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nah it's natural (lemmy.blahaj.zone)
submitted 1 year ago by to c/microblogmemes@lemmy.world
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[–] -1 points 1 year ago (8 children)

No, I won't give them the out. This isn't them simply being outgunned on messaging or outmaneuvered by corporate interests.

Theirs is a story of objective dereliction of duty.

Previous generations leveraged the future of their descendants to improve their wealth and economic growth. Those same generations and wealthy twats are now vying for global control as right-wing governments take power.

Yeah, there was corporate propaganda at play. That does not negate the duty of the electorate to stay informed. They could have looked into it, but they didn't because it was an inconvenient truth.

We've had strong indication that CO2 was going to fuck us since 1896 from research by Svante Arrhenius. And if you want to go waaaaayyy back, the idea that a small percentage of atmospheric gases could absorb infrared radiation was 1859 by John Tyndall. Oh, or maybe we can start the clock at 1824 when Joseph Fourier (yes that Fourier) first proposed the idea of greenhouse gases.

So after 200 fucking years of knowing about this, we've still done fuck all.

So yes. Many of our parents were willfully ignorant and didn't prioritize this issue because ... The Mexicans are coming across the border and we can't have that even if we'd really like to kick off a green energy revolution. AREGGHHHH! IF ONLY IT WEREN'T FOR THOSE DAMN ILLEGALS THEY WOULD'VE SOLVED THIS!

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Previous generations leveraged the future of their descendants to improve their wealth and economic growth

    Previous generations developed the industrial infrastructure that granted historic consumer surpluses (and waste), but vanishingly few of them reaped the full benefits.

    This isn't a problem of generation, its a problem of economic planning (or lack there of). The post-WW2 dedication to a fossil fuel economy was a military decision more than a civilian one. Capturing and holding large sources of fossil fuel made up the bedrock of the Cold War.

    Blaming this decision on Meema and Pepe is ahistorical.

    We’ve had strong indication that CO2 was going to fuck us since 1896 from research by Svante Arrhenius.

    We've had evidence of anthropogenic climate change, but also ample evidence of sizeable economic benefit to petroleum products - plastics and fertilizers not being the least of it.

    We had the opportunity to engage in long term moderate and sustainable use, but squandered it in the name of short term consumer-driven profits.

    But, again, this wasn't a decision made by a mass of proles, democratically. It was dictated from corporate boards and corrupt Congressional legislatures and Pentagon war rooms.

    The knowing didn't matter, because the public was never given a real choice.

    Many of our parents were willfully ignorant and didn’t prioritize this issue

    Efforts to prioritize the issue was repeatedly thwarted through elaborate and labor intensive lobbying campaigns, gerrymanders, bribes, blackmail, and direct physical violence.

    FFS, you had the national guard deployed to brutalize pipeline protesters just a few years ago. And that's a drop in the bucket besides the sacks and pillaging of native reservations, the toppling of foreign governments, and the endless FUD broadcast globally to defame ecologists and activists.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    We had the opportunity to engage in long term moderate and sustainable use, but squandered it in the name of short term consumer-driven profits.

    But, again, this wasn't a decision made by a mass of proles, democratically. It was dictated from corporate boards and corrupt Congressional legislatures and Pentagon war rooms.

    I think, ultimately, we agree. The main difference is I don't think "but, but, they were lied to" is an effective excuse to remove blame. In a democracy, however dysfunctional, the people share responsibility for the government the people elect.

    Voter participation since the 70s is garbage. We're just now breaking the high water mark of the 60's - 65% presidential ; 50% midterm.

    I am not saying it is their fault. Just that they are at fault. I'm at fault. I could have protested, but I believed too strongly that we'd get there. I never conceived we'd go backwards. I just thought if I kept voting right, we'd get there - slowly.

    That is my shame and blame to carry. And I won't give others a pass for their inaction or choices.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    The main difference is I don’t think “but, but, they were lied to” is an effective excuse

    If you're sighting data collected in 1894 but discounting the education and media necessary to propagate that information to the general public, I'm not sure how the information is expected to disseminate.

    Yeah, people were absolutely lied to - insidiously and exhaustively. That necessarily shapes their world views.

    In a democracy, however dysfunctional, the people share responsibility for the government the people elect.

    Liberal democracy is barely worthy of the term. Congress has had a single digit approval rating for decades. The president regularly is underwater in public support. The parties are privately owned and operated, periodically selecting their nominees without any democratic input. Voters are systematically gerrymandered and disenfranchised. Popular candidates are smeared, removed from ballots, denied access to debates, and outright prosecuted.

    What do you say to the 60-80% of the population with no material representation in government?

    I’m at fault

    Unless I'm talking to a CEO of an energy company or a sitting Senator, I'm not clear what you are supposed to have done differently.

    The modern moment is historically overdetermined. It's hubristic to pretend you have any control over it.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (2 children)

    Yeah, people were absolutely lied to - insidiously and exhaustively. That necessarily shapes their world views.

    Yes, but people also see the truth. The information is there. Some people choose to believe the lies because it's convenient. They don't want to look into it. They don't want to listen to scientists, and instead choose to listen to politicians and companies.

    Voters are systematically gerrymandered and disenfranchised. Popular candidates are smeared, removed from ballots, denied access to debates, and outright prosecuted.

    Where are the riots? Where were the protests as Republicans red mapped? Why did they stop? Where was the blowback when Florida didn't give felons their right to vote back? Where are the riots when Republicans vote to remove the ability of citizens to add initiatives to the ballot?

    What do you say to the 60-80% of the population with no material representation in government?

    You don't need a vote to effect meaningful political change. Women couldn't vote. Until they could - through collective action.

    Everyone chooses how to react and interface with the world. All the distortions in American democracy didn't materialize overnight.

    People formed unions despite being murdered by pinkertons. Just because the system is fighting against us, doesn't absolve us of our responsibilities.

    The modern moment is historically overdetermined. It's hubristic to pretend you have any control over it.

    Correct my misunderstanding, but this tells me you have given up and think that nothing could have been done unless those with real power suddenly became altruistic in the past 3 decades.

    And on that point, we may fundamentally disagree. I have to believe that citizens can effect change individually or collectively despite everything stacked against them. If I admit that the power differential is intractable and hopeless, then our only hope is a sudden wave of noblesse oblige to overcome people's greed, and we are truly fucked. Hubristic or not, I have to believe we have agency.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Yes, but people also see the truth.

    People see information weighted by quality of presentation and volume of utterances. "The Truth" is not self-revelatory nor is it self-reinforcing, particularly for a lay person. There are whole philosophical treaties that break this down.

    Where are the riots? Where were the protests as Republicans red mapped? Why did they stop? Where was the blowback when Florida didn’t give felons their right to vote back? Where are the riots when Republicans vote to remove the ability of citizens to add initiatives to the ballot?

    You have to ask, you haven't bothered to look. We had a Jacksonville man arrested after he tried to run over a pack of protesters in his neighborhood in June. We had a Texas congressional candidate tackled by police in the middle of a legislative session just last week. Over 3,200 students had been arrested on campus in the spring of 2024. The riots in LA have been happening for months.

    But the fact that you seem to be willing to deny the existence of ongoing domestic protests - flare ups that have been stretching back decades in this country - sort of illustrates the problem of "the truth of climate change". You've blinded yourself to crowds of people who may well be marching through your own neighborhoods. These are massive crowds of people who get regular news coverage, not obscure 19th century climatologists who go unmentioned save in the fine print of Wikipedia articles.

    Correct my misunderstanding, but this tells me you have given up

    If I had given up, I wouldn't be blaming random Boomers on the current state of affairs. I don't believe an entire generational cohort is irredeemably stupid.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    "The Truth" is not self-revelatory nor is it self-reinforcing, particularly for a lay person.

    It is not self-revelatory, but there are objective truths. If a lay person lacks the expertise to understand, they should defer to experts - not politicians or pundits.

    Falling for propaganda is a reason, but it is not an excuse. The electorate has a responsibility to be informed.

    You have to ask, you haven't bothered to look.

    I'm incredibly proud of what has been happening in my home city of LA. That's what we fucking need everywhere. Burn cities down until things change.

    But fair point! I was being more rhetorical and less literal. But that's my miscommunication error. My question wasn't to say they don't exist or haven't happened. I asked it to highlight that it isn't enough. That for the magnitude of what is happening and its importance, the response is impotent and not proportional.

    The world is increasingly on fire (almost literally). I'm living in a downtown metropolitan area minutes from city hall and protests are not daily.

    I don't believe an entire generational cohort is irredeemably stupid.

    Nor do I. I never said that. I said I blame them for their willful ignorance and their decision not to prioritize climate change politically.

    My position is simple. More could have been done, and because of that, we share blame and responsibility - however small. This is why I also blame myself.

    Anyway, I think we've kind of hit a natural end. I appreciated our conversation, and it's given me some things to mull over.

    Thank you❤️

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