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My "personal" Lord and Savior. (lemmings.world)
submitted 8 months ago by to c/dankchristianmemes@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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[–] 3 points 8 months ago (7 children)

Pretty toxic group of comments up in here.

I'm not a Christian but I'm interested in it (not as a faith to join but as a phenomenon to understand). I'm not coming to this conversation with much baggage.

Looking at what people are citing about Paul and that link to a list of scriptures about relationship with Christ someone posted, I have to say I agree with OP the bible doesn't really talk about a personal relationship with Jesus being something modern worshippers should seek. The scripture that comes closest IMO is John 15

4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

Like if someone I love dies I might say that they live on in my heart (abide in me) but I probably wouldn't say that I still have a relationship with them.

It seems that the bible does not say: "speak to me in prayer and I'll reply in your heart so you can know me, and we'll have a relationship, and that's the most important thing". But I'm not a scholar

So I think the top half of the meme is fairly accurate, but I don't think the bottom half is adequately established. To me it seems that the idea of a personal relationship with a living god was propagated/emphasized by apologists/prosyletizers trying to differentiate Christianity™ from other religions. Bad actors probably do abuse the idea too though.

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  • [–] [S] 4 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    I would say that specific verse you are citing it's actually specifically calling people to community in the church. The vine is wrapped around the tree, tangled among the branches. If a branch grows to far away from the main tree that's holding the vine, that's when the branch is cut off.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    I think the branches are branches of the vine, I don't think there is a tree involved. Yeah the text is pretty clear it's talking about branches of the vine. Not tree branches.

    I think this is one of those faith vs works things. Like it's saying if you abide in Jesus you'll do good deeds.

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 child)

    No no...

    This is a ancient grape cultivation metaphor. They didn't have grape farms like we do today, with rows of grapevines strung on wires.

    They would grow bushes and let the vines grow up through the branches of the bush. Tthe bushes would hold the vines.

    In this metaphor the bush a the church and the branches are the people. (Or individual diocese or parishes depending on the interpretation.) But the bush is the Church. And the vine is Jesus abiding in the bush.

    Jesus is the vine. You ain't Jesus. You gotta be something else in the metaphor.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago

    Where is your position coming from? Like it seems like you're coming to this verse having already decided what it means.

    Your explanation about the tree/bush doesn't seem compatible with John 15:1-2. It doesn't make sense to prune the branches if they're just support structure, it won't make them bear more fruit. It could be a fruit tree/bush that's being used for support but then verse 5 doesn't make sense.

    I think the metaphor only makes sense if the branches are branches of the vine. Like the part labelled shoot or cane on this diagram and the "vine" means the central connective part of the plant, (ie the scion, arm or cordon on the above diagram). The vine (Jesus) nourishes the branches (Christians) and enables them to grow fruit (good acts).

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    is this not apologia?

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (1 child)

    I'm not an apologist if that's what you mean. I'm trying to gain an unbiased understanding of christianity and the origins of christian('s) beliefs. Not because I think christianity is true (I don't think christianity is true) but because I think it's an important force in society, and it's sometimes pretty reasonable and other times quite unhinged.

    I thought I'd share my thoughts because I'm relatively impartial to a debate about the primacy of a personal relationship with Jesus. Like it doesn't affect my identity at all if Paul says something that's contradicted by John, or totally incompatible with the teachings of a particular denominations.

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