 1.5 to 2 years. This system is in lieu of a whole house generator that would have cost us about $7,000. Had we gone with that instead, it would never have paid for itself (other than peace of mind) and we would have been perfectly content. So if I'm only considering the price difference between this and the generator, it'd only have to pay back $2,000.

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  • [–] 18 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Yeah, buying peace of mind when it comes to self sufficient power generation has no price tag. Decentralization of the grid is a good thing regardless of if you "pay it off" or not.

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    buying peace of mind when it comes to self sufficient power generation has no price tag

    $10,000? $100,000? 75% of your salary for the rest of your life?

    It obviously does have a price tag at some point. If someone wanted true self-sufficiency they'd have to get a full solar setup plus a generator in case the grid went down at a time when solar power wasn't covering the needs. (That's likely if, for example, your power is knocked out due to wildfires, and the wildfire smoke is making the solar setup unable to produce power.)

    And, you can't really consider yourself fully self-sufficient when it comes to electrical power unless you have a n+1 setup, so you have a backup generator in case the primary one fails and needs to be repaired.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago*

    Sure if you want to be hyperbolic about it, but in my experience with people that argue like that, they will also say dumb things such as government owned entities such as schools, public transport, postal service or water access needing to make profit or its just all bad ..

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  • [–] 29 points 3 months ago (9 children)

    If you enjoy it, it already has.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (7 children)
  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago* (6 children)

    Time, in hours (H), equals average solar kilowatt hours per month (K), multiplied by the price of one kilowatt hour (P), divided by the total cost (C) of all the purchased components.

    H = (K * P) / C

    I'm sure if you were patient and dedicated enough, you could approximate each of those numbers using the info OP has already posted and get a general idea (weeks, months, or years).

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Or I could read the comment where he said

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago* (2 children)

    Time, in hours (H), equals average solar kilowatt hours per month (K), multiplied by the price of one kilowatt hour (P), divided by the total cost (C) of all the purchased components.

    H = (K * P) / C

    So you're dividing the average saving per month by the total cost and expecting to get hours?

    If we generously estimate a very high 3000kWh/month generated and high $0.40/kWh price and it cost OP $9000, then you formula is (3000×0.40)/9000 = 0.133 hours.

    Breaking even after less than 1 hour?!??! Extraordinary!

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  • [–] -1 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    It's pretty easy to cry about bad math, but it's a lot harder to figure out the right math.

    Don't worry, I'll try to do it for you again a second time.

    Power consumption varies. Use the average monthly power draw from the solar array, let's assume for demonstration purposes 1,000 kWh/month.

    Multiply that by the cost of 1 kWh from the power company, let's say 20 cents.

    In one month, that means you saved $200.

    Let's assume the solar equipment costs $1,000.

    The answer is 5 months, or 5,000 kWh.

    Sorry, I'll make sure the free work I do for you is better quality next time.

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  • [–] 20 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    I recently got a bluetti for off grid onsite work and it has awoken something in me. It's like carrying a wall outlet around with you, absolutely incredible.

    Needless to say I think I have caught the bug. Where would you point a feller who wanted to walk your path and learn more?

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  • [–] 19 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    I'm more of a hands-on learner but that can get expensive depending on the hobby haha. For going solar, I'm still very much in progress but definitely on the path to where i want to be.

    Basically the first step is to decide what your goal is. Do you want to go totally off grid? Just reduce your electric bill? Have backup power? All/some of the above?

    If you only want to reduce your bill, check into what's called grid-tied or "balcony solar". That's the easiest to get started with, but it requires cooperation from the electric company since you're feeding back into the grid. I can't do that here, so I went with a standalone/battery-based system.

    Once you identify your goal(s), you'll need to figure out what your "base" load is, and then how much your peak loads are so you know what size system to shoot for. Then you'll need to choose an inverter that can meet those with some extra capacity for unforeseen spikes. I started with a 10KW system, but it's also expandable up to 60 KW( 6 units in parallel). My house only has 100A service, so two inverters would actually give me more power than I can currently get from the power company lol.

    For the panels, you can really only expect to get 60-80% of their rated output most of the time. The rated output is under perfect alignment with the sun, at the perfect angle, and with absolutely no obstructions. In practice, you'll never see that. As an example, I usually only get between 3 and 3.4 KW out of my 4 KW system on the best of days. This is normal.

    For batteries, they're technically optional depending on your goals. If you just want to shave some money off your electric bill, you can forego the batteries and the inverters will happily mix PV and utility to power your loads during the day. e.g. If you're drawing 1,000 watts and only getting 900 watts from PV, then it'll make up the missing 100 watts from utility power.

    I sized my batteries based on my average daily usage plus an extra 10 KWh. We use about 20 KWh per day, so I got two 16 KWh batteries for a total of 32 KWh. That means, if there's no (usable) sunshine at all and we lose power, I can run the whole house for a little over a full day. Any sun hitting the panels will reduce the current draw from the batteries while also charging them if we use less than the PV is producing.

    The longest power outage we had was about 29 hours, but if we typically experienced multi-day outages, I might have gone for a larger battery.

    I had a much longer reply written up, but it barely scratched the surface. So hope this helps in a general sense but happy to answer any specific questions if I can.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago

    Thank you for the primer! I find it very interesting and you've certainly given me plenty of things to research and learn more about.

    I think my biggest goal is actually power stability but the cheaper power bill would be a welcome bonus. In my new shop the table saw seems to trip it's little built in circuit breaker a lot more often when it is cutting thick hardwood than it did in my old shop. Unless the blade is sharp as shit resawing on the table saw is a distant memory lol.

    I think it's because the run from the road to the house main is a long run and then from the house main 60 amps is routed out to the shop which is another long run out to the shops breaker box. Then from there I use a 25 ft 12 awg extension cord to power the saw and dust collector via an automatic vacuum switch. The saw very rarely tripped at the old house when the total run from the road to the saw was less than 50 feet and I never did it any favors. But now that it is hundreds of feet away from the source I think the voltage drops off and it over heats and trips the sawstops little breaker.

    I hope that made sense, I'm a carpenter not an electrician lol. What I think I need is a battery set up for the shop that acts like a giant Uninterruptible Power Supply to combat the "dirty" power and put the saw closer to the source. The ability to power a hybrid solar/dehumidifier kiln in the future from the shop without sacrificing power reliability would also be something I would want to consider.

    Thank you again for the write up on your setup!

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  • [–] [S] 8 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    I've been looking to get a so-called "Chinese diesel heater" to my shed to keep it warm over the coldest days in winter when electricity is very expensive and the two small radiators designed to only keep it above freezing can no longer keep up. However, those run off 12V DC and power supplies seem to be surprisingly hard to come by. Easiest solution would be a car battery and a trickle charger but I've thought about just setting up a tiny solar system instead because then I would have a kind of off-grid location to fall back to. My house doesn't have a fireplace either but the shed does (sauna). This would also allow me to charge all my tool batteries that require a standard outlet.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago

    For heating, I've been wanting to try a solar collector. Not sure if you've come across Greenhill Forge on YouTube or anywhere that covers his projects, but he does all sorts of off-grid stuff.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cPuVZjnbi4

    That's where he builds and tests several different styles of solar collectors for solar heating. The collectors are pretty inexpensive to build so that may be an option if you just want to (help) keep a shed warm.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    Am I satiated now? Only time will tell.

    I haven't heard you say a word about your solar powered electric car...

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  • [–] 13 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (2 children)

    Check back in 2-3 years when I (hope to) get an EV. I'm sure I'll be crowing about it then 😆

    In the mean time, would you like to hear about my solar powered lawn mower?

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    That's a weird panel to battery ratio. Guess you've gotta work on that now. Got more room on your roof, preferably south-facing?

    Though if there are ground systems that can aim the panels and you have room there, that could be really cool.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago

    The usable south-facing roof area is full, unfortunately. I'll have to do ground mount in the back yard and run a bunch of conduit if I want to add any more PV.

    The 32 kWh of batteries are made of two 16 kWh batteries in parallel. Since this system is in lieu of a backup generator, I have it configured to only draw the batteries down to 50%. That leaves the bottom 16 kWH available for emergency use. Basically, for day to day usage, I treat the battery as being half the capacity it really is.

    I've only been running this system for about 3 weeks now, but the batteries have been operating between 65% and 90% pretty consistently even running the A/C pretty heavily. They've been closer to low 60s this past week, but the wildfire smoke was choking out the sunlight Thursday and Friday.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (7 children)

    I got the power station first out of necessity, but am now at the point of desperately trying to justify adding solar panels even though I don't camp or anything. I fear it could become obsessive though.

    Maybe I keep can limit myself to only as many panels as I own violins? That would be a fair number… Or at least cap it off at the number of musical instruments in the house? That would leave some room to grow, if I can count my wife's ukulele collection!

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago* (3 children)

    Lol, def can become an obsession. First hand experience there.

    I've wanted a whole house PV system for a long time, and this is just me finally getting around to making it happen. SO and I were talking about getting a backup generator installed, but that would have been about $7,000 for something that would only get used two or three times a year since our power doesn't go out often (we have no heat or ability to cook when the power goes out, and it's always in the dead of winter when we lose power). The PV system I sketched out was about $9.000, but in addition to covering us during outages, we could use it daily to reduce electric bill so, unlike the generator, this would pay for itself over time.

    SO finally came around to my way of thinking, so here we are lol. My limiting factor is usable roof area. Of the roof that's south facing, only about 14x20 feet of it is suitable for mounting panels. There's a west-facing gable, but it's blocked most of the time by a tree. The east-facing side of the gable is available, but it's pretty much always foggy in the mornings here, so it wouldn't add much to the system.

    Unless I build a ground mount setup in the back yard, we're pretty much at the limit of how many panels I can buy. I'm kind of glad for that because otherwise I'd just keep buying them.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    I keep thinking about this. I can't justify solar when I live in a northern country and pay about $0.06 USD/kWh, but the value of resilience also counts.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    about $0.06 USD/kWh

    😭 The per-kilowatt hour rider fees on top of my base rate per kWh are way more than that lol.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Instead of looking at number of panels, look at the total wattage. How many watts does it take to charge your power station? 30W-100W portable solar panels like these should work well for that. You could even go a little higher than what you need because of things like inline charging and dual charging, so you can charge multiple devices at once and still keep the power station topped off. That's a good starting point.

    Next, ask yourself how much wattage you could regularly use it for on a normal day. Ignore high-wattage appliances at first, like refrigerators, a/c, heater, stove, coffee pot, hairdryer, etc. Basically anything that produces high temperatures or has a motor a motor. But what else could you power on it? Chargers, homelab, router, etc.? There's your second expansion. Probably some larger one-off panels and a couple power stations

    Lastly, ask yourself what wattage you would need to run all your necessities in the case of an emergency with a long-term power outage. That's when you calculate the high-wattage appliances. This will probably require a full rooftop solar installation.

    So no need to dive all the way in at first if you can't afford to yet, but don't let that discourage you from getting some smaller panels to start.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Glorious advice, thanks !

    It is a nice set of things to ask oneself. Motivating a question is way better for learning.

    What are inline and dual charging ? My internet query wasnt fruitful.

    Also, by "power station" do you mean batteries? Because I'm curious what specs to consider, say, for a camping day vs home setup

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    When I said inline I meant like charging a powerbank while another device is charging from it. And by dual charging I mean if it has two or more outputs it can charge multiple devices at once. In either case, each device you add to the load is going to require more wattage (or it'll just charge slower)

    And yeah, a power station is like a powerbank but larger. A powerbank might have 10,000mAh and fits in your pocket, can probably charge a phone 3 or 4 times on one charge. A power station is like the size of a lunchbox or a small cooler, might have 30,000mAh or more, and could probably charge a phone a dozen times on one charge. They usually have more output options too, instead of just USB. Some even have an A/C adapter.

    Still not enough to run a whole house on, but great for camping and power outages. If you wanted to run appliances on it you'd be looking at larger home batteries designed for rooftop solar, or even upcycled EV batteries.

    The main specs you want to look at are input wattage (will tell you what size solar panels are required to charge it), output wattage (will tell you what's safe to plug in where), and milliamp-hours (mAh, basically how much juice it can hold at full charge)

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    What about a neighborhood scale micro utility company/collective?

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  • [–] 39 points 3 months ago (9 children)

    Jokes on you when they nuke the sky

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago (7 children)

    LOL “…but we know it was us who blacked the sky.”

    —Morpheus (And not the Timothée Chalamet version)

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (6 children)

    also not the Highlander 2: The Quickening version where they blacked out the sky to stop global warming

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (4 children)

    Nice! I’m gonna have to go back and watch that… either I’ve never seen that version or I’d completely forgotten about that detail.

    And I even watched the TV show ;-)

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    It's probably the worst of the Highlanders. There was an updated version called The Renegade Cut that might be better.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (2 children)

    I had no clue they had made so many. Thanks for the bonus tip… was it just bad-bad or cheesy bad? Because I feel like a large part of the appeal for me is the vague cheesiness of the whole series.

    Edit: Got a Standard directors cut, and the renegade version… But in the process, I rediscovered that I recently downloaded Hot to Trot because it was on somebody’s list of worst movies ever. So I’m gonna have to watch that first 😝

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago* (1 child)

    Highlander 2 just makes no sense in general. They bring in some crazy shit about the immortals being aliens from the planet "Zeist" and ridiculous stuff like MacCloud riding a flying hoverboard happens.

    It's still worth watching at least once though

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    Oh man… it’s coming back to me now. Was there some kind of weird council of space-elders or something like that? I kinda vaguely remember a scene where MacCloud testifying and lights going on like campfire ghost stories when each person talks?

    IDK, I might be mixing in some Dr. Who 🤓

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  • [–] 30 points 3 months ago (11 children)

    Also be careful storing powerbanks at full charge, charge them at 80% or ideally around half for maximum longevity

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  • [–] 22 points 3 months ago (9 children)

    Also don't charge devices directly from solar power because voltage changes drastically due to sun movement and clouds. Better load a power bank and use that to charge the other devices as power banks are much more resilient to changing voltages.

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  • [–] 15 points 3 months ago (8 children)

    don’t charge devices directly from solar power

    Unless your power bank has a built in charge controller, this should also include your power bank. At its core, a power bank is nothing more than a big ass lithium ion (or maybe potassium ion, if it's newer) battery, just like the one in any other device.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (7 children)
  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    Indeed. They're all the rage in China right now (I AM NOT A TANKIE). Some are predicting they're the "next generation" of battery technology.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium-ion_battery

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Errr I am pretty sure those are currently only in use in prototyping and research, did you mean a different battery technology?

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago* (2 children)

    Yeah, I think I meant Sodium-ion

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  • [–] 54 points 3 months ago (6 children)

    All i need is a gun to kill the local prepper and I'm set.

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  • [–] [S] 28 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    A looter - finally!

    • That local prepper, probably
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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    The prepper will likely be camped and there will be signs someone's been in the area recently, the looter or looters would have a pretty big advantage.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Doesn't the defending side in a war usually suffer fewer casualties?

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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago

    Be sure to check your local raid boss's tier now before the content releases. A lot of them you'll be able to solo with the right load out, but if you're unlucky you'll need to start putting together your party roster now because they aren't all made to be soloed.

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  • [–] 26 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    I have stockpiled an absolutely MASSIVE amounts of manure. That shit is going to be worth a fortune in the future. Every paycheck, I dump at least 10% of it into buying the freshest cow pie I can find. The neighbors hate me, but we'll see who gets the last laugh when they sell their in-laws into indentured servitude to afford a bag of my brown gold!

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Doesn't it have a limited shelf life? Do you need to maintain it?

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago*

    Well, I keep it fresh by urinating on it. I collect all my family's urine in a bathtub so we can have an extra sanitary bath once a week, together, and then I dump the leftover on the pile with this big crane I rigged up outta grocery carts.

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  • [–] 24 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    This can power a Steam Deck. Good choice.

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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Can it charge up enough batteries to run a typical Factorio session? So until sunrise where you can start charging the accumulators again.

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  • [–] 23 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    The more solar the better. As much as is safe, reasonable, and affordable. A lot of little things add up. Great work dude!

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  • [–] 15 points 3 months ago

    I've got one of these for camping. It's great for keeping my phone charged when there is no power available.

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  • [–] 13 points 3 months ago (14 children)

    In a situation where you don't have constant access to abundant electricity, you would naturally reduce your use of electronics quite a bit. An e-reader battery lasts a long time, so load it up with a bunch of good and useful books and that panel will be able to power it indefinitely. Winter is tricky, still it would probably be enough to keep it going with sparse use. Or you could rig up a bike-alternator-car battery set up. But you need to think about how much power you can reasonably generate and base your planned consumption off of that. This makes me sound like a big prepper, I'm not, but I have been thinking about this a lot lately. Wonder why...

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    I mean… after society collapses, you can just raid a library for good old-fashioned paper books. Provided the idiots haven’t burned them for warmth.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    Have you ever carried a backpack full of books? They're heavy af. Probably easier to just take over the library and move everything else there.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Solid plan… until I drop my eyeglasses 😉

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (7 children)

    An e-reader battery lasts a long time, so load it up with a bunch of good and useful books and that panel will be able to power it indefinitely

    Paper books require neither and are almost equally waterproof. But i suppose if you already own both anyway that's a solid tip.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Paper books are fucking HEAVY and bulky. They're only practical if you don't ever need to take more than one or two anywhere. If you gotta be on the move, the extra equipment to manage the battery is much lighter than the books you would need to carry otherwise.

    Another advantage to an e-reader is that I can remove the battery and it's completely waterproof, as long I completely dry it before the battery goes back in, it can get as wet as I need it to, no problem. Books don't have that option.

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  • [–] -5 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    So in your head (or your internal plans) you see yourself running to the hills with your powerbank and e-reader, lol..that's silly and not in the least practical.

    Folks with actual plans, like me, have a library, a home that's defensible and productive with food, water and resources. We have community and a long-term prep scenario.

    If I'm falling back and fleeing my home I'm taking 2 or 3 books to help BUT that's not a prep strategy, it's video game zombie show fantasy.

    Books are far superior.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    I didn't say that at all. I said an e-reader is a better choice for people on the move, and books are a better choice for people who intend to stay put.

    I didn't say anything about whether moving or staying is a better choice because that would be an ignorant statement. Without knowing the exact scenario that will occur, it's impossible to say whether leaving or staying would give the greater chance of survival.

    I didn't say anything about whether books or an e-reader is "superior" overall because that would be an ignorant statement. Like everything else in this world, each choice has pros, cons, and tradeoffs that make one better in certain circumstances, and the other better in different circumstances.

    But if making shit up about what people say is what it takes for you to "win" arguments on the internet, more power to you; that reflects a lot more about you than it does me.

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  • [–] -1 points 3 months ago

    My point being that running to the hills to escape the zombies and jackboots is a far less practical scenario than supply chain disruption, infrastructure breaking down and societal services collapsing, which is already happening and has occurred recently.

    Having back up resources and information electronically is hardly a primary use case, in my experience.

    You complaining that books are too heavy is feeding into fantasy scenarios whereas functional systems that have been in place for millennia is far more practical and resilient.

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