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[–] 36 points 1 year ago (53 children)

BUT

AT

WHAT

COST

????!!!??!!

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Are you referring to China's shitty government that commits genocide or am I missing the joke?

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    "But at what cost" is a common refrain used by western media anytime China does something good. They are just poking fun at that

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  • [–] 23 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    China’s shitty government that commits genocide

    It's so crazy to live in a country where it's illegal to call Palestine a genocide and mandatory to call China one.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Nazi Germany had a genocidal government Israel has a genocidal government China has a genocidal government Russia is committing genocide in Ukraine

    Can we agree on those four statements? I can, because they're all facts. We have to at least be able to agree on facts.

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  • [+] -35 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (43 children)

    Eh, the thing is a large majority of their limes are unprofitable for being largely underused

    Why did the Chinese take incredible amount of debt on to fund these lines that do not connect major population centers? Prob for that chart

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  • [–] 72 points 1 year ago (15 children)

    This chart is a good example of what happens when transport infrastructure is judged through a purely economic lens versus what happens when affordable travel is seen as a necessary feature of a civilised society. (Not to mention the jobs created and the carbon saved.)

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  • [+] -26 points 1 year ago (14 children)

    I would disagree, while I do not believe that public transportation needs to be self-sustaining at all; they should be built/deployed at a capacity as its needed in order of minimizing waste

    If a train line is not profitable, its not used

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  • [–] 23 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    If a train line is not profitable, its not used

    Peak car/capitalist brain. You gonna hold roads to the same standard?

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  • [–] 33 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    How do you feel about rural roads? Should we not build them unless we can make them profitable?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Highly-used roads are even less profitable since they need expensive repairs much more often.

    To your point, though, the idea that every service has to make a profit is most of what's wrong with me modern society.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    The very approach to calculating "profit" is backwards.

    We're not measuring the economic value ad of the lane of transit. We're measuring the margin between cost of the lane and the immediate rent produced.

    Concepts like "hours lost in transit" or "physical harm from accidents" goes entirely out the window. Negative externalities are never measured by capitalist economics.

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  • [+] -9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    Not sure that's the same. Dumping a bunch of gravel is far cheaper and less wasteful than a rail line.

    Edit: I will add that I don't agree that profitability should be the foremost consideration when it comes to building public infrastructure.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I think you have that backward, even accepting the idea that profitability is an important metric. If a rail line is not used it is not profitable.

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  • [+] -12 points 1 year ago

    Which part of the

    I don’t think public transportation needs to be profitable at all

    is misunderstandable? I used profitibility as a metric of usage as trains, especially high speed ones meant to transport a fuck ton of people; which I also wrote down

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    they should be built/deployed at a capacity as its needed in order of minimizing waste

    Building at capacity might not be the most efficient solution. First, towns grow. Second, China keeps costs down by standardisation (the Chinese HSR system has, if I remember correctly, 3 models of trains and two standards of track). And third, China is vulnerable to earthquakes and floods. So having alternative routes is useful.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago

    The issue specifically is that there is no population centres in which these unprofitable lines run through

    And no, government don’t and should burn thousands billions; and hundreds of millions in upkeep every year because what if maybe urbanization stops and people for whatever reason move back to the countryside

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  • [–] 27 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    Perhaps you could enlighten us with a map of profitable highways?

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago* (7 children)
    1. Comprehensive transportation systems have huge indirect benefits for a society. While they lose money in direct fees, they support large economic improvements. For any transportation systems. Cars are good for widely dispersed populations, aircraft are good for long distances, trains are good for large groups of people and medium distances. Why can’t we invest in the right transportation for each use, give people access to the best choice? Instead we limit our choices, limit our options, even when they’re not the right choice
    2. Adding gas taxes and tolls together, typically covers less than half a highways cost, and most roads don’t have tolls. Roads are not profitable or taxes are not sufficiently high.
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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (5 children)
    1. Apparently you’ve never seen traffic in the US. We have a great highway system and a great airport system with many travelers. Too many. Way too many. Not only huge amounts of congestion for cars but huge amounts of congestion for flights, both in the air and on the ground. In the US, only a few cities have widely used transit and only one corridor has practical intercity rail. There’s lots of room for more. It needs to have regular service and be faster than cars to be useful. And it would be perfect everywhere there are two cities up to a few hundred miles apart …. Which covers like 80% of our population
    2. In the US, highways do not pay for themselves in direct costs. Gasoline taxes haven’t gone up in decades, most roads don’t have tolls, and even those who do don’t cover their costs. Roads aren’t directly profitable so why do we have a different standard for rail?
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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    On average, state and local governments collect roughly 10 percent of oil and gas of their revenue (https://www.rff.org/publications/journal-articles/us-state-and-local-oil-and-gas-revenue-sources-and-uses/)

    If facts are not on our side lets make them up

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    How is this relevant? Sure the states that are oil producing collect taxes from oil producers. It’s a huge benefit especially to Alaska since they can support a soverigb wealth fund but others as well.

    However that is not relevant to whether highways are directly profitable

    Note that many US trains are diesel, so if you think oil production is a big enough benefit to the economy, it’s also thanks to rail

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  • [–] -3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    How is you and 48 other people asking whether high ways are profitable relevant? I said I used profitibility as a metric of its usage as trains meant to transport an absolute fuck ton of people

    And why do you only have an issue with the topic you started when it turns out that you lied?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    And you don’t see the hypocrisy of using profitability as a metric for trains yet claiming profitability of highways as irrelevant? This inconsistency is exactly my point.

    And no

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  • [–] -3 points 1 year ago

    No, the two are not comperative! Roads are not necessarily high ways; comparatively expensive (tho not nearly as so) and meant to conduct large traffic! Though I am sure you could make a comperative example if you even pretended to be good faith! Though fucking again, if a high way was constructed into the fucking nowhere, running through nowhere I would be angry for wasting so much money… Which, fucking again, is my problem

    Thats not a yes or no question! Once again, why do you suddenly have an issue with a topic YOU started once it turned out that your assumption, for which you again LIED, was proven to be false?

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    I know this might blow your mind but it is possible to build things in advance of demand and without a profit incentive

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  • [–] -5 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    And it’s possible to technically birth hegdehogs, not that you should

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)
  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    He proposed of a possibility? Not a good one in my opinion, like planting an adult hedgehog into a womans womb and artificially inducing birth

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Implying that infrastructure building to grow economies is somehow alien and inefficient is exactly why the west is declining. Roosevelt era and Postwar America made a habit of it, then make a habit of privatizing everything and allowing private companies to siphon public money into their coffers and let infrastructure decay while expecting unlimited economic growth. The idea that this monster we've created is somehow efficient or sane vs building capacity for economic growth is incredibly dumb.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Most of the lines are used fairly well. Overall ridership of the network was 3.2billion trips last year. It is still growing.

    As for the economics, it is infrastructure, which is going to last for a century or more. It obviously requires upgrades, but having a fast reliable, green form of transport between a countries large cities has a lot of advantages. Not the least are indirect economic advantages. Like for example making business trips easier, but also tourism. That is why Japan, South Korea and Western European countries built hsr as well.

    That also means taking on debt is somewhat sensible, as long as economic growth from the better connections is bigger then the cost of the debt. That is honestly just running the country like a business.

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  • [+] -6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Building a fast rail for tourism is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard; you actually have to produce something worthwhile for ec growth

    Where did you shit that number? The whole system, and we are only talking about the underused lines, “only” transport 500k ppl a day (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China)

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Exactly. And as we all know, population stays the same over time. So it's truly a waste.

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  • [+] -6 points 1 year ago (2 children)
    1. Rural area are dying out everywhere as jobs are in cities

    2. Government meet needs not create them and that really should not change

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    If your government isn't planning decades into the future, it can't meet any needs at all. It takes that long to build things to address large issues. There's a lead time. If you don't start planning and building well before there is a need, you'll always be late and will be seen as useless.

    I guess that does explain the American government actually.

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