Dbzero Governance Vote Post https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/63525728

Ahoy mateys!

A few of our users have recently pointed out that a lot of the pro-Zionist accounts on the fediverse nowadays seem to come from the feddit.org instance.

But whatever the excuse happens to be, they need to do better imo. Israel is currently the most violent, fascist and genocidal nation state in the Middle East (if you exclude the US military bases there). And yet feddit.org seems to regard the Palestinians fighting against Israel’s ongoing illegal occupation of their land as the real terrorists. ....

More context

Our instance already voted to ban pro-Zionist accounts (see https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/60585441 for reference) and the rule that was implemented is here: Golden Rule #8.

As further context, you can find relevant comments and discussion in this post by a banned feddit admin in MoG (that fact they chose to post in MoG is in itself quite telling), and this post about their defederation from quokk.au over anti-semitism allegations has recently become active again. ...

Note 2: If you think feddit.org deserves a full instance ban instead, or have alternative suggestions, then please leave your comments below. If enough people think that’s the better option, then we’ll do that instead.

In the end the Post had around 70% of support by dbzer0 users, who in the comments also called for defederation.

Here is a Link to Dbzer0 instances tab https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/instances where if you go to blocked instances you can see fedddit.org is now defederated

i dont think feddit has made a post now, but when they do i will add it

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[–] 55 points 8 months ago (73 children)

Its such an empty criticism when they federate with the ml instances.

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  • [–] 31 points 8 months ago* (25 children)

    I don't get it. Huh? I find sentiment on .ml extremely anti-Zionist.

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  • [–] 44 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    they didn't say it was hypocritical, just empty criticism. They are implying that ml instances are no less egregious about the types of bad content they allow, even if the content itself is different

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    They are implying that ml instances are no less egregious about the types of bad content they allow, even if the content itself is different

    They are wrong.

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  • [–] 24 points 8 months ago (18 children)

    They're pretty anti zionist. Only because Israel represents the west in all its brutality. They fully support the Russian invasion and genocide of Ukraine though, hence the hypocrisy.

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  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Truly a .ml stance haha. Do you think the people in Ukraine consider themselves Russian? Is that why they're fighting tooth and nail to avoid the Russian oppressors?

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    They fully support the Russian invasion

    wut? Even lemmygrad.ml doesn't - their support of the Russian Federation's invasion has always been critical, not full. Just like their support for Hamas is critical - it's extremely obvious that neither the capitalist-run RF nor the Islamist Hamas are groups they agree with at all.

    (I am not a campist, I'm simply explaining the campist concept of critical support)

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  • [+] -15 points 8 months ago* (10 children)

    They fully support the Russian invasion and genocide of Ukraine though, hence the hypocrisy.

    Did you know that inventing "genocides" based on perceived vibes and presenting them as equivalent to extremely real, well-documented, and universally agreed upon actual genocides is a form of genocide denial? Liberals such as yourself have been doing the work of fascists like this for a long time, this type of Holocaust denial is called "double genocide theory".

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  • [–] 17 points 8 months ago* (3 children)
  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    Is your name Lenin Weave after the way you dodge criticism?

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    You weren't criticizing me, I am just watching you dodge theirs.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago*

    I didn't dodge theirs, I directly addressed it. Their "criticism" is a form of genocide denial. They are fabricating "equivalent" atrocities to a real genocide. Similarly, your "neutral observer" trick here is a cheap way to pretend you're not taking a side in an argument so that you can dodge criticism of the side you are picking. See the irony?

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago (18 children)

    Lemmy.ml, Hexbear.net, and Lemmygrad.ml are all extremely anti-Zionist. Further, dbzer0 defederated from Lemmygrad.ml, and is only federated with Lemmy.ml and Hexbear.net. What are you trying to say?

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  • [–] -1 points 8 months ago (17 children)

    Nobody would ever accuse you people of defending Jews so it can't be that you are Zionists. Its about the simping for authoritarian regimes.

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  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    Idk where you got that those sites don't defend Jews. I feel very supported in those places, and the moderation on Hexbear at least takes antisemitism seriously(I can't say for the other two because I'm on there less often, but I'm yet to hear anything that would make me doubt that they defend their Jewish users as well)

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago (12 children)

    Communists absolutely defend Jewish peoples, Zionism is anti-semitic, especially anti-Yiddish. We also don't "simp for authoritarian regimes," we support socialist systems where the working classes hold the authority in society, rather than capitalists. None of this is "simping," I support worker-run structures because it's more equitable and democratic.

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  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago (11 children)

    we support socialist systems where the working classes hold the authority in society, rather than capitalists.

    I feel like, despite this being explained every time, people still think "dictatorship of the proletariat" is a bad thing because of the word "dictatorship"...

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago (6 children)

    Nope, not what I believe at all, and the fact that you have to invent my beliefs proves you can't actually argue against my real ones.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (4 children)

    Vanguards are both worker run and democratic. Vanguards are a subsection of the working classes, not a class of their own or outside class struggle, and are both democratic internally, as well as establishing systems of democracy externally. I'm really not sure where you're getting the idea that believing the working class needs to be organized for revolution means democracy is suddenly off the table.

    For example, in the USSR, first-hand accounts from Statesian journalist Anna Louise Strong in her book This Soviet World describe soviet elections and factory councils in action. Statesian Pat Sloan even wrote Soviet Democracy to describe in detail the system the soviets had built for curious Statesians to read about. Today we have Professor Roland Boer's Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance to reference for other socialist countries, with their own forms of democracy.

    So again, why lie about what I believe? I'm not responsible for you not knowing what a vanguard is or how socialist democracy works, but you feel very confident in telling me that I'm lying about it.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago* (2 children)

    "Intellectuals," or whatever term you wish to describe them as, are not a class, but a subsection of every class. Each class has its own "intellectuals," there are proletarian intellectuals and there are capitalist intellectuals. What the vanguard is, is a group of the working classes dedicated to revolution, professional revolutionaries. They are not "elites." Here's a diagram from Lady Izdihar, with the "organized core" being the vanguard:

    Classes are not simply any way you can categorize people, but specific social relations to production. Yes, steel workers are often members of vanguard parties. I organize with a communist party and have a full-time job. I'm not "acting" like you're mistaken, you are mistaken, you do not know how vanguards function nor how democracy works within vanguards and socialist countries with vanguard parties, otherwise you wouldn't be acting like vanguards are a "class" and that they aren't democratic.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago

    I'm talking about both before and after revolution, such as in this comment where I talk about democratic systems in post-revolutionary socialist states. This was 2 comments ago, either you forgot about it already or didn't read it, neither of which shows any real sense of care for truth on your part.

    Secondly, as I explained in my last comment, "intellectuals" are not a class. They belong to broader classes. Vanguards are indeed supposed to teach the rest of the working classes how to correctly struggle. Are you going to tell me that teachers in schools are an "elite class" too? This is just anti-intellectualism. Not everyone is going to be dedicated to studying revolutionary theory and history, not everyone is going to be a labor organizer, but that doesn't mean we can't have people dedicated to doing so.

    Classes are social relations to production. The vanguard party and non-vanguard working class both have the same ownership over the means of production, just like your manager at whatever job you have likely isn't an owner either.

    Where are you getting all of these confused ideas about class, socialist democracy, and vanguards from? It certainly isn't from Marx, Engels, Lenin, etc, nor is it from historical documentation.

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  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago

    Yep, or they realize it means democratic control by the proletariat, dictatorship against capitalists and fascists, as Marx intended, but then think socialist countries all misunderstood Marx and established capitalist-style dictatorships of the few. This is a deeply chauvanist attitude though, that assumes people in socialist countries too stupid to understand basic Marxist concepts (despite having higher functional literacy rates than the US Empire).

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  • [+] 4 points 8 months ago (19 children)
  • [–] 14 points 8 months ago (13 children)

    “People supporting “Israel”, the Zionist entity enacting genocide on Palestinians, are identical to “People supporting “Russia”, the Fascist entity enacting genocide on Ukranians

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  • [–] 21 points 8 months ago (9 children)

    Russia is, in fact, enacting genocide in Ukraine.

    What Russia is doing:

    Tens of thousands of children are being abducted, stripped of their identity, and taught to hate their homeland
    https://thewalrus.ca/ukrainian-children/

    Definition of Genocide:

    Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
    https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition

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  • [–] 18 points 8 months ago* (3 children)

    The ICC has an arrest warrant on Putin for these abductions.

    Putin has used a ukaz/presidential decree to streamline the process of Ukrainian children being made Russian.

    Here's your Independent Journalistic Report:

    “It happens, for example, that they go with their parents from the occupied territories through Russia to some third countries. Russians can detain parents, arrest, put them in prison, just take their child to their boarding school. Like, go where you wanted, but your child will stay with us. There are cases when Russians enter a house somewhere in the occupied territory, the child tells them that he lives with his mother, who just went to the store or for water, but they take this child, actually kidnap him, and he finds himself in Russia. I am not talking about the so-called evacuation of children's boarding institutions from the occupied territories to Russia - this is a separate pain, "says Daria Kasyanova.

    But sure, keep telling the world it's only Ukrainian propaganda. I'm ending this conversation here to log off, I've got better things to do than deal with a debatebro hexbear user trying to excuse genocide.

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  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago* (1 child)

    So the person who believes Soviet documentation, will turn around and not believe Ukrainian documentation. How convenient this makes your genocide denial.

    You even mention the site showing where you can browse the tens of thousands of missing Ukrainian children, and see the ones who have been returned. You can go find testimonials from those returned children, but still you believe Russian war time propaganda over that.

    The utter arrogance and hate to call these unjustified claims when they are backed up by evidence is astounding, but one should expect no less from someone so ideologically driven to manipulate and distort to fit their narrative.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    "The source for the crime is, unsurprisingly, the victim, the criminal is denying any wrongdoing" hmmm

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  • [–] -4 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    Nice try but the USSR sided with the Nazis remember. They dont get any credit.

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago

    The communists spent the decade prior to World War II trying to form an anti-Nazi coalition force, such as the Anglo-French-Soviet Alliance which was pitched by the communists and rejected by the British and French. The communists hated the Nazis from the beginning, as the Nazi party rose to prominence by killing communists and labor organizers, cemented bourgeois rule, and was violently racist and imperialist, while the communists opposed all of that.

    When the many talks of alliances with the west all fell short, the Soviets reluctantly agreed to sign a non-agression pact, in order to delay the coming war that everyone knew was happening soon. Throughout the last decade, Britain, France, and other western countries had formed pacts with Nazi Germany, such as the Four-Power Pact, the German-French-Non-Agression Pact, and more. Molotov-Ribbentrop was unique among the non-agression pacts with Nazi Germany in that it was right on the eve of war, and was the first between the USSR and Nazi Germany. It was a last resort, when the west was content from the beginning with working alongside Hitler.

    Harry Truman, in 1941 in front of the Senate, stated:

    If we see that Germany is winning we ought to help Russia, and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible, although I don’t want to see Hitler victorious under any circumstances.

    Not only that, but it was the Soviet Union that was responsible for 4/5ths of total Nazi deaths, and winning the war against the Nazis. The Soviet Union did not agree to invade Poland with the Nazis, it was about spheres of influence and red lines the Nazis should not cross in Poland. When the USSR went into Poland, it stayed mostly to areas Poland had invaded and annexed a few decades prior. Should the Soviets have let Poland get entirely taken over by the Nazis, standing idle? The West made it clear that they were never going to help anyone against the Nazis until it was their turn to be targeted.

    The communists were responsible for 80% of the total Nazi casualties. The communists beat the Nazis.

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