fafferlicious comments on nah it's natural

[–] fafferlicious@lemmy.world 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

We had the opportunity to engage in long term moderate and sustainable use, but squandered it in the name of short term consumer-driven profits.

But, again, this wasn't a decision made by a mass of proles, democratically. It was dictated from corporate boards and corrupt Congressional legislatures and Pentagon war rooms.

I think, ultimately, we agree. The main difference is I don't think "but, but, they were lied to" is an effective excuse to remove blame. In a democracy, however dysfunctional, the people share responsibility for the government the people elect.

Voter participation since the 70s is garbage. We're just now breaking the high water mark of the 60's - 65% presidential ; 50% midterm.

I am not saying it is their fault. Just that they are at fault. I'm at fault. I could have protested, but I believed too strongly that we'd get there. I never conceived we'd go backwards. I just thought if I kept voting right, we'd get there - slowly.

That is my shame and blame to carry. And I won't give others a pass for their inaction or choices.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 4 child comments

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

The main difference is I don’t think “but, but, they were lied to” is an effective excuse

If you're sighting data collected in 1894 but discounting the education and media necessary to propagate that information to the general public, I'm not sure how the information is expected to disseminate.

Yeah, people were absolutely lied to - insidiously and exhaustively. That necessarily shapes their world views.

In a democracy, however dysfunctional, the people share responsibility for the government the people elect.

Liberal democracy is barely worthy of the term. Congress has had a single digit approval rating for decades. The president regularly is underwater in public support. The parties are privately owned and operated, periodically selecting their nominees without any democratic input. Voters are systematically gerrymandered and disenfranchised. Popular candidates are smeared, removed from ballots, denied access to debates, and outright prosecuted.

What do you say to the 60-80% of the population with no material representation in government?

I’m at fault

Unless I'm talking to a CEO of an energy company or a sitting Senator, I'm not clear what you are supposed to have done differently.

The modern moment is historically overdetermined. It's hubristic to pretend you have any control over it.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 3 child comments

[–] fafferlicious@lemmy.world 1 point 1 year ago* (2 children)

Yeah, people were absolutely lied to - insidiously and exhaustively. That necessarily shapes their world views.

Yes, but people also see the truth. The information is there. Some people choose to believe the lies because it's convenient. They don't want to look into it. They don't want to listen to scientists, and instead choose to listen to politicians and companies.

Voters are systematically gerrymandered and disenfranchised. Popular candidates are smeared, removed from ballots, denied access to debates, and outright prosecuted.

Where are the riots? Where were the protests as Republicans red mapped? Why did they stop? Where was the blowback when Florida didn't give felons their right to vote back? Where are the riots when Republicans vote to remove the ability of citizens to add initiatives to the ballot?

What do you say to the 60-80% of the population with no material representation in government?

You don't need a vote to effect meaningful political change. Women couldn't vote. Until they could - through collective action.

Everyone chooses how to react and interface with the world. All the distortions in American democracy didn't materialize overnight.

People formed unions despite being murdered by pinkertons. Just because the system is fighting against us, doesn't absolve us of our responsibilities.

The modern moment is historically overdetermined. It's hubristic to pretend you have any control over it.

Correct my misunderstanding, but this tells me you have given up and think that nothing could have been done unless those with real power suddenly became altruistic in the past 3 decades.

And on that point, we may fundamentally disagree. I have to believe that citizens can effect change individually or collectively despite everything stacked against them. If I admit that the power differential is intractable and hopeless, then our only hope is a sudden wave of noblesse oblige to overcome people's greed, and we are truly fucked. Hubristic or not, I have to believe we have agency.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 2 child comments

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

Yes, but people also see the truth.

People see information weighted by quality of presentation and volume of utterances. "The Truth" is not self-revelatory nor is it self-reinforcing, particularly for a lay person. There are whole philosophical treaties that break this down.

Where are the riots? Where were the protests as Republicans red mapped? Why did they stop? Where was the blowback when Florida didn’t give felons their right to vote back? Where are the riots when Republicans vote to remove the ability of citizens to add initiatives to the ballot?

You have to ask, you haven't bothered to look. We had a Jacksonville man arrested after he tried to run over a pack of protesters in his neighborhood in June. We had a Texas congressional candidate tackled by police in the middle of a legislative session just last week. Over 3,200 students had been arrested on campus in the spring of 2024. The riots in LA have been happening for months.

But the fact that you seem to be willing to deny the existence of ongoing domestic protests - flare ups that have been stretching back decades in this country - sort of illustrates the problem of "the truth of climate change". You've blinded yourself to crowds of people who may well be marching through your own neighborhoods. These are massive crowds of people who get regular news coverage, not obscure 19th century climatologists who go unmentioned save in the fine print of Wikipedia articles.

Correct my misunderstanding, but this tells me you have given up

If I had given up, I wouldn't be blaming random Boomers on the current state of affairs. I don't believe an entire generational cohort is irredeemably stupid.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 1 child comment

[–] fafferlicious@lemmy.world 1 point 1 year ago

"The Truth" is not self-revelatory nor is it self-reinforcing, particularly for a lay person.

It is not self-revelatory, but there are objective truths. If a lay person lacks the expertise to understand, they should defer to experts - not politicians or pundits.

Falling for propaganda is a reason, but it is not an excuse. The electorate has a responsibility to be informed.

You have to ask, you haven't bothered to look.

I'm incredibly proud of what has been happening in my home city of LA. That's what we fucking need everywhere. Burn cities down until things change.

But fair point! I was being more rhetorical and less literal. But that's my miscommunication error. My question wasn't to say they don't exist or haven't happened. I asked it to highlight that it isn't enough. That for the magnitude of what is happening and its importance, the response is impotent and not proportional.

The world is increasingly on fire (almost literally). I'm living in a downtown metropolitan area minutes from city hall and protests are not daily.

I don't believe an entire generational cohort is irredeemably stupid.

Nor do I. I never said that. I said I blame them for their willful ignorance and their decision not to prioritize climate change politically.

My position is simple. More could have been done, and because of that, we share blame and responsibility - however small. This is why I also blame myself.

Anyway, I think we've kind of hit a natural end. I appreciated our conversation, and it's given me some things to mull over.

Thank you❤️

permalink

fedilink

source

parent