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[–] 108 points 7 months ago (61 children)

I also wonder whether or not grapheneos, or open source Linux OSs in general, will face any repercussions for failing to comply to these regulations due to the relatively low user count.

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  • [–] 118 points 7 months ago (55 children)

    Hate to say it but systemd, the init system of most Linux distros, already has PRs with maintainer backing to implement DoB recording.

    Some people can't kneel fast enough.

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  • [–] 43 points 7 months ago (26 children)

    Even if we say I agree with this, why even ask for a specific year? Separate into child and adult, and let the super user make that change when asked.

    In theory I’m not opposed to it existing as an option, but I do not like it being mandatory at all. Websites and applications should never be allowed to know any PII without explicit consent.

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  • [–] 32 points 7 months ago (23 children)

    That's there point, with this websites will just know the users age, before it was the users choice: "are you 18 or over?" But now it will be: "I know you're 37.567 years old" user has no idea. Maybe we should add religion and skin color too

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  • [–] 18 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    Like most things, you are not as private and protected as you seem to think you are.

    That doesn't seem like a great argument for doing something that further reduces privacy and protection.

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  • [–] 10 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    Semantics

    Privacy is a human right and I have a choice to who an d which third party collects my data. My own computer with software I build myself doesn’t need mandated age gates.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    can't expose what doesn't exist. if a site asks for age verification, stop using it and find a alternative that respects privacy.

    your OS starts asking for your identity information, to share with everyone that pokes a open API, it's time to jump OSs...

    privacy is something you make a best effort to avoid creating obvious methods of exploiting. you don't share your credit card numbers with every email too, just because they say they cannot prove it was your card on file?

    identity is personal online, no one is entitled to it unless you choose to share it. otherwise it's a invasion of privacy.

    want to protect kids? educate them and keep them off tiktok/social media by fining the parents when they are identified.

    fined twice? treat the kid like you would any other time a theft of service occurs.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago (11 children)

    This is being baked in because of US law. I wouldn't be surprised if the US made some federal laws requiring your religion in the near future.

    There's a big difference between data collection and government mandated identification.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago (9 children)

    People can run secure systems that share minimal info. This requires all systems to store and share specific info. So you're making it illegal to have a private system. Sure most people don't, but now you're making it illegal. You think that's okay because we don't have good privacy laws right now? You want to give up?

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago (7 children)

    How do you want people to protect themselves?

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    Can I ask you to explain your point, "age doesn't matter, your digital footprint carries over?" You mention solutions to protect yourself from the digital footprint carry over, but this law would just make it easier to overcome those solutions.

    Now instead of having to figure out the various unique patterns of accessing the internet to determine info about you, you just tell them your age (or that you're an adult, whatever) on those systems directly.

    I also think it's a bit disingenuous to call 'this is the first step towards something worse' a slippery slope when that is exactly how the creeping erosion of privacy has gone in the US historically, but especially the last few decades.

    You acknowledge that a lot of people don't fully understand how to protect themselves (and offer solutions that require more money, time, and education to accomplish) and in the same breath that is why it's okay that we make data collection easier.

    I know this probably comes across as accusatory, but I really don't mean it that way. I'm genuinely trying to understand what your perspective is.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (3 children)

    I... didn't say that? Not sure if you replied to the wrong person? But I'll try to respond to what I can?

    Oh whoops, if I did, my bad. That's what I was understanding your comment about "it's literally the same check we already have" to be. You're saying there are already age checks for certain sites (and analysis of your web traffic and associated data being sold) and that this is no different, if I understand correctly. It is worth pointing out that while the California law requires no verification, the New York law potentially requires more than just a declaration of age. It's worse elsewhere in the world.

    All of that is the same thing. It is about building profiles...

    Right, but you see how this is also a bad thing right? Given that the FBI has now spoken about buying this data and uses it to target people, I would think that we would all want better privacy protections, not fewer.

    1. This is not exclusive to the US.

    I don't see how that should sway opinion about this being a good or a bad thing. It's a bad thing for everyone, right?

    1. I never said this is "the first step towards something >worse".

    No, I am saying that. I was saying that calling this a slippery slope doesn't feel like it is based in the history of privacy erosion. I'd love to learn more about the original sin in all of this, but just because it isn't the first step doesn't mean we shouldn't fight against consolidated, government-mandated privacy violations, right?

    Yes? I am sorry that protecting your privacy takes effort? I am >sure that if you pay a random sponsor on an LTT video that >they'll claim to do everything for you? Like... I really don't know what to tell you?

    I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not complaining that it's difficult. I'm asking why we don't try and just fix the problem instead of letting something like this slide by because there are other, similar issues.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    I think I'm following what you mean. To me, though, (using your house analogy) it isn't that your ex has a key, it's that the government is demanding that your door remain open. Sure, it's already off the hinges, but it's a whole lot easier to put a door back on than to fight the government about it. It's not currently illegal to protect your data through extreme measures, but this is the beginning of laws that make it illegal. That is why this is worth fighting over to me. What's more, I can hate and fight against more than one thing, so it's not a huge issue to be against this.

    And sure, all this data is out there, but that isn't true for future generations. Old data becomes stale. It just seems like such a defeatist attitude to me to cede ground on this, especially when the laws you mentioned actually being worried about would use this as precedent. It's certainly easier to argue for an ID requirement when you have the data on millions of users lying about their age and use it as justification for a more controlled implementation.

    But either way, I think I need to step away here. I feel like I understand you, I just disagree and to continue beyond this without doing more reading on the topic, laws, and trends won't really help, I think (the last I saw for the New York law was that determining what was an adequate attempt to verify age was fell on the AG, who seemed to be leaning towards third party verification. I'm already out of date with developments there).

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago

    there is no such thing as privacy when sharing private information, that's accessible remotely.

    leaks can and will occur. but more importantly this will be used to create digital associations between inviduals and Their online presence, just like all the other digital identity laws have.

    it protects no one, as getting around it is easy as lying. while intentionally harming adults that comply out of necessity.

    there is a reason people are jumping ship from privacy invading services already...

    the solution is holding parents (and the child) responsible for the action of their childrens actions and not trying to create industry wide privacy invasion for bad actors to use. what's next, gold stars for Linux users to wear?

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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

    "You have selected 'Caucasian Christian'. Permanent light mode has been activated and you can no longer look up porn on Sunday.

    You have selected "Arabic Muslim", sensor access has automatically been granted to determine when you are facing Mecca. If you have too many friendly fire incidents in CoD, the US will deploy reaper drones to your IRL GPS location.

    On a more serious note:

    There's been a lot of talk about protecting kids, but none about protecting grandma from scams and AI misinformation if her systemd age field indicates she's 65 or older. Why is that? Is it because kids don't have rights, so who cares if by protecting them we prevent them from developing a shred of digital literacy? Or is it because the over 65's can vote and kids can't?

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago

    I completely agree with this. treat it like a privilege level. it's that simple. it doesn't need to define "age", it can just define what a account cannot access.

    this is all a slippery slope, and a terrible one at that. gates protect no one and just tech people to learn to get around them...

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  • [–] 9 points 7 months ago

    Any age check is just a good way for predators to know WHO are the actual children, and with the epstein files revealing the whole billionaire and politician interest in trafficking and raping minors, this is essentially the perfect playground for them.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah, to be completely honest, the one place where you actually could trust this kind of information is on your own local (and ideally libre-oriented) OS, never leaving your device and instead obfuscated through an API that's exposed to whatever services need to do an age check, with the potential for additional security impositions or other concessions from data requesters due to the leverage of still having your data controlled by you. This is the bonus FOSS part where we get a say on how we want our data to be exposed on our libre systems. Other users aren't so lucky and don't get to have any voice on how this implementation happens, so we should probably participate in the discourse for those PRs rather than condemn them point blank.

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  • However this is not entirely true either, for two reasons.

    1. Philosophical: FOSS relies on the "many eyes" approach to security. Adding any API, even internal adds another layer of risk. This is exactly why some projects refuse to have API access to application data, even if it runs from a privileged forked service. (Using locked sockets or other methods instead).

    Any open port is a attack vector and no matter how secure it is today, tomorrow is not a promise. More so with how this overlaps with laws like Australia's, which requires all encryption to provide a backdoor for government access. (This means the 5 eyes nations get access by definition to this API while it's in transit, as soon as it leaves the host system...)

    But that's not just the only issue. The whole issue with libxz being targeted by nation state sabotage proved that, it's possible to put backdoors into applications despite "many eyes" on the code. (That case was only caught because one obsessive person over the /testing/ speed... 90% of such attempts in most projects would go unnoticed simply as there is not enough maintainers)

    1. Licensed software: not all applications are completely open, even if the underlying OS is. This is a API thats exposed to all userland applications. Nothing stops Firefox for example from using binary blobs in Thier source to "sign" this data for supporting websites, then send this data to places you don't consent.

    Firefox is just a example, so many applications use permissable licenses that don't require all of the sourcecode to be human readable or even accessible.

    Big thing is nothing stops driver vendors from stealing this data too, no different than Microsoft does, whether or not you are signed Into a Microsoft account on windows. Telemetry is already a growing issue and the scope of telemetry data in closed source blobs doesn't have to be defined...


    So by definition it's not any more secure...

    Even if it was, the bigger question is why. Why does the application or web service need to know.

    If a child walks into a liquor store and steals alcohol, they get arrested. The burden of proof was never on the liquor store. Why is the burden of proof on the OS and not the parent or child.

    We don't need nanny software, that teaches kids to be better liars. We need stronger punishments for criminal actions, regardless of age and more importantly punishments for the parents for allowing it to occur. Babygating the entire OS for some one elses children that would never touch it, legally. Is a example of creating solutions for a problem YOU(parents/government) created.

    All of these age laws came from the social media bans. These of which only came into existence as a means of datacollection... Non-compliance, is actually compliance with how they are written, as they all place the burden of proof on you. No evidence == no crime. It's still a crime to lie about your age to age restricted content.

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  • [–] 55 points 7 months ago (11 children)
  • [–] 66 points 7 months ago (9 children)

    The self-important creator of Systemd has personally blocked that PR, if I'm hearing correctly, which would suggest he or his employer Microsoft is all in on it.

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  • [–] 29 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (6 children)

    It's an optional field in the userdb JSON object. It's not a policy engine, not an API for apps. We just define the field, so that it's standardized iff people want to store the date there, but it's entirely optional.

    "I'm not picking a side" and "this future proofs standardization" is of little comfort, that is seriously suspect. I ought to look to alternatives to SystemD(odge the issue failed).

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  • [–] 11 points 7 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 19 points 7 months ago

    Maybe this'll take the shine off that wunderkinder mess and people will finally be free to choose something more reliable. I love how RH pushed this beta software so hard and my reboots are now just shite -- unreliable and occasionally ridiculously delayed.

    I'll be glad to see the back of that metastatic shitball.

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  • [–] 9 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    DoB recording, and ID age verification, are two different things though.

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  • [+] -10 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    That's just systemd adding a birthdate field to their userdb. Doesn't require that it be filled out or accurate, and especially doesn't require it to be validated against a government database. I don't see it as fundamentally any different from adding a userdb field for favorite color, phone number, or blood type.

    Without 3rd party validation, I really don't see the privacy issue with an age field. Without verification, it is, at worst, one more byte available to hash into a unique identifier, but you can feed that field from /dev/random at every query and poison even that hypothetical.

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  • [–] 50 points 7 months ago

    Why the ever loving fuck does an init system even need a user database?

    Honest to God, if FIFA were giving out a World "Understanding UNIX" Prize, Poettering would be the inaugural, and only, winner. Never in the field of operating systems has one man driven so much enshittification through sheer force of cluelessness coupled with supreme arrogance. And in a world that Steve Ballmer still occupies, that's one hell of an accolade.

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  • [–] 14 points 7 months ago

    I imagine people behind this law are pretty interested in this small but powerful user base. I would just boldly assume that a lot of people responsible for independent software and privacy advocates are using Linux etc. So its a interesting user base for sure. But regulating open source software luckily is pretty much impossible and they wont give up their(our) privacy without a fight. Also, we will see how much the user base will grow when these regulations get tighter.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago* (1 child)

    Motorola* bending the knee to the mass surveillance corps and international governments comes to mind. We'll see how their deal with GrapheneOS goes now.

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