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Founding Pedos (lemmy.ml)
submitted 9 months ago by to c/memes@lemmy.ml
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[–] 11 points 9 months ago (9 children)

Respectfully, your position doesn't make sense. Liberalism brought us here. Liberalism was built on top of the slave trade, of colonialism, of plunder. This system produces people like Epstein and Trump.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (6 children)

    With all due respect, that's sounds like leaps of logic, like saying he scientific theory leads directly to and only to nuclear warfare.

    Does classical liberalism only lead to slave trade/colonialism?

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  • [–] 8 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    Do you know how many enlightenment figures were wildly racist, how many of them profited from slavery while pretending to stand for freedom? Scientific racism is a direct evolution from this.

    As for whether liberalism now would lead to more of the same, of course it would, it has no built-in method for people to not be exploited, to discourage greed, to stop genocide, etc. How would you suggest we prevent any and all of this within liberalism?

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  • [–] -1 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    I've been thinking for a long time that any large-scale organization will lead to greed, corruption, injustice, et al. It's only since I've been reading about ML that I learned I lean anarchist. Vanguard parties sound like a bad idea to me.

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  • [+] 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (3 children)
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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

    My observations and intuition so far is that, the larger the organization, the more that its injustices outweigh its benefits. Power corrupts, and people always have a way of justifying their own actions to themselves, no matter how unjust or "evil" they may be. As a population, I'm not confident in any one person, or any one small party, to wield the broad authority that a large government has.

    I dunno. The more introspective I get the more I think of Oceania in 1984. Ingsoc is purported to be socialist but it's still highly stratified, and the higher classes wield their power in the most violent and dehumanizing way possible. I fear that that's the result of not just socialist organizations, but any organization that becomes large enough.

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  • [+] 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)
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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    Sure, I'll cop to that level of idealism. I think the "human condition" is a real thing we've inherited from our evolutionary forebears, and we're constantly fighting against it. Heck, my main complaint started out as seeing Lemmy MLs as tribalistic to their own detriment. Even if it isn't truly universal, I don't think any form of political organization can permanently overcome that.

    Also, yeah, I know that fiction doesn't describe reality, just the author's perspective of reality (learned that from Ayn Rand, 🤣 ). Didn't know that Orwell was anti-semitic (nightmare ick), but the message I took from 1984 was anti-establishment and anti-authoritarian, not necessarily anti-communist. I was taught that the "soc" in Ingsoc was a lie, just as in the Ministry of Truth produced lies and the Ministry of Love produced cruelty. Anyway.

    I also want to reference some things I've heard about the USSR and the PRC, but I feel the canned response is that it's all Western propaganda, and I don't see a productive outcome of that line of conversation. I have some observations after reading Three Body Problem and my partner's fandom for MXTX's light novels, but that's very anecdotal.

    At any rate, I got more of the insight I wanted about Lemmy MLs, and you as always give me a lot to think about, Cowbee <3 I always appreciate your time and patience.

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  • [–] -3 points 9 months ago* (1 child)

    Are we talking about liberalism or neoliberalism? My understanding is that liberalism is, ostensibly, grounded in enlightenment ideals.

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  • [+] 8 points 9 months ago (1 child)
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  • [–] -3 points 9 months ago

    That is effectively the case in history, and I don’t think OP is denying that, but the philosophical basis is more about individual human rights. I think OP is asking how Americans feel about how far from those ideals we have strayed, which is completely off the fucking map. For my part, I question the cost to society that prioritizing individual liberties like property rights has had, but I don’t think that capitalism itself is inextricably linked to “classical liberalism”, and Americans tend to insist that it is. It’s a confusion born out of ignorance and propaganda.

    The “Founding Fathers” were shit people, but the constitution as an evolution of enlightenment ideals is a pretty sound document, we just haven’t lived up to the doctrine. The same could be said about communism as practiced by authoritarian regimes.

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