Fuck religion.
post
This is what MAGA wants but for their own religious views
went viral and prompted reports to local sharia authorities.
You must be a real piece of ... to waste your time to report something like that.
There is an episode of King of the Hill where Bobby decides that he’s just never going to have sex and never have kids because that’s clearly what his parents want. Sometimes I’m honestly surprised that religions like this haven’t caused their own population crisis.
Living in Indonesia really soured me on Islam. It's the largest Islamic country on earth and they sure do give it a bad name.
Muslims all around the world give Islam a bad name. It's just inherent to the religion. Tolerant and liberal minded Muslims basically ignore large parts of the religious dogma. And anyone who doesn't and follows the scripture to the letter is a shit stain human being.
If you've read the Bible, you know this isn't only Islam. It's in most religions.
However, Islam is more than just a religion. It's also designed to be a state. It is purpose built to fully encapsulate the law. That's part of what has caused the issues, but the followers aren't typically any worse than most other religions. It's the governments, who are following the legal portion, not just the faith portion, which causes issues.
Check out the documentary "The Act of Killing" and the book "The Jakarta Method" if you'd like some historical context for modern Indonesia.
Imagine being a species that can put one of itself on another planetary body, yet at the same time inflict unbearable pain an another for expressing affection.
Wait isnt like 20% of indonesia christian? And also there are buddhists there no? Do they also get punished for not following religious law that they dont even believe in? I know this is how it works in most countries in the world but they dont have this much religious and cultural diversity.
In a Christian state, kissing in public is also prohibited. People in the West have forgotten this because, here, countries are secular, even though Christianity is the dominant religion.
For example, in my country, Portugal, before the Carnation Revolution of April 25, 1974, which introduced secularism, kissing in public or even holding hands was prohibited. The penalty could range from a simple fine to imprisonment. There was even a crime of "vadiagem" if you were caught in public, say, in a park, doing nothing during standard weekly working hours.
The previous regime in Portugal, the Salazarist Estado Novo, is generally described by historians as a quasi-fascist, Christian-Nationalist regime.
This happened in the province Aceh where everyone is Muslim like 99% of the population. Aceh is the only province in Indonesia with Sharia Law. Aceh has a special autonomous status, has basically been this way since the Dutch conquered the area. Because the province will go to war if they can't have Sharia Law plus a lot of money flows into that area from Saudi Arabia. They will use that money to fund terrorist cells if they have to.
You lost me at terrorist cells.
How do you believe every terrorist attack in Indonesia of the last 30 years has been organized? Those weren't done by lone wolfs. A cell system is just a way to organize a group of people so an attack can't be traced back to the actual leaders and people funding the attack, since the people in the cell only have enough information to orchestrate the attack.
What, the mali bombing? That was the last I heard about, how many years back, 15 or so?
Yeah you only heard of Bali bombing because it killed many white people. Many attacks have happened since that one. The last suicide bombing was four years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_Indonesia
I have heard about their bullshit in New Guinea. You want to talk about Terrorism.
Or we could speak about the Indonesian Military, the true threat, that is involved in illegal logging, and palm oil plantations with slave labour.
Islamic terrorists are the least of the problems of the country of indonesia, the military is the main problem.
So you are moving the goal post haha. We weren't talking about the military. Just because the military is a bigger problem doesn't make Islamic terrorism not a problem.
I think they two issues aren't removed from each other. The controlling faction is the islamists now.
We shoudl remember the military orchestrated the murder of millions of indonesians in living memory under false communism allegations with the backing of the cia..
Indonesia is majority muslim, the ruling class. It's a huge number of groups in the country though. The old president was strong armed into handing off the presidency to the military figurehead that rules now. They staged a bunch of astroturfed protests and idk what else.
It is looking dark, there and everywhere, the illiberal forces are united in destroying liberal democracy, not that indonesia had all that much of that to begin with but still. We need to organize, we are stronger, if united.
Sounds like Aceh… Yep, it's Aceh. They've been strongly Islamic for centuries. Their Free Aceh Movement (Gerakan Aceh Merdeka) was a pain-in-the-ass even for Suharto, Indonesia's military dictator throughout the 1960s/1990s.
No surprise that most tourists are limited to Bali.
Limited as in tourists usually only visit Bali, not that they are forbidden from visiting anywhere else.
Bali sees more than twice the foreign tourists, and is promoted more heavily by the government itself for foreigners.
I just read about some people that did some bang bus in indonesia, brang bros, and they sentenced, I think it was a woman, to like 30 years in prison, or charged, but it's not like they have jury trials charged is convicted 90 plus percent of the time in such countries.
This is the same province that previously struck a woman with a cane 140 times as a punishment for drinking alcohol and premarital sex, only stopping when she lost consciousness.
Wow Islam is so tolerant amirite guys? Where are all the apologists from that thread the other day?
There are 2 billion muslims in the world. They are not a monolith. You would struggle to find muslims who agree with each other on all fronts if you tried. Jumping from these muslims did something bad to all muslims are intolerant is nuts and I encourage you to reevaluate and maybe speak to actual Muslims sometime.
Religion in general can be a tool of oppression, this is not unique to Islam. Do not fall for your ruling class' villification of the other.
From the article, it seems like this isn't popular in the rest of the country either
Aceh is the only province in Muslim-majority Indonesia that enforces a version of Islamic law. The country’s secular central government granted the province the right to implement religious law in 2006 as part of a peace deal to end a separatist war.
Amnesty International Indonesia said the public caning in Aceh was a form of human rights violation that was cruel, inhumane and degrading to human dignity, carried out despite the fact Indonesia had ratified a convention mandating the abolition of inhumane punishments.
It should be noted that you're fighting a strawman. The OP was criticizing the religion islam, not muslims as a group, and certainly not making the claim that "all muslims are intolerant". To clarify, this doesn't mean other religions are particularly "good" either - it is possible for many things to be bad simultaneously.
To address your strawman however, I will note that the problems with islam run very deep. The fact is that a majority of muslims, globally, hold views that I would consider, amongst other things, to be misogynistic (feel free to update me on that if there is a more recent global study with the same scope).
If something is the norm in a group rather than a fringe idea, it can hardly be considered extremism either. Given that islam has many of these misogynistic values close to its' core, it isn't particularly shocking either and not too far fetched to attribute a share of the blame to the religion, regressive as it is.
As such, considering the above, I consider islam to be bad on the whole. Note: this doesn't mean that someone is inherently "bad" due to being muslim, or that "good" muslims don't exist - I am acquainted with a few.
To say Islam is intolerant is to generally claim that Muslims are intolerant. I don't think you can seperate the claim from its implications.
I think it is worth noting that Islam was a liberatory movement in the age of its emergence and continued to be so for long after in many cases. Especially for women. It only became oppressive as it became part of the state. This was furthered by European imperialism in West Asia and North Africa. The Islam you see today can be dramatically different from the Islam of 1850.
Religion is superstructural. It is not the source of misogyny nor is it the source of oppression generally. It can be used to justify these things sure but it is not why they exist. I won't pretend to fully understand the social relations within West Asia and their origin but it is certain that there are material rather than idealist reasons for their current state. Removing the religion would not remove the impetus for misogyny and oppression it would only remove its current justification.
These people must overcome these cultural struggles on their own terms and in their own time while we work on our own as well. The reason I worry about the original commenters perception of Islam is because such perspectives are utilized by our governments to justify imperialist aggression against Muslim majority countries. This imperialist aggression is wrapped in the language of helping their oppressed groups but never does anything of the sort. Cultures do not grow under imperial boots.
To say Islam is intolerant is to generally claim that Muslims are intolerant.
Absolutely not. Organized religions, such as Islam and Christianity (or rather, Catholicism, Shia etc.), are themselves power structures perpetuating values.
Criticizing a religion is no more a criticism of the individual believers than calling a national government (like the Russian one maybe) evil is equivalent to claiming all who share that nationality are evil.
I would also strongly dispute your claims regarding the history of islam, but don't have time to take that discussion right now. My statements regarding islam as a religion in the current day I will stand by however.
Criticizing a religion is no more a criticism of the individual believers than calling a national government (like the Russian one maybe) evil is equivalent to claiming all who share that nationality are evil.
If one is to this then they must make it clear which the original commentor did not. They did not say "the religious hierarchy within islam is oppressive in order to preserve existing structures of power", they just clearly implied Islam is intolerant without any addition of context. I believe my interpretation was reasonable within those bounds.
I also encourage you to look into how Bedouins treated women before Islam. Or anyone for that matter, it was often unpleasant to be a part of their society and Islam made their lives better.
Eh?
Do I need to say more than "Russia is evil"?
I tend to assume people are saying what they are meaning. OP said "Islam is so tolerant" (sarcastically, implying the opposite) not "muslims are so tolerant".
Language has meaning. In my country, statement no. 1 is constitutionally protected expression (criticism of a religion, whether in speech or print - originally implemented to prevent the church from censuring people) whilst statement no. 2 might get you dinged for "agitating against a demographic".
I also encourage you to look into how Bedouins treated women before Islam. Or anyone for that matter, it was often unpleasant to be a part of their society and Islam made their lives better.
As mentioned, discussion for another day.
Now I gotta sleep tho but interesting chatting :)
cya
Do I need to say more than "Russia is evil"?
Yes lol, you do need to say more than that.
Anyway it seems like we just have different standards for how clearly our meanings should be articulated. Especially on topics such as these. This is likely because I come from a country where Islamophobia is so endemic. Statements like the original commenter made are something I often hear said sarcastly from people I know to be bigots. In my experience it has been people like this who supported our brutal invasions and/or sanctions of Iraq, Iran, Syria, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. Often times they are also the type to be sympathetic to Israel (or at least were at one point). They use their supposed disgust with the bigotry of the foreigner to mask their own bigotry and support for imperialist plunder. So perhaps I overanalyzed that persons statement but perhaps my experiences let me see things you might miss.
Finally, I wasn't suggesting we discuss the revolution in Bedouin society caused by Islam I just think it is cool and interesting and something you should read about when you get the chance.
The OP was criticizing the religion islam, not muslims as a group, and certainly not making the claim that “all muslims are intolerant”.
Trolls sneering 'wow so tolerant!' could not make that distinction with a gun to their head. At best you get mewling and bickering over the absolute "all" as if it's any better to say "most" and clearly mean "including Moe down the street."
a majority of muslims, globally,
Given that islam has many of these misogynistic values close to it’s core,
This is you failing to make that distinction, yourself.
I am acquainted with a few.
Right, you can say it because you have a black friend. He's one of the good ones.
Bigotry is pointing to assholes in a foreign country and saying 'that's why my friendly neighbors should be deported.'
Archive link? I am assuming it was their family and not the government that did this to them but I'd like to read it and find out without giving my email.
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