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[–] 74 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (173 children)

I hate, with a burning passion, the term "biological sex".

We have frankly, no fucking clue how our genetics and sex are intertwined.

We used to think it was "just chromosomes", but then we discovered "biological men" with double-X, or double-X and a Y, or vice-versa.

Or intersex individuals.

Then, we also got to consider that, say, a "biological woman" can transition to a "transgender man", which renders no change to their genes, just hormone levels, and they see physical development, voice deepening, hair growth, etc, just like a "biological man", or vice-versa.

In conclusion, "biological sex" is just another gross simplification created by people who's minds are so pathetic they can't comprehend reality and so choose to live by mantra founded in disproven pseudo-sciences, religion, and other excuses to avoid critical thinking, and then put themselves in positions of power.

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  • [–] 53 points 5 months ago (9 children)

    Doesn’t sound to me like you know the difference between sex and gender. We do have a pretty solid idea of how genetics and sex are intertwined, including intersex conditions. Gender is a whole different thing.

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  • [–] 11 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (8 children)

    You're mostly correct, tho the bit about genetics (+++) and sex is a bellcurve meme... There's tons we don't know and a lot of it is a giant interconnected mesh of incredibly complex relationship we barely grasp with very little casual data, and just a tiny bit of epidemiological inference that we can almost try to reason from.

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  • [–] 13 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (7 children)

    Can you explain further? I’m a biochemist / medical lab scientist, and between my studies in genetics, human sexuality, and endocrinology, it seems pretty well figured out. Between “normal” X/Y chromosomes, various chromosomal abnormalities (X, XXX, XXY, XYY, etc), and mutations like androgen insensitivity syndrome it seems there is significant causal data. Not sure if they’ve studied these with knockout mice but it’s well beyond inference at this point.

    I’m not sealioning here, it has been like a decade since I was actively learning this stuff and I’m sure there have been more discoveries. In general though it seems like we know the genetics, we know the hormones and receptors involved, the developmental process and various maladies are known, etc.

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  • [–] 8 points 5 months ago* (5 children)

    That is absolutely not what I’m saying. I’m saying the biological processes that lead to intersex or otherwise “complicated” sex conditions are fairly well understood. Sex is much more complicated than just the M/F dichotomy, and the current scientific and medical understanding of sex supports this.

    Those who deny that sex is more complicated than binary M/F are rejecting well established science.

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

    A) No it doesn't. Where I live, it is entirely legal for a man to enter the women's bathroom. Nothing to do with transgender folks; it simply is not a crime.

    B) The UK has an official "gender recognition certificate" program. If you wanted to draw a line, I would think that individuals with such a certificate would fall on their recognized side of the line; however, under the new standard, a trans women with an official government issued gender recognition certificate is still considered by that same government to be a man for the purposes of using a toilet.

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  • [–] 12 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Oooor just let trans folk use the damn bathroom? There doesn't need to have a line drawn

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  • [–] 18 points 5 months ago (22 children)

    I never discriminated trans people.

    You directly replied to a post talking about biological essentialism and a misunderstanding of sex as a mechanism for discriminating against trans people, telling them "get a grip" and that caring about that scientific reality is "stupid fucking shit."

    Whether you believe it is or not, that is a form of discrimination, as it essentially posits that we should just ignore these facts to appease closed-minded individuals to "win" the culture war, even if that "win" comes at the expense of... being trans not being considered "real" or "biologically accurate" by those who entirely misunderstand what being trans is.

    You need to realize that pushing scientific fact to the margins to appease other people fighting the 'culture war' does nothing but harm people so those other people can continue to live in ignorance.

    Your mentality is the same as someone arguing that we shouldn't have talked about there being no biological evidence for black people being dumber than white people because that would "lose us the culture war" against white slave owners that think they should get to own slaves because black people are dumber than them. Maybe you win their votes, but you've done nothing but enable the continuation of slavery by not confronting its widely believed yet incorrect ideological backing.

    Not talking about things like intersex individuals and the unknowns about the links between sex and gender doesn't win you anything in the long term if it comes at the cost of every single trans and intersex person's (millions of people in just the USA, and that's likely an undercount) rights by backsliding on public understanding of the subject.

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  • [–] 12 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    Get a fucking grip on fucking reality you stupid fucking idiot. Stop inventing things in your head to disagree with you putrid rotting dog cunt.

    I see you're not exactly into constructive conversation. Maybe chill out instead of getting so angry at comments online that it sends you into a fit of swearing rage?

    justify it

    Sure. Any time, any day. I doubt you'll even read past the first sentence given how irrationally angry you seem to be, but maybe you'll prove me wrong.

    • The vast majority of people do not even know there are sexes that could be defined outside the binary of male and female. They don't know that chromosome combinations outside XX and XY exist at all.
    • When people are told this, many of them refuse to accept it, and simply cast it as "outliers" that in the end, don't change their belief that "there are only 2 sexes", sometimes because their religion simply states there's only 2 against all currently known evidence, or even if they are just more broadly liberal and would still say gender is separate from sex. It is an uncomfortable thing for some to come to terms with to understand that something so deeply ingrained into our culture is much more complicated than it seems at a glance.
    • This has been a known fact for centuries, and yet society broadly still assumes, by default, that it is "abnormal" and "undesirable", so surgeries are often performed on intersex individuals as babies to "correct" their sex characteristics to match just the two binary options most people are familiar with, even if that individual later finds out and would otherwise have not wanted the surgery.
    • To this day, people like you are continuing to call people like me a "putrid rotting dog cunt" for explaining this well-researched, broadly demonstrated topic with widespread occurrences across the globe, when the more reasonable answer to being told such a fact would be to spend even a minute on any search engine to find out you're going against the whole of medical consensus and seemingly getting incredibly incensed over the fact that nobody agrees with you.
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  • [–] 9 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    You aren’t adressing what they said

    Every part of their statement was either reaffirmed or backed up with additional supporting statements in what I wrote. Either you didn't read what I typed, or you simply don't have the greatest reading comprehension and can't see how my statements back up what they originally posted.

    you are just stating random facts I never disagreed with.

    Those 'random facts' are directly reaffirming the other person's statements, which you called "the stupidest fucking shit I have seen today." Is it safe to say that you calling something stupid probably means you disagree with it?

    You are disingenuous

    Keep telling yourself that, I'm sure you gotta fuel that anger somehow. It's not you who is wrong, it must be everyone else!

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  • [–] 8 points 5 months ago

    biological sex is everything you have describe what are you even disagreeing with

    Someone said, at least to summarize, that it's stupid to think there's only two sexes, and that people are intentionally ignorant of that fact.

    You called that statement "stupid fucking shit", then in another comment said "I disagreed with this fucking idiot that’s the extent of it." as if that changed the fact that what you were disagreeing with was their statement.

    Thus, the understanding is that you think those ideas are stupid, and thus incorrect.

    Even now, you just said "I am not talking about gender." Guess what? I'm not either. I'm talking about societal understanding of sex characteristics and how they get classified, just like the original comment you said was stupid was doing.

    Of course I'm talking about biological sex, that's the primary component of the thing you called stupid. What else am I supposed to be addressing here? You literally re-stated your point again, saying "This is the stupidest fucking shit I have seen today" while specifically quoting the part of the original comment addressing biological sex. Do you need a refresher on what you yourself quoted? Here it is:

    In conclusion, “biological sex” is just another gross simplification created by people who’s minds are so pathetic they can’t comprehend reality and so choose to live by mantra founded in disproven pseudo-sciences, religion, and other excuses to avoid critical thinking, and then put themselves in positions of power.

    Does that statement not literally begin by addressing biological sex?

    Do you even know the topic of the argument you're having right now? Are you just blindly disagreeing with people without reading the words you're quoting? I'm not sure if you're simply angry for the sake of it and ignorant of what you're talking about, or if you're just trolling on purpose, but regardless I'm done with this comment chain. You clearly aren't acting in good faith, and you clearly don't have a grasp on what it is you even started arguing about.

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  • [–] 9 points 5 months ago (9 children)

    This just goes to show transphobes and bigots refuse to learn about the reality we live in and instead lash out because something doesn’t fit their worldview.

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  • [–] 10 points 5 months ago (7 children)

    I only see you lashing out. Op is 100% correct and you are refusing to learn anything. Instead you call people a putrid rotting dog. Honestly I bet a putrid rotting dog smells better than you do.

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago* (5 children)

    Because science and peer reviewed data helped to inform me of reality. As well as living with non-binary and trans people, not to mention dating a trans man.

    I am not being taught anything I don't already know.

    I think you need to take a logic class or read logic primer. Let’s remove the negatives, “I am being taught everything I already know” hmmm yeah that makes sense. You should try learning things you don’t already know. This is what I ment by refusing to learn. Not challenging your own beliefs doesn’t lead to growth, it leads to ignorance.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (4 children)

    Should have figured you'd cite a known anti-trans organization that distorts scientific reality to make a point. (oh boy, I sure do wonder why they have an article titled "8-Step Action Plan to Eliminate Gender Ideology", surely because they actually understand broadly accepted and heavily researched science and not because they just want to make a political point while sounding scientific!)

    They think sex can only be determined by gametes. This ignores the fundamental reality that many humans do not produce either of them while retaining wholly ambiguous or non-ambiguous reproductive organs, that some humans can produce both (albeit rarely), or that some humans lose or gain the ability to produce one throughout their lives. (not producing ova until puberty? Tough luck, guess you're not a female! Body hasn't fully developed internal reproductive organs until later in life? Guess you're sex-less until then! Does your body never produce sperm or ova because of a genetic issue? Guess it's impossible to assign you a sex!)

    It also ignores the fact that we tend to classify sex based on phenotypic characteristics. If someone has a penis, generally masculine face and fat distribution, but XX chromosomes and is still able to sometimes produce ova while not producing sperm, even if they're missing the rest of the necessary reproductive functions, for all intensive purposes, you would call that person male. If every other part of their body is typically male, there is no reason to continually insist that person is actually a female because somewhere inside their body they can produce ova that don't do anything.

    If sex is determined by gametes, there are exceptions to the rule that can't be classified solely as one or the other.

    If sex is determined by chromosomes, then any exception from XX or XY disproves the rule.

    If sex is determined by phenotypic characteristics, then we see a spectrum in how they present.

    This also simply ignores the fundamental reality that even if you can oversimplify a complex condition into one of two more common options, it doesn't mean that is correct or accurate to do so.

    To use the analogy I used before, you could say that all numbers for simplicity, should be rounded to either 1 or 0, even if it's 0.9, 0.2, or 0.2398547293875. That could be useful shorthand, and it could generally describe semi-closely how those numbers would operate within a broadly binary system, but at the end of the day those numbers are not 0 or 1.

    Claiming that "0.9 = 1" would be stupid.

    Claiming "0.9 is basically 1 so why bother ever giving it a different label" would be stupid.

    Claiming "0.9 is close enough to 1 to not make a huge difference in outward perception and day-to-day use, so we can rely on it for shorthand while understanding 0.9 is not 1" would be very reasonable.

    You cannot look at a spectrum, say "they're still within the other 2, therefore there's only 2", and call it a day.

    It's true these conditions can present similarly to one of the two typical male or female sets of characteristics, or that they can derive from what are often the typical chromosomes of either group. It's not true that they are male or female and there is only a binary and nothing else.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    To borrow your analogy, gametes range from 0 - 1 and 100 - 101. That’s a binary.

    There is also the absence of gametes entirely. Hence, you can't just rely on gametes to determine sex unless you also think humans can be sex-less.

    You're also presupposing, again, that gametes must be the sole way we determine sex, therefore if they are a binary, sex is a binary. You can have something that is a binary that is also irrelevant or not the sole determiner of what something is as part of another category.

    What makes the reset of their body “typically male”?

    This is broadly considered by most people for most purposes to be the phenotypic characteristics we most often associate with people considered male. We determined that a group of people commonly had a similar set of phenotypic characteristics, and applied the term "male" to it. This is subjectively determined by society. We could have additionally defined sex based on skin colors, the size or shape of reproductive organs, eye color, etc. We just decided we wanted a category to broadly define people's phenotypic characteristics, so we looked at the two most distinct, broad groups, and didn't bother splitting up further. The category does not have a sole, objective determiner, as I've demonstrated to you multiple times now. You can have one gamete, both gametes, neither gametes, or only have or stop having a particular gamete at a different point in your life. They do not make for a bulletproof framework underlying sex determination.

    It is like asking me to define what a "chair" is. I could say something with a flat surface, back, and 4 legs, but that could accommodate a bench or a bed, for example. it has objectively measurable characteristics, most chairs will be readily identified as a chair and not a bench or a bed by most people, but you will also find some pieces of furniture that are just close enough for people to have differing opinions on. There is no objective measurement. This is annoying to our human brains that love to have a more concrete understanding of things, which is why the outdated idea of the sex binary persists in spite of all evidence of those who don't land neatly on either side.

    Later, as science has progressed, we have found that many people do not solely have this similar set of phenotypic or genotypic characteristics, or have the same phenotypic characteristics with different genotypic ones. Thus, we have expanded our understanding of what sex is to clarify that we know it is not a binary, since we can see that individuals exist without fitting neatly into these groups. This is why the term intersex exists. Science changes when we learn more about the natural world, you are just refusing to acknowledge the advancements we have made in our understanding of human sex over time.

    Welcome to the scientific consensus.

    I could say the same to you, but you seem intent on rejecting what we've learned because it's not as neat and simple as you want it to be. Sex is messy, sex is a spectrum, nearly all scientists agree on this fact.

    I can tell this isn't a productive conversation, and you seem to be dead set on staying exactly where you are, comfortably holding the same beliefs irrespective of all evidence, so I'm going to mute this thread for myself now. Feel free to respond, but you won't get another response from me, it'd be a waste of my time.

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  • [–] 12 points 5 months ago (11 children)

    I don’t like it by association, because most of the time I hear it used by intolerant people (like right wing assholes on the “news”). Sometimes, though, I hear it used without malice, presumably because people don’t know what else to say.

    Pardon my ignorance, but what term would you suggest instead? Birth sex? Assigned sex? Something else?

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago (5 children)

    That's a juvenile understanding of sex, yes

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    i mean, you're literally wrong?

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  • [–] 30 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (41 children)

    Biological sex is a dogwhistle made digestible to appease the apathetic moderate

    Edit: and this entire thread is proof of that 🍿

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  • [–] 21 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (29 children)

    That isn't even a reliable indicator, and if it comes up, it is a discussion between the patient and the doctor and no one else. We have the language to be specific. Besides, doctors don't even know what to do with trans people regardless of gender or surgeries because all medical research on the topic has been blocked, erased, or burned by knuckledraggers

    (MTF) When I go to doctors I have to explain to them that if they run my bloodwork as Male, every single damn metric on it is going to be flashing bright red. When it's run as Female, I can get actual data out of it. Also guess who you go to if you have titty problems.

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (5 children)

    Yes, and the language for that is "biological sex." If you go to the doctor, they will ask you for your biological sex.

    "Biological sex" is poor language because it doesn't actually provide any useful information. It says nothing about my hormone levels, it says nothing about my fat distribution, it says nothing about my (in)ability to have kids, it says nothing about my dose requirements, it says nothing about my genitals, it says nothing about my medical history, it says nothing about my BMI, it masks certain cancer risks, it has never actually achieved anything useful at the doctor's office. All it does is placate transphobes and cause bureaucratic headaches.

    If a medical form needs to know if I can get pregnant, the correct language is "are you able to get pregnant". It's not transphobic to ask that in a medical context, if anything it's expected. It is transphobic to assume a trans person can't answer that truthfully. Besides, the question also covers cis women who can't get pregnant and trans men who can.

    Doctors don't immediately get amnesia when something gets defunded ... But claiming that doctors suddenly don't know what to do is a hyperbole that misses the actual issue.

    Yes, they literally do seemingly get amnesia. One of the main complaints we have about doctors is that they dismiss every concern by blaming it on us being trans. I've heard it described as "trans broken leg syndrome". It's a similar issue to what cis women face, almost like it's a systematic issue that affects anyone who isn't a cis man.

    That should all be taken into account, of course, but pretending that "biological sex" is useless in medical contexts is an ignorant take.

    This is contradictory. Trans people already face discrimination and confusion from doctors on the norm. Eg: I've even had issues with my ophthalmologist, as if being trans has any effect whatsoever on my eyes. A single binary "biological sex" marker erases all the nuance involved and strips us of the language needed to properly convey it.

    And besides, if "biological sex" is such a bogus concept, then what do we even contrast "gender" with in the first place?

    Individual physical characteristics. Call it "Sex" and leave it open ended for all I care. It's the enforcement of a strict binary, removal of agency, and purposeful ignorance of modern science that I take issue with - all while hiding under the term "biological". It is for those reasons that it is often used as a dogwhistle.


    Finally, your persistent sealioning only contributes to the problem that no one ever fucking listens to trans people. We are a tiny and very vulnerable minority who are constantly being drowned out in a sea of cis voices that think they know the trans experience better than us (eg: when was the last time you saw NYT quote a trans person?) You have easily typed out more than any trans person in the conversation but have seemingly learned absolutely nothing from it.

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago* (9 children)

    I've yet to have any single interaction with a doctor where knowing I was born with a penis has been helpful beyond not having to ask questions like "might you be pregnant?", but so many flags in medical paperwork that just result from them mislabeling me as a male.

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago (8 children)
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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (7 children)

    Is it transphobic for a doctor to ask a trans man if he might be pregnant, or no?

    no

    if they are, at the time, able to be pregnant, it makes sense and is not transphobic

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  • [–] 16 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (43 children)

    I totally understand what you’re saying, but if you take gender out of it and just think about humans as any other animal, you could classify animals with penises and animals with vaginas separately especially if you’re breeding them. The AI overlords won’t care when they’re breeding us.

    EDIT: two types of genitalia instead of just penis and vagina. And not all but many animals.

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago* (14 children)

    All good. I’m referring to the comment that I replied to stating that they don’t like the term “biological sex.” Not saying that trans people should be bucketed into being men or women based on their goodies. I’m saying that biologically, across many animals, specifically mammals, we can say something has this kind of genitalia or that. Call it male or female. Call it bapu and beepo. It’s a biological difference that can be classified along with other traits.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (5 children)

    ...nope. Her body can't produce either. And she has a uterus and fallopian tubes.

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    "centred around" is a subjective projection rather than statement of a fact in cases where gamete production genuinely does not occur. For this person, her gonads never developed into either testes or ovaries, so by this definition she would be of neither sex. I'm OK with that, but it does undermine your point about the strict binary.

    My question to you is why does this matter, in the context of accessing bathrooms and changing rooms? Do you think inspecting reproductive anatomy is a proportionate measure?

    More broadly speaking, what is the point of recording the 'biological sex' of a person who, through transition, has changed their physiology and endocrine profile to that associated with the opposite, and no longer has their natal reproductive anatomy? Who would this benefit?

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  • [–] 13 points 5 months ago (19 children)

    Here's the thing though, pretty much everything you just said is wrong. It's not that simple if you think of humans as any other animal. Here's a video link that is pretty long, but dives fairly deep into this topic that is massive from a scientific point of view.

    https://youtu.be/nVQplt7Chos

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    Colin M. Wright, the author of the book you linked, is an "anti-transgender activist". Here is a nice collection of his bigotry.

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Reality isn’t transphobic, but that guy definitely is.

    Also I’m not discussing sex in humans with you again. I and many people, who’re are way more knowledgeable, have wasted hours of their life doing that. Much less under a post about a stupid bathroom law.


    PS: I’m sooo sorry that I said that the piece of written work you linked to was a book.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago* (7 children)

    That "paper" literally starts off deliberately conflating sex and gender in order to muddy the waters to reframe the conversation. He used a lot of words to essentially define male as "has penis that can go in vagina for purpose of procreation" and female as "has vagina to receive penis for purpose of procreation" (which still wouldn't make sex binary since intersex exist) and had very little to do with biology on the whole.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (5 children)

    The thesis relies on conflating sex and gender. Sex from an evolutionary biology standpoint and gender from a modern sociology standpoint are mutually exclusive. Literally apples to oranges.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    Except he uses the justification to push his anti trans agenda or he wouldn't getting to gender at all and you're deliberately engaging in bad faith because you know this already

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    No he goes out of his way to being up gender and conflate sex and gender to push his transphobic agenda, like you're doing right now too. Gender isn't relevant when discussing gametes but he specifically goes out of his way to conflate gender and sex because he's a transphobic pushing an agenda. He's not respected and generally fringe in his field because he uses junk science to push right wing culture war bullshit. And on top of it all an evolutionary biologist is in no way an expert on anything gender related what with gender having nothing to do with evolutionary biology which again doubles down that he and you are pushing a bigot agenda. Fuck off bigot. Gamete differentiation in mammals is not in any way relevant to any discussion on gender, but you know that because you're here in bad faith to be transphobic. And all this because you right wing chuds are afraid to admit you're attracted to chicks with dicks.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago* (5 children)

    Hehe. Powerstruggle is one of the most persistent transphobic conversation derailers on lemmy. They show up in any post related to trans people to discuss their pet transphobic theories, often one which Trump gave. Imagine being intellectuality dominated by Donald Trump!

    I completely understand you blocking them. If I were the mod of a news sub where they repeatedly behaved the way they do, I would wield the ban hammer hard.

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