Today has been especially bad, and was inspired sadly by about 6 straight posts of only negativity here.

I want to say that being negative towards something is not a bad thing, it's very valid to critique things. However, a community becomes toxic when the majority of it's content is negative.

Gaming is an obvious one. It's very obvious all around the internet that gaming communities are negative generally, and Lemmy certainly takes the cake. In the case of GTA 6 coming out this month we can (and have) had multiple stories about Rockstar's unethical practices, the pricing, ownership, and to be clear I agree with all of it. However, there is also valid positive things that people want to discuss but are immediately downvoted to hell, or have comments brigaded on with responses like "Don't you know about X, Y, or Z??"

I've been in comment threads where people have told me that they are afraid to post here because of the responses they might get. Now this is absolutely true everywhere, and we will often respond "You just have to tune them out" but the scales are shifting to the majority of responses are negative.

New users will not simply block/tune out the majority of commenters. New users will see that a community is toxic and turn around and go back to where they felt it was better.

This is the root of my frustration - that Lemmy is no longer a geeky place where people can talk about Star Trek and Linux - but that it's becoming a toxic place where if you aren't talking about why Star Trek and Linux are the only good things on the planet that it should be called out over and over.

Worse is that the scales a tipping to simply being "If it is popular, it is not good" which is a huge red flag for toxic community. To be clear it does not mean that if something is popular that it must be good, but instead we are falling for the same trap that is on corporate social media.

Anger and toxicity are fun, they are dopamine hits. So when there's a huge post about <> and everyone dogpiles, everyone has that dopamine hit and it spreads, and it makes people want to dogpile more. Unfortunately I think this has left individual posts, and this is now driving a large part of our comment sections, that people feel included when they are all dogpiling on a popular thing. It's addictive.

It's incessant and exhausting being here some days.

Some examples to think on:

  • Harry Potter fans (who have already said they will not buy anything from Rowling again and are aware) who still want to enjoy the books/movies they already own, but are shouted down and downvoted
  • Sports fans posting about football, to have jokes about "sportsball" made to them.
    • (Is that really any different from nerds being made fun of by jocks in highschool, only this is in reverse and worse yet, we're supposedly more mature now?)
  • Freaking pumpkin spice. The world is on fire and people get a tiny bit of joy out of cinnamon and allspice, can we let them just enjoy that?!

I think that sums it all up, I wish people could just enjoy things here without having the majority of comments be about why they shouldn't enjoy it. I think this attitude has already lost of a good chunk of users who could be adding to the fediverse, instead now back on corporate social media.

It's anecdotal but I've shown the fediverse to 3 other people who are trekkie nerds like me. They gave up in less than a week not because the fediverse was complicated, but because they felt like they weren't wanted here.

Be the positive change, be encouraging. Don't belittle for someone for liking a popular thing if you like something more obscure, instead post about obscure thing and why you like it and share it! Inform users of things like Rowlings insane shit-headery, but don't demean them for still enjoying the books. If you don't like sports that's cool, but let them cheer on their team.

Thanks for listening. I'm going to have a pumpkin spice latte now.

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[–] 7 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago) (15 children)

I think it’s a structural problem.

Lemmy/Piefed/Mbin replicated Reddit a little too closely, IMO.

To be more specific, I think the system heavily rewards clickbait content, especially ragebait. There are positive posts on Lemmy, but my experience is they don’t get much engagement compared to the clickbait posts, which discourages posting. It also doesn’t support positive niche communities very well either, perhaps even worse than Reddit, as devs (rightly) left out the algorithm to surface them.


I have some ideas. Like facilitating community hierarchies or “families” so niche content can bubble up, a “community comment” feature like Twitter to combat upvoted clickbait headlines, stricter instance cultures around sourcing, maybe a deprioritization system for sorting…

But honestly. The biggest problem I run into is users, in aggregate, don’t care.

They are happy with the negatively. They are here for it. They don’t care about misinformation or ragebait as long as it aligns with their beliefs; some even explicitly encourage it.

Its made me consider leaving Lemmy, many times. I don’t want to participate in a community that just circulates ragebait.

*And I know I am at fault to. I have a todo list of positive content to post, that I just haven’t gotten around to.

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  • [–] [S] 5 points 15 hours ago (5 children)

    Very possible. I know I dislike platforms like Facebook where there is no dislike, so everything seems super popular, but also here with unlimited downvotes it's so easy to dislike everything (and then complain that there isn't enough content).

    I wonder what people would do if there were only so many downvotes they got a week/day. How would they parse them out? What if when you ran out you had to choose to downvote this or take a downvote away from something else?

    But you're exactly right, people want to be angry.

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  • [–] 4 points 15 hours ago* (4 children)

    people want to be angry.

    I think it’s more that our monkey brains reach for the dopamine hit, rather than consciously “wanting” it. Like how doomscrolling feels awful, yet we do it like an addiction.

    Like I ninja edited it, I am guilty of contributing to negativity here, even though I consciously view it as an existential issue here. And I think it won’t fix itself without structure change, to save us from our impulses.

    There are some exceptions though. Some users here are zealots that explicitly endorse ragebait, and honestly I don’t know what to do about that.

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  • [–] 4 points 14 hours ago

    people want to be angry.

    I think people just are angry. And stressed. And scared. Many people are genuinely in a much worse place today than they were 2 years ago. And cornered, hurt animals bite.

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 15 hours ago (2 children)

    Fully get it. I don't know either which is why I exasperatedly wrote this. I downvote the negativity, and I try to post positive things, I have a full blocklist and defed list, but it's all just tiring.

    It just kills me that the same people will turn around and complain that lemmy isn't bigger, or that people don't post enough, or that there isn't enough engagement, and then will constantly downvote anything that they don't 100% agree with.

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  • [–] 5 points 15 hours ago (1 child)

    At risk of sounding negative when I generally agree… I think downvoting is fine.

    Dare I say, it’s good. I think a “downvote limit” should be a non default per-community option, at most.

    The bigger issue I’ve observed is lack of engagement, and the upvoting of toxic things.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago)

    This is why I kinda wish there were more types of reactions. If you could sort by heart reactions, you'd get a way more positive feed. Or imagine if you could hide posts that had too many angry face reactions. @rimu@piefed.social that sounds up your alley lol, hiding/dimming posts based on negative reaction emojis.

    PieFed can put arbitrary reactions on posts but you can't sort/filter by them, and too many choices of emojis means they'll never group together well. Maybe Catodon can do it? But to be honest it won't get critical mass unless Lemmy supports it.

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  • [–] 1 point 15 hours ago (7 children)

    The "structural problem" that encourages bait posts are the up/down votes.

    When some new technology runs its course, it's sometimes useful to go back and examine the technologies it replaced to see if maybe one was abandoned too early.

    Digg was Reddit before Reddit was Reddit. On Digg, the only thing you could do was "dig" a post. It was basically upvotes only. The front page showed the most dug posts within the time period you selected.

    The thing that made Reddit overtake Digg in popularity and user count was the implementation of up/down votes and karma. People like watch number get big.

    Since the up/down votes don't feed an algorithm of any kind, ostensibly, the only reason they exist here is for the sake of familiarity; some people see that lack of functionality and wonder how they're supposed to interact with posts.

    I think it'd be interesting to see how people today use the Fediverse with up/down votes either removed or hidden.

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  • [–] 3 points 13 hours ago

    I wonder if it would be better to have a different way of measuring engagement. As weird as it sounds, maybe "emoji" style upvote is a better measure of score. And it gives users more control too. Like, as a user, if I mark a post as "angering" and enough users do that, maybe users can filter out "angering" posts if they want. They'd have an option to disengage from the negativity.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 hours ago*

    I would like to see more instances experiment with disabling downvotes.

    In Lemmy v1.0 there will be options for community moderators to tweak too (disable downvotes, only allow downvotes from subscribers). PieFed already has that.

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  • [–] 0 points 14 hours ago (1 child)

    Downvotes are a way to crowd-source moderation, for a large website that didn't want to pay for moderators, and that believed in the wisdom of crowds.

    Crowds are not wise, though, and downvotes discourage the kind of moderation that makes an online community friendly. Stricter moderation and tone policing helps a ton, while downvotes just encourage venting -- and venting is actually shown to increase agitation and negative feelings, rather than resolve them.

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  • [–] -1 points 13 hours ago

    Crowds are not wise, though, and downvotes discourage the kind of moderation that makes an online community friendly.

    According to who? What evidence do you have that this is a necessarily a result of upvotes and downvotes being present in a system?

    I am all for certain corners not having a voting system but I think it is really telling how you all complain about the problems with other people's negativity so much.

    Maybe you need to connect with people better and listen to their negativity and the sources of it more authentically and it is a you problem? As in YOU have a problem with being too negative about other people expressing negativity or critical feedback.

    Crowds can absolutely be wise, you clearly have never done theater if you think that.

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  • [–] 0 points 14 hours ago (2 children)

    That's a fascinating point. Since there aren't as many posts here, we do not actually need up and down votes to curate the feed. I wonder if I can find a setting to turn them off?

    It's not as if I actually care about them here, I got harshly downvoted recently quite rightly due to posting something wrong, and I was just glad to learn the correct thing.

    Maybe I'm finally free of the point lust I learned on Reddit.

    We should take the time to design a better system while we still can, before growth floods us with comments and we have to curate somehow.

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  • [–] 2 points 13 hours ago (1 child)

    For Lemmy, downvotes can be turned off at the site level by the site admins, but I don't think users can hide up/downvotes. Not natively, at least. I guess you can do basically anything with Greasemonkey.

    I'm not sure how it is in Piefed.

    My NodeBB site lets me turn both up- and downvotes off in the admin panel, but, again, that's for the site as a whole. Individual users don't get that choice.

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