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[–] 38 points 1 month ago* (75 children)

One side is far more powerful and commiting genocide, the other is poor and simply trying to survive. Currently it is not complex at all.

My initial position after those first attacks from Hamas were Isreal has the right to defend itself, but what has happened since then is so far beyond the scope of what is acceptable, it is horrible.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    You're just straight up being a fascist. Like you deadass are justifying genocide. There already were tons of hospitals and infrastructure! Israel levelled all of them! And that's despite the fact that Israel regularly restricted access to electricity and food BEFORE October 7. Also most of Gaza's population wasn't even old enough to vote when Hamas was elected. Also If you think collective punishment is acceptable for electing someone deemed bad enough then I guess you'd be fine if Israelis and Americans were being mass murdered?

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  • [+] 19 points 1 month ago (9 children)
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  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    “We’ll see what is remembered 50 years from now” is a remarkable thing to say while defending collective punishment, considering we already have a thorough and tragic historical record.

    The last century gave us genocide, mass civilian killing, collective punishment, and entire populations being blamed for the actions of governments and armed groups.

    The humanitarian laws written in response explicitly rejected the exact moral logic you are invoking here.

    You are not offering some hardheaded lesson from history. You are resurrecting an argument the last century already taught us to reject.

    Instead of predicting how history will remember this, maybe you should read some.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago

    “I made no such prediction.”

    That is semantics after the fact.

    “We’ll see what is remembered 50 years from now” is plainly an appeal to future historical judgment. You used it to wave away criticism in the present.

    You do not get to hide behind the fact that you left the prediction deliberately vague. The implication was the entire point of the sentence.

    If you meant nothing by it, then it was meaningless. If you meant what any ordinary reader would understand it to mean, then yes, you were invoking how history would judge this.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    No. The fact that people still commit atrocities does not mean those atrocities were never rejected.

    People still murder. People still torture. People still commit genocide. That does not make murder, torture, or genocide accepted principles.

    Collective punishment was explicitly rejected in international humanitarian law after the horrors of the last century.

    And “but the Muslim world” is not a defense of your argument. It is just pointing at someone else.

    You defended collective punishment. You minimized the suffering of innocent civilians. You justified that suffering as the consequence of political decisions made by a population decades ago.

    Those were your words. They are still sitting there for everyone to read.

    You cannot erase what you argued by pretending you argued something else.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    Now that is a defensible argument.

    Yes, these principles are violated constantly. But I think that is precisely why it matters that we continue to insist upon them.

    You started by arguing that collective punishment is simply how international politics sometimes works. You pointed to Germany, to Gaza, and now to the prevalence of atrocities around the world.

    But there is a danger in that reasoning. When “people do this all the time” becomes our answer to an atrocity, we begin normalizing the atrocity instead of opposing it.

    Article 33 does not say collective punishment is prohibited only when the world is behaving itself. It prohibits it precisely because history demonstrated what happens when we accept collective guilt and the punishment of civilians as ordinary features of war.

    Laws are only as meaningful as our willingness to uphold them.

    It requires more than writing them down.

    It requires the willingness to condemn violations where they occur, when they occur; friend or foe.

    We must confront the scale of the destruction Israel has inflicted across Gaza. More than 170,000 structures, roughly 69 percent of Gaza’s prewar buildings, had already been damaged or destroyed by January 2025.

    We should confront the conclusion reached by the UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry after examining the broader pattern of killing, deprivation, destruction, displacement, and official conduct: that Israel has committed genocide in Gaza.

    “Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will.” - Frederick Douglass

    Do not look at the frequency with which these principles are violated and conclude that resistance to them is futile. Draw the opposite conclusion.

    Their violation is the reason we have to keep insisting upon them.

    Demand better. Do not concede what is right simply because others have.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago (12 children)

    This is wrong on many levels. Comparing a nation that went to war and the unfortunate reality of civilians getting caught in the crosshairs to civilians being massacred over a terrorist act is nonsensical.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago* (10 children)

    Blaming civilians not involved in a war for a terrorist act is not the same. Furthermore, Netanyahu funded the said terrorist group. Perhaps you should get your vision checked?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    I appreciate you do not blame the civilians.

    I will repeat it was never a war.

    Collective punishment isn't a thing in modern warfare and is definitely a crime against humanity.

    This is an example of a corrupt politician getting a shit ton of civilians killed to stay out of prison. Not something you get to respond with an ongoing civilian massacre to.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (3 children)

    Israeli voted for genocidal leaders. Aren't you justifying october7 attrocities with your logic?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago*

    https://www.isdglobal.org/digital-dispatch/no-innocents-the-collective-blame-of-palestinians-online/

    'ISD analysis found that public figures contributed disproportionately to dehumanising ‘no innocents’ discourse, particularly in Hebrew. Of the top ten most reshared posts in the Hebrew-language dataset, three came from high-profile politicians supportive of ‘no innocents’ rhetoric, including a sitting member of the Knesset (MK)."

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago (18 children)

    How many times can Israeli soldiers murder Palestinian children for the crime of "rock-throwing" before you decide enough is enough?

    Just pick a number. Any number.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (5 children)

    Some of us do. The problem is that only Israel has the capacity to and is committing genocide.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    Your gaslighting is bad and you should feel bad

    Where gaslighting?

    Are you gaslighting me right now?

    You don’t need to commit a genocide to handle a terrorist group

    Agreed. Never said otherwise.

    There are people who have rescinded their support for Israel after initially giving it to them after the 7th of October

    While this is correct, how is it relevant to the discussion?

    To paraphrase myself from other comments: (...)

    Which parts of "UN should" did you not understand?

    Like, what are you even arguing here? Which specific points I made you disagree with and how?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (4 children)

    Dude you should lose custody of your children for saying shit like this.

    I hope you are one day oppressed by the same shit you support for others.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago (17 children)

    Oh please. Acting like Israel hasn't been killing Palestinians for decades. Imagine how Palestine could look now if Israel hadn't been subjugating and oppressing them for the last 60+ years.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago

    Yes, Israeli soldiers murder children, and then get attacked, and then go murder more children.

    Never do the pussies bother to fight anyone in a uniform or anyone armed.

    It's always, "Oops, I had to blow up a children's hospital again." Fucking despicable.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (8 children)

    Yea in a ratio of about 10 Palestinians per 1 Israeli. Neither side has clean hands. But one side sure is hell bent on completely genociding the other. This both sides shit you're spewing is disgusting. Recognize that a genocide is taking place and is killing tens of thousands of innocents.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (6 children)

    In your opinion it would've been OK for Israel to retaliate if the ratio was closer to 1:1?

    Neither side has clean hands

    100% true.

    But one side sure is hell bent on completely genociding the other

    You mean the side that had the "obliteration" of the other side mentioned multiple times in its charter?

    Recognize that a genocide is taking place and is killing tens of thousands of innocents.

    Agreed. The UN should've stepped in a long time ago and provided much needed security.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    Israel won't let the UN step in. UN buildings, programs, and investigators were some of the first targeted, and the US has veto power within the UN. One side has the capacity and is committing genocide, and when you bother to look at what they are saying in Israeli social networks, they are not shy about it. Israel also killed the alternatives for Hamas, bolstering it over the PA to prevent the possibility of a legitimate Palestinian state from rising.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    Israel won’t let the UN step in. UN buildings, programs, and investigators were some of the first targeted, and the US has veto power within the UN.

    I know, it was wishful thinking.

    when you bother to look at what they are saying in Israeli social networks, they are not shy about it

    Checking social networks is pointless. Hell, check German socials and you'd think that AfD has 99% votes already. Check US networks and it's a literal civil war. Check Polish socials and half the country is already surrendered to russia.

    Too much disinformation for socials to be any source of information.

    It's better to look at what was going on just before the attack - and that is: Netanyahu having around 30% support and multiple lawsuits being prepared against him, with people protesting on the streets.

    Israel also killed the alternatives for Hamas

    When was that? I know that Hamas won general elections in 2006 and no other elections have happened in Gaza ever since and, from what you're saying, it seems that I missed another conflict that happened between then and now, where Fatah was eliminated.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

    You will be "disciplined" for this point of view on Lemmy. Many here don't even realize that all fundamentalist parties involved are dedicated to the total obliteration of the other. They don't understand that this is international, not Israeli vs. Palestinian, but more Jews vs. Islam (which is in itself a gross simplification).

    Others want all of these millions of Israelis to "disappear", as if they have somewhere to go. Others want... more.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

    I know from their standpoint the Jews were "chosen" for certain things that's recognised by almost all christian religions due to the suffering in egypt. The thing that should really alarm people about israel though is that they wouldn't let the gazans leave the area to seek asylum elsewhere and even international citizens in the strip got caught up in this as well. I agree that it's an extremely complex situation due to the history going back Millenia, not 80+ years.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    While I agree with the theology standpoint, unfortunately that & history (regardless of recognition, if it was most western countries that occupied the space they would have declared it theirs a long time ago) has made it complicated in the minds of people that occupy both regions.

    The palestinians are treated as less-than and while there is a few people over there that could do with a firing squad personally I don't think the population should be responsible for the decisions of their leaders, Instead of just bombing endlessly on civilians israel could have instead allowed humanitarians in to not only allow people to seek asylum but to let the international civilians out.

    Either way while I agree that there isn't always an option for peace, we will never have peace as long as we keep causing the terrorism feedback loop that just creates more terrorists. It's like when you send a kid into prison, he just learns to become a better criminal.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    There's a deeper level to it. Israel, especially netanyahu over his long career, created the entire situation. And they did it directly and intentionally

    Palestine used to be governed by the PLA. Hamas are hardliners - their founding goal was to turn the region against Israel and drive out the Israeli people. Hardliners are the least effective form of any movement

    Israel held elections for Palestinians, giving them an official group to negotiate with, as well as some legal recognition that allows them to collect funds

    As soon as Hamas won a single election, they stopped holding elections and the PLA leaders were assassinated soon after

    Not to mention the on again off again attacks... Israel would build them infrastructure like hospitals and desalinization plants, then blow them up

    There's a lot to say on the topic, so I'll end it with a fact that really puts things in contrast...

    Before October 11, the average age in Gaza was under 18, and it isn't like their population numbers were booming

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago* (1 child)

    Lust for power and wanting to be godlike is pretty surface level. Nothing too deep there. Same-old, same-old throughout history.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 weeks ago

    There's a lot more to it than that... It's a complicated situation primarily motivated by a lust for power and profit, but there's layers and layers to it. There's many involved interests and much to learn about how and why horrible things are happening

    It's easy to point to a war criminal and just label them as evil, but then you learn nothing useful

    No one is evil in their own story, and by understanding the motivations and methods of great acts of evil you can understand where to apply pressure to stop it, as well as recognizing these same patterns elsewhere before it ends in another example of the worst crime against humanity

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago* (4 children)

    Isreal has the right to defend itself

    Israel has been on the offense for 80 years, read a damn history book. PRETENDING that this began on Oct.7 is intellectual dishonesty and evidence that you regurgitate talking points sans critical thought.

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  • [+] 3 points 1 month ago (4 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (3 children)

    still a completely pro Israel take.

    how can there be peace when Israel kidnaps Palestinians off the streets with impunity?

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  • [+] 2 points 1 month ago (3 children)
  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    No signs of escalation like, say, sniping children in the crowd of a peaceful protest at the walls of a ghetto?

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