anon6789 comments on What work of fiction (book/comic/movie/tv show/etc.) changed the way you think about the world? Why?

[–] anon6789@lemmy.world 10 points 2 months ago (6 children)

Near the end of my first read through, and it's been hard for me to believe one guy wrote so many different points of view so well. I've been given both a lot of new perspectives to consider, and I've gotten good reminders of things that I already believed, but had gotten a little bit forgotten as things happen and I've become a little jaded toward some things.

Lately, having just finished Making Money, I've been thinking again about what type of ruler Lord Vetinari is. He's got a lot of aspects that I feel I wouldn't like to him and his leadership style, but I also feel no one comes close to being a better choice for Ankh-Morepork. Plot armor certainly helps, but whenever he puts plots in motion, it's hard to argue with results,

I also like how the Nights Watch doesn't get rid of its derelicts, it finds ways for them to be successful. I have been around some very difficult people, but very few that are totally useless, and once you can narrow down what their strengths are, you can find a lot of value and often a decent person in most everyone.

Also a big fan of Death! Some of the best moments of justice and sweetest of rewards have come from him.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 6 child comments

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 5 points 2 months ago (5 children)

I've been thinking again about what type of ruler Lord Vetinari is.

He's basically a benevolent dictator. He adopts the role of a tyrant for pragmatic reasons, but he seems to sincerely care about the well-being of Ankh-Morporkians.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 5 child comments

[–] anon6789@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago (4 children)

It makes me wonder if that's ever truly possible. And I'm not as sure it's the citizens he protects so much as the city itself. He's either at least been partially responsible for some killings and will let people die when it benefits not so much himself, but the proper functioning of the city.

Someone like him seems crucial to ensuring a great society, but how do you find someone like that, what would keep them from crossing the line into a less altruistic authority, and what does that society do when that person is inevitably gone?

Him and House from Fallout have been two people I've spent a lot of time thinking about. Both are capable of bringing order out of chaos, but it's a very fine line they seem to walk.

I like Vetinari in fiction, but I'm unsure how I'd feel in real life. To most people he is still scary and seemingly a threat. Only a select few know most of it is just reputation and show.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 4 child comments

[–] daychilde@lemmy.world 5 points 2 months ago

I'd say benevolent dictators are absolutely possible, but they are impossible to plan for. If there is room for any dictator, there is no good way to filter that to only benevolent ones. I think the best practical political systems tend to assume people will not be benevolent, so try and set things up so that people are incentivized to act benevolently as much as possible.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 4 points 2 months ago (2 children)

And I'm not as sure it's the citizens he protects so much as the city itself

I think he'd consider that a distinction without difference. The city is the citizens.

He's either at least been partially responsible for some killings and will let people die when it benefits not so much himself, but the proper functioning of the city.

The "proper functioning of the city" is a state of relative harmony and peace between the citizens. Most of those that found their end at his direction were rather opposed to the "proper functioning of the city".

what does that society do when that person is inevitably gone?

I surmise that much of his efforts in building the integrity of the city, and its institutions, might be said to constitute an inoculation of sorts against any "greedy and clumsy" successors.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 2 child comments

[–] anon6789@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago (1 child)

I do like book Vetinari, purely because we do have those insights to his thought process and that as he's a fictional character, his methods will work as intended.

As I've watched the representative democracy in the US make its faults very obvious, it's got me questioning other types of leadership. Distributed power like communism or anarchism have some appealing features, but radically changing any government seems to require some form of authoritarianism to see the change through and to maintain it. That seems a lot like what Vetinari did to stabilize the city. He's great as a fictional leader, and I think his grey areas highlight some important differences between him, and let's say, Carrot.

Thinking we could find a real life Vetinari is what still concerns me about a political revolution, as so many real people will promise what he brought to a place like Ankh, but then instead prioritize themselves. He makes me both believe a little more that we could have a successful change in governance, but then everything in the real world reminds me it is fiction. Not impossible, but not likely as real humans are so fallible.

Discworld books feel the opposite of real life in that way. In the books, we know more of Vetinari than we do of the life of most peasants, and what we do know of those peasants, we know they fear Vetinari and think he's kinda evil, while we the readers know he's not. In real life, we see leaders try and present the good side, usually to con us, and be evil behind the scenes. If we saw someone acting like Vetinari, most of us would probably not support him, although Trumpism shows that to maybe not be so reliable, but I'm not sold on him really being altruistic behind the scenes for many, many reasons.

So while I support Vetinari in the books, it just feel paradoxical how we could ever get such a leader for real.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 1 child comment

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 4 points 2 months ago

Yes the benevolent dictator archetype only really works in fiction. Philosopher kings have been suggested as the most efficient form of government for thousands of years, but the difficulty is in finding them in the real world. We could never fully trust any would-be tyrant.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent