A video that captured the brutal arrest of a Black college student pulled from his car and beaten by officers in Florida has led to an investigation and calls for motorists to consider protecting themselves by placing a camera inside their vehicles.

The footage shows that William McNeil Jr., 22, was sitting in the driver’s seat, asking to speak to the Jacksonville deputies’ supervisor, when authorities broke his window, punched him in the face, pulled him from the vehicle, punched him again and threw him to the ground.

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  • [–] 71 points 1 year ago (16 children)

    Officers must have reasonable suspicion of a law being broken to require ID: https://legalclarity.org/can-a-cop-ask-for-your-id-for-no-reason/. The case you cited was because of an expired plate.

    He was within his rights to ask what law he violated before complying. The cops mentioned he needed his headlights on for the conditions, but he was skeptical, so he asked for the statute or a supervisor. If he refused after that, fine; but the cops escalated way earlier and with more force than was reasonable.

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  • [+] -10 points 1 year ago (15 children)

    Dude it is in your citation:

    One of the most common is during a lawful traffic stop. When an officer pulls you over for a suspected traffic violation, you, as the driver, are obligated to provide your driver’s license, vehicle registration, and proof of insurance upon request.

    The case law's super clear. You don't get to ask for a supervisor before providing ID, you don't get to argue the grounds for the stop before providing ID. They're not even required to explain why they pulled you over first, although almost all cops will do just because it's a reasonable question. If you want to have a conversation instead of give your ID, they're allowed to ask you to get out of the car. If you want to have a conversation instead of getting out of the car, they're allowed to use force to grab you out of it. Most cops will take at least some time for the argument, it makes their case easier the more clearly it's laid out what happened and the longer the person refuses to ID, but it looks from the bodycam timestamps like there was about 6 minutes of arguing before they broke his window, which is a little shorter than usual but still not like "ID" "no" (smash).

    If you want to have a whole separate conversation about what the law should be, that would be fine, but there's a whole genre of YouTube videos where people learn that's not how it works and get arrested for it. Absolutely you should not be giving this as legal advice. It's actually a common feature of that genre that people will while they are being arrested cite what people like you on the internet told them, as where they got their legal knowledge, and sort of ask for a do-over now that they understand that they can actually be arrested because of following that advice. I have never seen the police agree to the do-over.

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  • [–] 32 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Also, the video didn't appear to be making a sovereign citizen argument, just asking why he was pulled over. Pulling someone over simply for driving while black is not a lawful stop. But like you said, there are 6 more minutes of video, so we have no idea the details of this specific case, but that doesn't mean it's lawful for every case.

    I'm fully aware of that entire genre of videos from sovereign citizens. /r/amibeingdetained was one of my favorite subreddits before leaving reddit.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

    Here's the whole stop from the bodycam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5i88VDrI3VA

    Edit: I think it's grand that people are downvoting the literal reality video of what happened lol. Big "Trump firing the people who give him labor statistics he doesn't like" energy. People are clearly just salty about my other comments elsewhere, which fine I guess, but I think it's strongly indicative of an overall "Don't show me reality, I don't like it, I will attack because I already know this doesn't fit what I like to believe" mindset.

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  • [–] 20 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Yeah, I saw that after I replied. That doesn't change the fact that ID is only required if the stop itself is lawful. Officers can't just pull anyone over because they "feel like it," otherwise the traffic stop itself is unlawful.

    Obviously he would have had a much better time if he complied, but that's a pragmatic solution, not a legally required one. Unless the officers can show to a court what offense warranted the traffic stop in the first place, failure to identify is not by itself an offense.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Failure to use headlights during "inclement weather," and failure to wear a seat belt.

    Is that bullshit? Yeah, arguably so. He'd have had a pretty good chance of beating it in court. Cops also show a marked statistical tendency to pull over black people more than white people, and the statistical tendency only shows up during the day and evaporates for traffic stops conducted at night, which makes it pretty hard to argue that it's any kind of correlation other than causation. So yeah, you could definitely say the initial stop was bullshit.

    Unfortunately, a traffic stop for specifically identified infractions is absolutely a lawful stop even if it's kinda bullshit. And the guy really screwed himself over by refusing to ID, obstructing their attempts to get him out of the car, and then resisting them arresting him, all of which are unambiguous crimes which it's gonna be a lot more difficult for him to argue his way out of in court that the initial "inclement weather" bullshit. Maybe he can make something out of the fact that they used excessive force once he started obstructing, but more likely he's just going to be screwed. It's not like the system gets less racist if you're a giant unnecessary pain in the ass about it.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Bleh, you're right, they did provide the infraction, even though it was BS (it was cloudy, but it was not raining). I still think the excessive force gives him a pretty decent chance at winning.

    I suppose I was making a more general argument that may or may not apply to this case. I am just uncomfortable telling people "just comply, or you'll make things worse," even if pragmatically that might be true.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    I am just uncomfortable telling people "just comply, or you'll make things worse,"

    Yeah, I get that. A lot of it depends on the details. If ICE is arresting your family for literally nothing at all, and you may never see them again, then yes, not complying is going to make things worse, but it's hard for me to say that people "should" comply for that reason. Fuck 'em.

    This is not that. This is just a bullshit traffic stop. I get that the frustration comes from the racism inherent in the system, it's not just the traffic stop, but you gotta be smart about when and how to resist. Getting stubborn and hostile with some random traffic cop and getting tons more charges thrown at you as a result is not going to undo the racism. It also bugs me that people (look around this thread) have some kind of idea that they're legally in the right if they decide to start arguing with the cops in this way, which... if you're going to decide to do that (either when getting the ticket or with ICE or anywhere in between), you should have a clear eyed understanding of what you're getting yourself into.

    Basically, I definitely don't think it's a good thing people on the internet telling each other how it works and setting up for more things like this to happen to drivers who don't expect how it is going to play out.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago

    Used by some power tripping asshole it's their easiest path to making the stop violent.

    Ding ding ding

    The system still has some massive problems. If your goal is less police brutality and reform of the system, though, committing crimes in front of the police and refusing to cooperate with them in any way unless they use force is not going to be a real good way to go after that goal.

    I've seen situations that are way worse than this one. One guy got spooked (like legitimately spooked, you could tell he was for-real scared that the cops were going to do something to him) when he got stopped for an open container in the car. They asked him to get out of the car, he took off instead, crashed his car, foot chase, they tackled him, he ended the night with a bunch of felonies and his car totaled. That's one reason I think this stuff is so absurd and dangerous when people say it on the internet; sometimes it translates to real world behavior too. You could tell that he was influenced by it, and that's part of why he thought stomping on the gas and making the situation a hundred times worse was the right play.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Dude, it's in your citation: it does NOT permit officers to use violence to achieve identification. They are paid by the hour to wait for a warrant to clear. Anything beyond that is unlawful use of force.

    No offense, but do you have a degree in law? Or any training at all? Or are you just making things up? Please respond

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    it does NOT permit officers to use violence to achieve identification

    I searched for "violence" in both citations and did not find this statement.

    Refusing to ID (edit: if you're stopped for a certain list of reasons, which includes "a traffic stop on the road" as probably the most unambiguous no-wiggle-room one of them) is an arrestable offence. Police do not need an arrest warrant if the crime is literally committed in front of them, to their face, and they're allowed to use force to effect the arrest.

    I think your degree in Bird Law needs updating. I'm not really interested in having an extended he-said-she-said about it, people can read the citations (or investigate the literally thousands of YouTube videos which depict examples of the "ID pls->no->get out->no->window break->ohmygawd->arrest" story arc), and decide what they want to believe about how it works.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    "During a lawful traffic stop"

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    You don't get to make that determination during the stop, that's for the court to decide after the fact.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    That is true, but if the court decides it was unlawful, then the failure to identify charge will also be dropped.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    In which (unlikely) case, all that happened to him was damage to his vehicle, some minor injuries, an arrest, tow fees, having to show up in court, maybe some bond, and cost of a lawyer unless he wants to roll the dice with a public defender. And, in return, he gets nothing. But he didn't get any fines or probation or maybe jail, or a criminal record (although he does have the arrest on his record). Victory!

    (This one's a little more complicated because they actually did use excessive force, so there's a slim chance that he might be able to sue them civilly and win. In which case it might be completely worth it. But, I would say in about 99% of these cases where someone disagrees with the reason for the stop and so decides to refuse to ID, the only additional results that happen to them are all heavily on the bad side.)

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (29 children)

    I'd be interested to see if that ruling would apply with video evidence and no illegal fire arm or reasonable suspicion on the part of the officer. That case seems to uphold the idea of a search on the grounds of reasonable suspicion. That's not the case here.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (28 children)

    Here's the full bodycam footage. I was right about him failing to ID.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5i88VDrI3VA

    He commits a misdemeanor 21 seconds after the stop begins.

    Cop: "Give me your driver's license, registration,"

    Dude: "No."

    Cop: "... and proof of insurance."

    Dude: "No. Call your supervisor."

    That "no" is enough to arrest him. Most cops won't do it, they'll have a conversation about it instead of just busting out the cuffs, but if you go out of your way to piss them off, sometimes they will not. We're past reasonable suspicion at that point. He pulled him over, explained the reason, and asked for ID, and the guy refused. This is an excellent way to get arrested, and refusing to cooperate with the arrest is an excellent way to get dragged out of the car and thrown around. IDK what the guy expected to happen. The only reason this is news is because the cop hit him in the face, but this was 100% a dude-created situation from start to finish.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago (24 children)

    The stated reason for the stop is driving without headlights on in inclement weather. Its not raining, its full daylight, a bit overcast. In my opinion the stop is not justified, so the officer has no legal basis to ID the driver.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (23 children)

    In my opinion the stop is not justified, so the officer has no legal basis to ID the driver.

    ... said any number of people, right before they got arrested.

    There are circumstances where you can refuse to ID. Probably the only video I can ever remember which featured a supervisor showing up and actually taking the side of the suspect, was a cop hassling a person who was taking video of a police department, some patrolman came out and asked for ID, and the guy told him to get lost because he wasn't doing anything. That sort of falls into "bold move Cotton" territory, but it is legal, and when the supervisor showed up he told the cop so and ordered him to just leave the guy alone.

    Refusing to ID on a traffic stop because you disagree with the reason for the stop is going to get you arrested, it's going to make it harder to fight the original citation even if you are in the right, and it's going to get you additional charges that are a much bigger deal than the original traffic citation. That's just reality, both legal reality and how it's going to happen in practice. You don't have to agree with the cop to have to provide ID, otherwise any random person ever pulled over for anything at all could just tell the cop to get lost, I don't agree, and the cop would have to leave and the person could go on their way.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (22 children)

    You see you your interpretation of the law strips you of your 4th amendment rights? You are saying that the police have the right to stop and ID anyone at anytime.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (21 children)

    No. There are a lot of circumstances where you can refuse to ID. A traffic stop for a specific infraction isn't one of them. There's actually a lot that goes into the courts trying to strike a reasonable balance.

    Wait, am I crazy, or did I literally give an example of a situation where you don't have to ID in the comment you're replying to? I feel like probably the useful content of this conversation is at an end...

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    A traffic stop for a specific nonsensical and nonexistant infraction

    It wasn't raining.

    There was no reason for them to escalate.

    This is a common tactic used to go after people of color, it isn't remotely new.

    Why in the absolute fuck are you advocating for people to just swallow fucking boot all the damn time?

    Challenging this nonsense is the way, historically, any change has happened. You are just arguing against people doing the right thing and saying "but its OK because cops are taught to do this".

    No shit. Thats the fucking problem. He knew what was happening and what would happen, thats why he asked for a supervisor.

    The fact that you think this would have gone substantially better for him by just complying shows a complete and utter ignorance of the history of policing.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

    Allow me to update with a personal experience:

    "Can I see your ID?"

    "Sure, here you go. You know this is bullshit, though. My brake lights aren't out. Those are parking lights"

    "Well now this is happening, get out of the car"

    And then I was arrested for suspicion of being under the influence (because I had the gall to talk back to a cop), and my car was impounded for being unfit for the road.

    Just to note here - no, I was not under the influence of anything, and my brake lights absolutely were not out. My friend recording audio on his feature phone (because thats how long back this story goes) got the charges dropped, and the goddamn manual in the fucking car proved me right about the damn parking lights.

    Yes this shit happens. Yes this shit continues to happen.

    Yes, you are incredibly fucking ignorant if you think otherwise.

    Edit: I hit send too quickly because of how pissed off your comment made me.

    That's new, like within just the last few years that it started happening consistently. How did that change happen?

    BECAUSE PEOPLE STARTED PROTESTING AFTER THIS SHIT KEPT HAPPENING, AND PEOPLE FUCKING DIED.

    Thats how.

    Edit 2 because of how much this pissed me off.

    And its still only the worst and most newsworthy examples, and even for those many end up being a slap on the wrist at best.

    People still getting fucking shot and killed in their own bedrooms because cops can't get a fucking address right, attending talks where they get told how hot it is to get laid after you killed someone, with far right pieces of shit being ingrained in the police for literally fucking decades, and you really think just fucking comply is a "smart" decision.

    Ffs, the absolute goddamn privilege in those replies.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I am saying that starting to yell at every cop that pulls you over and refuse to ID yourself is not really going to change the system, if you did it for a thousand years

    What in the fuck do you think brought about this:

    burning down the 3rd precinct

    Because if I fucking recall, George Floyd was not fighting back.

    So what in the absolute fuck are you talking about?

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    The fact that you think this would have gone substantially better for him by just complying shows a complete and utter ignorance of the history of policing.

    Or approval of the entire history of policing.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    Im the video you cite (guy in Texas holding signs?) the officers ask for ID and he refused because they have no legal basis to ask him. Similarly in the Florida traffic stop, the officers have no legal basis fir the stop. End of story. You no more have to comply with police, when they are not legally executing their duties, than you do with any random stranger on the street asking for your ID.

    The Florida guy was not stopped on suspicion of having committed a crime, because driving without headlights during the day is not a crime. Therfore there is no legal basis for the officer to demand ID. If you think that the officer _thought _ driving without headlights is a traffic violation , and was therfore justified in the stop, you just overturned the 4th amendment, as any officer could claim they thought x or y is a crime and therfore stop anyone yhey choose, for any reason they choose.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    I think I'm just going to say this one more time and then be done with this thread: There are a lot of people who offer the legal theory you're saying here, right before they get arrested on charges that stick. You can find literally thousands of them on YouTube.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (9 children)

    Please show me some evidence of an illigal stop leading to an arrest and conviction on the charge of the original stop,or failure to ID.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (8 children)

    You're defining this as an illegal stop. It was not, in the legal terminology, an illegal stop. That's part of where your confusion is coming in, I think.

    I'm happy to find you one of these bodycam YouTube videos of someone failing to ID and getting their window busted out, and then look up the records and see if they actually got convicted of the failure to ID (or obstruction or whatever the statute is where they are). It may take me until later today. Would that influence you, if I found that?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (6 children)

    Is driving without headlights in daytime illigal in Florida? That is the stated reason for the stop. If that is not in fact, illigal, then the stop is illigal. Regardless if the officer thinks it's illigal.

    As an analogy, lets say an officer stopped you for wearing your backpack on your left shoulder, which he says is in violation of some ordinance. Is that a legal stop?

    And to answer yoir question, if you find footage where the initial stop was deemed unconstitutional, but the subsequent conviction fir failing to ID stands, I will accept that I am wrong.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/what-is-an-unlawful-police-stop-23464

    If the cop sees you (allegedly) not wearing your seat belt, and then pulls you over for a seat belt violation, that's a legal stop. I sort of agree with you that the headlights thing is bullshit (and briefly looking at the internet I think you're right). For all I know the officer realized that the headlights was bullshit, and randomly added in the seat belt thing. But, regardless, him saying the issue was the seat belt is going to hold up in court completely, and so refusing to ID based on that is going to get you in trouble. Your lawyer is going to have a hell of a time making that argument, especially if you then obstructed and resisted arrest.

    IDK where this "if I don't agree, then I need to physically resist the cops, because it'll be okay" thinking came from, but that's not how it works legally. That's part of why I am taking time to disagree with this, because people do get busted for crimes because of listening to what the internet told them.

    And to answer yoir question, if you find footage where the initial stop was deemed unconstitutional, but the subsequent conviction fir failing to ID stands, I will accept that I am wrong.

    What was a stop where the initial stop was even deemed unconstitutional? If I knew that, then I might be able to answer you. Except for some landmark cases, I don't really know of it happening. I feel like that doesn't happen very often. I feel like people getting charged for failing to ID is very common (including where they are trying to argue on the side of the road that the stop is improper in some way, and that's why they are failing to ID and it's okay.) That's sort of my point.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Well, I watch the video when it camentonlohht a fewndays ago, I don't remember anything about the aeatbelt. But the reason the officer gave to the driver was driving without headlights in inclement weather, which would only be a violation if the weather were inclement, which it wasn't, and the driver states that. The officer doesn't get to change his mind as to the reason for the stop, thats well established in law.

    As to physically resisting, the driver did not physically resist, he passively resisted, refusing to unlock the car door andnexit the vehicle. He didn't at any point lay hands on the officers.

    A stop where the initial stop was deemed unconstitutional: Here's one . The first one on YouTube. I admit I haven't watched this one, but then same judge is on YouTube presiding over dozens of similar cases, and there are many other similar videos.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Well dont I look the fool. I'm pissed off now, I didn't watch the video. Inhave seen like 3 where tthisnsame judge throws out the case based on an illigal stop. Ill find them tomorrow. As to yoir question, you keep leaving oit the illigal part. Yes, not providing ID is an offence if the initial stop is legal. Now you are again correct, the officer does claim that the driver wasn't wearing a seat belt, so I suppose the initial stop can be justified, which makes refusing to ID an offence.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    A few crucial points you are missing:

    There's absolutely no legal obligation for the cops to answer any of your questions. Feel free to ask them anything you want, but they don't need to answer. Further, they can lie to you about why they pulled you over. I've seen videos where they were stopping an armed violent offender known for resisting arrest for their bigger crimes. So the cop pulls them over and wants to keep them calm so they only tell them something like seat belt or light violation. Then get them out of the car so they can't reach for hidden weapons. And YES there are plenty of videos of people reacting innocently asking the same questions this guy asked only to suddenly pull a gun or something.

    I'm sure all states have some law that requires you show your license when pulled over (mine definitely does) . Even for flimsy victimless traffic violations. Even if you absolutely are wearing your seat belt and had video evidence to corroborate, you would still need to show your license if pulled over for a seat belt violation. It doesn't matter that you are innocent. The arguments you'd make on the side of the road are the exact same ones guilty people make. They'll swear up and down they were wearing their seat belt knowing they weren't. Nothing differentiates them from the innocent on the side of the road.

    You keep harping about it not truly being inclement weather, but that doesn't matter. Even without the seat belt issue included, they are legally allowed to come up with RAS after the stop. That's one I personally think is utter bullshit but it doesn't change the fact it's legal. After all of this if it turns out he wasn't guilty of the other infractions but they figured out his registration was expired, they can just swap the citation to that even if that wasn't considered until after the stop was done.

    This is not supposed to come off as defending cops. I'm all for legally resisting as much as you can, but this wasn't the case here. This was one to fight later in court. This doesn't further the cause of police accountability. This just sets it back and is one more example of the general public being woefully ignorant of the law that strengthens police resistance to positive change.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    That "no" is enough to arrest him

    Is that "no" enough to break his window, drag him from the vehicle, and assault him? You're defending your internal racism with flimsy DIY law. Get a degree my friend. Then you can talk.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    It is possible for both sides to be wrong in this. It was wrong for the driver to fail to comply. It was wrong for the police officers to assault this man. Not everything is black and white (lol, except this is black and white race thing...)

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    Completely agree. Yeah, it was definitely wrong for them to hit him in the face. Their whole job is to deal with people who are doing what they're not supposed to, without losing their shit in turn.

    But yes, the initial cop was literally just doing his job, and Shouty McCanISpeakToYourSupervisor escalated it out of literally nowhere from his side, and then got apparently surprised when the cops' next move wasn't "Okay, well if he says 'no,' I guess we can't really do anything, free to go have a good day."

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    So they didn’t have probable cause, he politely asked to speak to a supervisors. There was no risk of him fleeing nor danger to himself or others. He just didn’t comply with what seems like an illegal order. You think that’s grounds to escalate? Grounds for police brutality? And it looks like pretty solid evidence they lied on the arrest report.

    And you’re comparing it to a case where there was probable cause for the stop, where no one disputes the basic facts, no one claims police excessive force, and the only question was whether the evidence was admissible?

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    Whether or not they have probable cause is a matter for the courts. Polite or not, you're dealing with individuals who have little to no oversight and even if they do something illegal they often don't have to answer for it. The moment to insist on probable cause and reasoning is afterwards. Let them rack up their bill first.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    So they didn’t have probable cause

    Grounds for a traffic stop is RAS, not probable cause. It's a lower standard. Regardless, the officer clearly met both standards, because (according to him) he literally saw the driver not wearing his seat belt. That's the grounds for the stop.

    he politely asked to speak to a supervisors

    Which was completely fine. Not handing over his license was not.

    This kind of shifting the reason for why something bad happened, from what you actually did that caused the bad thing to some other totally different behavior, is a classic tactic of people getting arrested and narcissistic family members the world over. Anyway, he got arrested for failing to provide ID (and then refusing to get out of the car), both of which he's required to do on a traffic stop. Asking for the supervisor was fine, it was unrelated to anything.

    Also, as a side note, the supervisor will pretty much never override the cop in circumstances like this. All you're asking for is for another person (often with less patience and more authority) to come there and then assist the other cops with whatever they're planning to do with you. It shows a total lack of understanding of how anything works to demand a supervisor thinking that somehow once they arrive, your situation is going to get any better.

    He just didn’t comply with what seems like an illegal order.

    You can't argue on the side of the road why the cop shouldn't have pulled you over. If that were the system, no one in the history of the world would ever get a traffic ticket, because they would just say "I don't agree with the reason for the stop, so no you can't have my ID" and everything would grind to a halt until the cop's shift ended and the person got to drive away.

    The system is, the cop can write you a ticket, and if it's bullshit, you get to go to court and fight it (in a calmer environment with an unbiased judge in charge of the proceedings and with you having plenty of time to prepare and even get a professional to help you argue it, if you want.)

    Honestly, I'm just going to stop there. You guys just have no idea what you're talking about, you just see "Cop man bad!" and that's as far as it goes, and every other bit of fact and logic has to bend its way around that central axiom. IDK man. Good luck. I hope you do not get pulled over and try this, it would not go well for you if you did.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Incredibly lazy to outsource your ethics to your government and its police force. Even if "they're allowed to do that" which is far from clear here, doesn't make it right in any way. If anything it would be grounds for a riot.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    You gotta talk to the legislature, tell them that if someone gets pulled over the rule should be that they get to just tell the cops to go fuck themselves, and it's okay because ACAB.

    Start a movement, see if you can get a whole city where the city council's on board with it. Try the experiment. Things aren't as fixed as you think they are, a lot of it is changeable. (Well, on the local level at least, IDK if we wait a year you may get your fantasy coming true where the federal level is defining what law enforcement is, and no one who's a "civilian" can exercise any control over it.)

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