distal comments on Antivax is a way for people to rationalise their fear of needles

[–] distal@lemmy.ml [S] 0 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (9 children)

but if you claim to understand social relationships and see them as worth studying, then you’re saying that you’re doing sociology right there

Nope, That is very abstract conception of sociology I am sure most sociologists wouldn't share. And Marx wasn't all about social relationships, he was just as much a philosopher of science, and that includes biology and physics and so on, a determinist even! Due to his materialism. As he grew older and more refined he also became more materialist and determinist in his thinking.

“As if?” Nothing I said could even remotely be construed as implying they couldn’t!

Why the hell do you then say this?!

"that cultures that have the memory of first getting vaccines in living memory tend to be more favorable towards vaccines and less prone to conspiracy theories about them,"

By what in my previous message?

"You are treating ideas that exist only in particular times and cultures as inherent things that will naturally arise out of the existence of particular physical objects. That's nonsense. Those ideas come from culture and social relations"

The last part, "That's nonsense. Those ideas come from culture and social relations" treats it as a closed loop and that is bullshit. In fact the mind and ideas are constantly regenerated by physical inputs, that is why false memories are so easy to condition. So yes, everything "naturally" (I hate that word) arises out of physical objects and these words here are ephemera if they're not being tested against concrete physical reality constantly. I can't purely logic myself into the right thoughts to come to correct views about the world, it has to be connected to the tangible and if anything ideas that exist primarily through the exchange between people are a weak shadows of that tangible reality.

It’s mystical, but you don’t reject it?

Just because things are mystical, doesn't mean I have to reject them completely, just because something almost leaves a bad taste in my mouth doesn't mean I shouldn't engage with it. Economics is very crucial, I hate it! It is mystified and stupid! But I engage with it and take it seriously non the less because I am an antimoralist.

Also your approach to vaccine denialism just being regulating speech is in fact pure paternalism with a little education thrown in. Thought I might add that before nodding off.

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[–] Objection@lemmy.ml -1 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (8 children)

Nope, That is very abstract conception of sociology I am sure most sociologists wouldn’t share

"Sociology is the study of social life, social change, and the social causes and consequences of human behavior. Sociologists investigate the structure of groups, organizations, and societies and how people interact within these contexts. Since all human behavior is social, the subject matter of sociology ranges from the intimate family to global communities; from deviance to organized crime; from religious traditions to state institutions; and from the divisions of race, gender and social class to the shared beliefs of a common culture." -American Sociological Association

So, no, it's a very standard definition of sociology that's consistent with how sociologists define it. You just have weird brainworms about what sociology is and means.

Why the hell do you then say this?!

“that cultures that have the memory of first getting vaccines in living memory tend to be more favorable towards vaccines and less prone to conspiracy theories about them,”

Um. Because it's true? And once they no longer have the living memory of first getting vaccines, then they will no longer fit that criteria. How on earth does that, in any possible interpretation, lead to, "As if these societies couldn’t be swayed by future social dynamics?" Do you think the living memory of first getting the vaccine will last forever?

The last part, “That’s nonsense. Those ideas come from culture and social relations” treats it as a closed loop and that is bullshit. In fact the mind and ideas are constantly regenerated by physical inputs, that is why false memories are so easy to condition. So yes, everything “naturally” (I hate that word) arises out of physical objects and these words here are ephemera if they’re not being tested against concrete physical reality constantly. I can’t purely logic myself into the right thoughts to come to correct views about the world, it has to be connected to the tangible and if anything ideas that exist primarily through the exchange between people are a weak shadows of that tangible reality.

You're misunderstanding that completely. There is no "closed loop." Material conditions shape thought. That is what materialism is, by definition. When a group of people share the same material conditions, those same material conditions tend to shape their thought all together. When a bunch of people have similar thoughts arising out of shared experiences, that's called a "culture." This culture can then motivate them towards actions which will affect the material world, as well as influencing individual thoughts, together with constant influence from present material conditions.

The material condition of seeing vaccines eradicate disease shaped thought and culture. It makes people see the value in them and appreciate them more and be less conspiratorial about them. Over time, as the memory of that experience fades, the social conditions changes and people may become more complacent and more prone to distrusting them.

The difference between our views is just that I acknowledge material relations, including the availability of a material object, including events and experiences with the object, where you only look at physical characteristics of the object itself. Nothing I have said in any way implies that thoughts simple materialize from nothing or that ideas have some special power or that you arrive at ideas through pure logic or any of that. I'm just expressing actual materialism. Is the availability of an object not an aspect of the material world?

Just because things are mystical, doesn’t mean I have to reject them completely, just because something almost leaves a bad taste in my mouth doesn’t mean I shouldn’t engage with it. Economics is very crucial, I hate it! It is mystified and stupid! But I engage with it and take it seriously non the less because I am an antimoralist.

??? I'm not even gonna take a stab at detangling that. "I'm a materialist, but I don't reject things just because they're mystical." Uhh, ok, sure.

Also your approach to vaccine denialism just being regulating speech is in fact pure paternalism with a little education thrown in. Thought I might add that before nodding off.

If there is ever a case where removing misinformation is justified, this is it. Vaccines are the single greatest accomplishment of human civilization.

The first responsibility of the state is to protect the people. The state is not only justified in intervening, but has a moral obligation to intervene to ensure that children are vaccinated. It's the same way that "freedom of speech" does not extend to shouting "fire" in a crowded theater. Antivax rhetoric results in physical harm to innocent people. You only disagree with my suggestion because you don't fully understand what's at stake.

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[–] distal@lemmy.ml [S] 0 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (7 children)

Um. Because it’s true?

This whole living memory thesis is complete horseshit. Half of Germans have the living memory of WW2, maybe not directly, but close enough. Many boomers remember the social unrest of the late 60's to mid 1970's. Yet they vote AfD! Germany is a country that prided itself with being open minded not even 12 years ago, where almost every country bumpkin held onto an antifascist belief of one kind or another. Yet despite having a (like all other memories flimsy) memory, they do a 180.

This is a pattern, or rather lack thereof, can be observed in revolutionary times as well. The Bolsheviks had to deal with an ultraconservative populace before there were big insurrectionary movements. This changed entirely within a few years.

You know why that is? Because humans are immediate beings more often than not that have a gigantic capacity of irrationality.

Material conditions shape thought

This is in direct contradiction with your OBJECTIONS to my materialism.

Nothing I have said in any way implies that thoughts simple materialize from nothing or that ideas have some special power or that you arrive at ideas through pure logic or any of that

No, you talk about intelligence ops by Americans as if they have special power.

??? I’m not even gonna take a stab at detangling that. “I’m a materialist, but I don’t reject things just because they’re mystical.” Uhh, ok, sure.

*untangling

Yes and this makes perfect sense. You equate mysticism to evil and therefore don't understand when people try to engage with mystical ideas. You are not considering the content of the engagement in any way. All you are doing is attempt at nullifying a fundamentally opposed reading of sociology as this one self contained field.

If there is ever a case where removing misinformation is justified, this is it. Vaccines are the single greatest accomplishment of human civilization.

The greatest accomplishment? Are you serious? Do you even know your history of science? Haber process ring a bell? Semiconductors? Agriculture? Refrigeration? Mechanical calculators? Freaking writing? Steel? Concrete? Nuclear reactors? Printing? Cooking? Spacefaring? The internet? Anaesthesia? There is no such thing as a greatest accomplishment you fool!

Actually, you'd want to get to a point misinformation does not even need to be removed. Where it is seen like the statement 1*1 = 2. That doesn't happen through simple removal of the false content but engagement with it.

The first responsibility of the state is to protect the people

The state doesn't give a shit about you unless it can make a buck off of you. The state will exacerbate your poverty very intentionally so that you take even the shittiest of jobs. The state, as led by a class of bureaucrats, has an interest in exploiting its populace. This is immanently baked into the state. The concept of a people is also complete horseshit which ultimately serves to ideologically iron over the extreme differences people have internally. I have much more in common with a Brazilian who's renting their flat than with my landlord. The state owes you nothing and knows hardly any responsibilities except for its survival in state-state competition!

You view the state as a neutral object, that can either function to this or that interest's end. But this is simply not true. Antivax rhetoric doesn't harm people, it's the inherent impossibility of state led education to ensure that people don't fall for it in the first place, also the nature of work is one where people don't learn to a sufficient extend if work became more diverse and interconnected, also less demanding, people would be much more adept in their general cognitive approach. Professor Dave for example has done the job of thousands of teachers and then some in combating vaccine misinfo – the state could never. You wish to be led by a benevolent ruler, a Zohran, but you don't comprehend how choosing your rulers only affirms rulership over subjects instead of becoming self empowered. Yours is a completely faulty way of thinking if your interests are that of the working class. You are ignoring how people, at the mid to lower rungs, can empower themselves cognitively.

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[–] Objection@lemmy.ml -1 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (6 children)

Half of Germans have the living memory of WW2, maybe not directly, but close enough

Lmao, what?? WWII ended 81 years ago. The only Germans who have living memory of it would be like 90. That's nowhere remotely close to "half of Germans."

You know why that is? Because humans are immediate beings more often than not that have a gigantic capacity of irrationality.

"Irrationality?" So you think these ideas just magically sprung out of nothing? How on earth is this a "materialist" explanation?

No. Based on what you've said, there's exactly one explanation you can use here, which is that there's some property of some particular object that turns people fascist or communist. Some kind of orb, perhaps, that all the Germans touched and it suddenly turned them into fascists.

In reality, their ideas changed because of actual materialism, which accounts for material relations rather than the inherent properties of an object. Specifically, the fact that both populations had poor material conditions made both prone to radicalization.

This is in direct contradiction with your OBJECTIONS to my materialism.

Incorrect. My objections to your so-called "materialism" is that it's only looking at the properties of an object rather than the material conditions, which is what actual materialism looks at.

Yes and this makes perfect sense. You equate mysticism to evil

No, I equate mysticism with being wrong. Because I'm a materialist.

There is no such thing as a greatest accomplishment you fool!

Lmao, I'm allowed to have an opinion on which accomplishment is the greatest and calling me a "fool" for doing so is just silly. Honestly, I think you're just going to attack me over anything and everything I say at this point, for no real reason. You wouldn't say this to someone if you weren't already in "attack mode."

Actually, you’d want to get to a point misinformation does not even need to be removed. Where it is seen like the statement 1*1 = 2. That doesn’t happen through simple removal of the false content but engagement with it.

Is that so? Do you have any actual evidence that removing misinformation doesn't work, or that engagement with it does? On the internet, engagement (even negative engagement) generally causes ideas to reach a wider audience, and also legitimizes the conspiracy theory as worth discussing.

The state doesn’t give a shit about you unless it can make a buck off of you.

When I talk about the first responsibity of the state, I am talking about what it ought to do, not how it acts in practice. So all of this is irrelevant.

Yours is a completely faulty way of thinking if your interests are that of the working class. You are ignoring how people, at the mid to lower rungs, can empower themselves cognitively.

Ok, so do it then. What's stopping you? Seems like under the current conditions, we still have antivaxxers and they're growing instead of shrinking.

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[–] distal@lemmy.ml [S] 0 points 2 weeks ago (5 children)

Lmao, what?? WWII ended 81 years ago. The only Germans who have living memory of it would be like 90. That’s nowhere remotely close to “half of Germans.”

So living memory is now a property of people who have direct experience of something? Living with the aftershocks of WWII doesn't count? What in the direct realism is this?

“Irrationality?” So you think these ideas just magically sprung out of nothing? How on earth is this a “materialist” explanation?

No I am saying irrationality is a type of noise, noise can about from material processes. For you everything has to have an explanation that makes sense. You work from phenomena to the relevant objects instead of considering the concrete objects for themselves and then see how the concrete interactions turn into something bigger.

No. Based on what you’ve said, there’s exactly one explanation you can use here, which is that there’s some property of some particular object that turns people fascist or communist. Some kind of orb, perhaps, that all the Germans touched and it suddenly turned them into fascists.

Yes, the particular material objects here are brains, the tools humans use, the environment, etc. You don't understand my argument on a fundamental level and you think of objects as being cars or spoons, which is ridiculous. Idealism, and much of language, ideas, are downstream phenomena that don't mean that much outside of being shorthands for organisation and strategy. For example: try becoming a structured writer without the tools of notetaking, paper, pens, etc., it"s close to impossible. Or a good orator without ever facing a crowd.

You don't comprehend anything I'm saying, nor do you make an effort to.

I’m allowed to have an opinion on which accomplishment

I don't care + same is true for me then, I can have an opinion about your opinion. I can say it's shit. What are you going to do? I give feedback and you can't even be assed to consider what I'm saying. I attack you because you wrong and annoying.

No, I equate mysticism with being wrong. Because I’m a materialist.

Foolish and eliminativist, and not what Marx or any relevant thinker meant with mysticism.

When I talk about the first responsibity of the state, I am talking about what it ought to do, not how it acts in practice. So all of this is irrelevant.

Moralist. So what have states done in history? Has there ever been a state which wasn't atop major antagonisms? Your oughts don't mean anything, when historically no state ever did jack squat in regards to fulfilling needs of commoners. None. And most would send their citizens into !!!death!!!, i.e. going against the interest of the worker/commoner/what have you, if it meant securing the continued existence of the state apparatus. Let me guess, you are also part of the "real democracy has never been tried"-crowd.

Ok, so do it then. What’s stopping you? Seems like under the current conditions, we still have antivaxxers and they’re growing instead of shrinking.

I don't need to do much except for keep doing what I've always did. What a disingenuous way to appeal to constructive criticism.

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[–] Objection@lemmy.ml -1 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)

So living memory is now a property of people who have direct experience of something?

Yes!! That's literally what "living memory" literally means! Wtf are you talking about "direct realism" it's literally just the definition!

You can argue that the aftermath of WWII is in living memory for some people (still nowhere close to half), and you can argue that WWII is still in the cultural memory of Germans (although the word "cultural" may trigger your unhinged brainworms about social sciences), but claiming that it's in the "living memory" for half of Germans is just factually wrong and shows that you have no idea what you're talking about.

You work from phenomena to the relevant objects instead of considering the concrete objects for themselves and then see how the concrete interactions turn into something bigger.

What does "concrete interactions" mean, and how is it different from "material relations?"

I don’t care + same is true for me then, I can have an opinion about your opinion. I can say it’s shit. What are you going to do?

Nothing. You are allowed to consider something else to be the greatest accomplishment or to say that there's no greatest accomplishment or whatever, and I'm allowed to think otherwise. It's a subjective question, one of values, and unless you can argue based on reason on evidence (which you haven't) why I'm wrong, then calling me a "fool" for valuing vaccines so highly is stupid and meaningless.

Foolish and eliminativist, and not what Marx or any relevant thinker meant with mysticism.

"Materialism is when you believe in mysticism" lmao where do you even get this shit? Like, I am genuinely fascinated by all these utterly bizarre ideas you have, that have nothing whatsoever to do with the labels you use to describe them. I really wonder where they come from at all.

Moralist

Is it wrong for me to be?

So what have states done in history?

Well, for one thing relevant to this discussion, they coordinated a global vaccination campaign that eradicated smallpox.

Your oughts don’t mean anything, when historically no state ever did jack squat in regards to fulfilling needs of commoners. None.

Complete and utter nonsense. The PRC literally doubled life expectancy within a generation.

Let me guess, you are also part of the “real democracy has never been tried”-crowd.

What on earth are you talking about? Please stop "guessing" about my views, you've been doing an atrociously bad job of it so far. Maybe listen to the words I actually say instead.

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[–] distal@lemmy.ml [S] 0 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (3 children)

claiming that it’s in the “living memory” for half of Germans is just factually wrong and shows that you have no idea what you’re talking about.

You have no clue about Germany and you underestimate holocaust education.

What does “concrete interactions” mean, and how is it different from “material relations?”

It's not any different and I did not debate the thought of material relations.

then calling me a “fool” for valuing vaccines so highly is stupid and meaningless.

I called you a fool because you said they are mankind's greatest achievement. That is objectively foolish

"Materialism is when you believe in mysticism"

I did not say that, nor do I believe in mysticism. I believe in investigating that which appears mystical, that was my point. You idiot. Quit putting words in my mouth, you are proving more and more with every message how disingenuous your approach is.

moralist

Is it wrong for me to be?

Yes, science does not operate on morals. You claim to be interested in a social science of sorts.

The PRC literally doubled life expectancy within a generation.

So did other countries in (a similar way at least) that developed extremely quickly, like Japan and so on. China is not special and it was in the interest of China to maximise their population potential to get ahead in state-state competition.

What on earth are you talking about? Please stop “guessing” about my views,

I don't have to guess your views, they're atrocious enough.

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[–] Objection@lemmy.ml -1 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

You have no clue about Germany and you underestimate holocaust education.

I guess I do! They must be actually gassing Jews and invading Poland during that education! Because that is literally the only possible way for it to be in "living memory" by definition!

It’s not any different and I did not debate the thought of material relations.

That's literally what the whole argument is about! Ok then, if you're doing a complete 180, then, let's return to the original point. The material relations determined that certain countries did not get vaccines until later than other countries. Those material relations have shaped the thoughts and cultures of those countries, to make them less prone to conspiracy theories.

That's what you had a problem with! That's what caused you to say, "You might as well go back to church and PRAY!" All I've been saying this whole time is that it was the material relations that shaped people's thoughts and ideas!

That is objectively foolish

Let's add "objectively" to the long list of words you don't know the meaning of, along side "living memory" "materialism" and "sociology."

So did other countries in (a similar way at least) that developed extremely quickly, like Japan and so on.

Are you claiming that Japan was a stateless society? Or did you just provide me with more evidence that states can improve people's quality of life?

I don’t have to guess your views, they’re atrocious enough.

What have I said that's "atrocious?" Wanting to remove misinformation? Acknowledging that material relations are a thing that exist?

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[–] distal@lemmy.ml [S] 0 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 child)

I guess I do! They must be actually gassing Jews and invading Poland during that education! Because that is literally the only possible way for it to be in “living memory” by definition!

You idiot really believe that the people who voted the nazis in, and celebrated them were like "Oh nooo we did a big bad~~" after they lost? People wanted hitler back after the war. Antifascist consciousness arose only in the late 70's. The whole living memory thesis remains to be horseshit.

Those material relations have shaped the thoughts and cultures of those countries, to make them less prone to conspiracy theories.

This is not what I am saying and I do not agree with that. This is complete horseshit still as it hinges on the idea of living memory o algo.

I’ve been saying this whole time is that it was the material relations that shaped people’s thoughts and ideas!

You did not.

Are you claiming that Japan was a stateless society? Or did you just provide me with more evidence that states can improve people’s quality of life?

this doesn't follow and is bullshit. I said the state apparati did not lengthen life expectancy out of the goodness of their hearts. I said they did it so they have a workforce with which they can "win" in state-state competition. Your thought about the benevolent state is a fiction.

What have I said that’s “atrocious?” Wanting to remove misinformation? Acknowledging that material relations are a thing that exist?

Your pro-state top down approach and speech policing is quite horrible, yes. A genuinely unsympathetic and cynical approach to politics that can aptly be described as nannying. Cynical because of the distrust of the organic action of the subjects – workers. You are a real counterpoint to staffordshire beer, in the worst way. I will quit talking to you. No surprise that your moderation history is full of bans.

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[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 weeks ago

You idiot really believe that the people who voted the nazis in, and celebrated them were like “Oh nooo we did a big bad~~” after they lost? People wanted hitler back after the war. Antifascist consciousness arose only in the late 70’s. The whole living memory thesis remains to be horseshit.

You mean that the people who were shaped by the conditions that caused people to become Nazis, remained being Nazis, even after conditions changed? And you think this proves that events being in living memory don't influence people's views?

This is not what I am saying and I do not agree with that.

So then you don't agree that material relations shape people's thoughts and ideas, and you are not a materialist.

out of the goodness of their hearts

When the fuck did I ever claim they did it "out of the goodness of their hearts?" There you go, assuming my views and getting it wrong again, instead of listening to my actual words.

A genuinely unsympathetic and cynical approach to politics

Moralist.

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