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There is no pro capitalist left (lemmy.ml)
submitted 4 months ago by [A] to c/mop
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[–] [S, A] 35 points 4 months ago (19 children)

European governments are not left either. You cannot be capitalist and left.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (12 children)

    I believe I was talking about parties, not governments.

    Social democrats did successfully combine capitalism with left wing policies for decades. In the present day it's becoming increasingly obvious the globalists have thoroughly outplayed socdem policies, but that doesn't change the fact that they used to work, and it's entirely possible that they could still be made to work with some changes.

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  • [–] 10 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (10 children)

    So housing and food is free in those SocDem states?

    Chris on why Europeans are better accountants
    chrislundartist

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago (9 children)

    In some of them the state will pay for those, yes. There's other kinds of leftist policy besides communism.

    I have no idea what you're trying to communicate with that quote.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (8 children)

    Apparently I misquoted the wrong excerpt, on the wrong threads post. Corrected the exact quote I meant to post now, unaware the exact URL.

    In some of them the state will pay for those, yes

    Oh? Could you list them?

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (7 children)

    I still have no idea what you're trying to communicate with that quote.

    Oh? Could you list them?

    Any country with welfare. Some are even experimenting with a radical concept called UBI, a leftist policy that slots very neatly into existing socdem frameworks.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    Did you read it?
    Being a great capitalist doesn't equate to being socialist or democratic fwiw.

    Seeing as you're incapable of actually listing welfare states that capitalistically yield free housing and food, I’ll consider your comments🧵 as hallucinations or delusions.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Take your pick of European country and look into social housing. Yes its not as widespread as it could be and has faults, but it is a system of providing housing to people outside the market/capitalist system.

    Insisting on "free" as the marker of being outside a market system is illiterate, resources have to be expended to create things and their has to be accounting for this somehow. Even things that are are free at the point of use (oh look like the UK's NHS, another example of a left wing policy in existence) have to manage their resources and ensure that they are distributed correctly.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

    If I were to use your pick (UK), your argument is invalid.

    Insisting on “free” as the marker of being outside a market system is illiterate

    Oh, so you can't see a system outside capitalism.

    resources have to be expended to create things

    And it should be policy to be free to reuse.

    their has to be accounting for this somehow.

    nrly.

    manage their resources and ensure that they are distributed correctly

    This is the key: managing resources to serve everyone, and distributing to the needed. Not the bourgeoisie.
    Anarchists believe we can manage those resources efficiently and equivocally. Capitalist, and in the case of SocDems, believe they can do so for their populists.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    Its not perfect therefore its not leftwing, gosh who could have predicted that.

    A gift economy being a (unproven in an industrialised context) way of running an economy other than a market system does not mean it is the only way of being outside a market system. A is not B does not imply that C is B.

    And you still need to account for resources, just handwaving gift economy does not relieve that pressure, you need a system for how much gets put into healthcare as opposed to education as opposed to transport as opposed to research. That means tracking resources numerically and that means something along the lines of money.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago*

    Its not perfect

    Therefore your argument is imperfect. Correct your argument a little better, maybe you’ll convince us how King Charles should own more housing and food than the entire population of the UK, imperialist scum.

    And you still need to account for resources

    You really don't.

    system for how much gets put into healthcare as opposed to education as opposed to transport as opposed to research

    In anarchy, everyone one of these gets supported. In UK, everyone of these get gutted. The priorities of privatizers are theirs, not ours.

    That means tracking resources numerically

    Again, nrly.

    money

    Which you know is theft.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    UBI is capitalist bull crap. Get the fuck out of here if you’re not a leftist.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago*

    Now now, we don't need to be exclusionary when clearly the respondent is having a temporary lapse of comprehension.
    As anarchists, we have to intersect on the ignorances as we see them, and mutual aid resources for them to get educated on their failings.
    We lift people up, not kick bridges down.
    Be the anarchy you want to see in the world deary

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    Now you're mixing parties with governments. The former can be (see social democrats) while the latter is harder to analyze given that they are mostly coalitions.

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  • [–] [S, A] 21 points 4 months ago* (3 children)

    Governments parties coalitions whatever, if you are capitalist you are not left.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago* (1 child)

    Similarly, If I shit and take a shower after, I’m still not clean!

    Sarcasm aside, this sentiment is oozing subjective interpretation mistaken for objective fact. Political views (like more or less any other opinions) are far more complicated than just: “if you are this one thing, you cannot be this other thing.”

    You can be fiscally right-leaning and socially left-leaning, as well as the other way around. Likewise, as painful as it may be to hear, capitalism is not mutually exclusive with leftism. By the logic of your opinion, Mamdani isn’t left-leaning either, because he’s still participating in and thereby protecting the capitalist systems of the US. It’s just a silly way of thinking.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago

    You can be fiscally right-leaning and socially left-leaning, as well as the other way around.

    No, you actually cannot logically be for the oppression of people and against the oppression of people. Being economically right wing and 'socially' left wing means you're completely fine with gay slaves but if someone suggests getting rid of slavery you're going to shoot them..

    Likewise, as painful as it may be to hear, capitalism is not mutually exclusive with leftism.

    It is, by definition. There is no possible radical change position that keep capitalism at this point in time. Every variation of capitalism has been tried and has failed.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    You can dislike (like I do) social democrats without clinging to them somehow not being left, plenty of more coherent leftists out there to support instead. Still doesn't nullify that they've made the capitalist hellscape slightly better and "more left" here and there. The world ain't as simple as your simple brain wishes it was.

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