Saapas comments on West seeking to ‘destroy’ Iran through ‘color revolution’ – Moscow

West seeking to ‘destroy’ Iran through ‘color revolution’ – Moscow (swentr.site)

submitted 10 months ago by jankforlife@lemmy.ml to c/worldnews@lemmy.ml

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[+] Saapas@piefed.zip -13 points 9 months ago (35 children)

I don't imagine the system following this would be worse ideologically to a socialist than a theocracy. Surprised more aren't happy about the unrest as an opportunity for socialists. Not sure why the hesitancy. Can't be any love for their current theocratic system.

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[–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 16 points 9 months ago (34 children)

Iran has been a target of US imperialism for decades, and the US has overthrown their government before and installed a US puppet, just like they'd like to do now. It was even one of the 7 wars in 5 years countried outlined by the Bush administration.

Its not your or my place to choose what form of government they have, that's for the Iranian people to decide. Your place is to oppose the US bombing civilians and sanctioning the country.

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[+] Saapas@piefed.zip -11 points 9 months ago (33 children)

I'm all for Iranian people plotting their own course. I think if they throw out the current system then that's great. I'm just surprised by the hesitancy over that from ml spaces.

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[–] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 14 points 9 months ago (32 children)

I'm all for Iranian people plotting their own course

The problem is that the US/Israel isn't and will do everything they can to plot their own course instead

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[+] Saapas@piefed.zip -9 points 9 months ago (31 children)

I'm sure USA and Israel will be happy to see the current system fall but it's not like that's going to make me hesitant to cheer if the Iranian people decide to overthrow it

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[–] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 12 points 9 months ago (30 children)

They aren't simply 'happy to see' like some kind of observer, they are actively co-opting genuine protests for their own ends, at the expense of the Iranian people.

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[+] Saapas@piefed.zip -7 points 9 months ago (29 children)

Imperial Germany sent Lenin back to Russia to destabilize it. Of course enemies of the current leadership/system are going to try and take advantage of the situation, happens probably every time there's protests or revolution or whatever. If the people want to take down the current leadership or system then isn't that still something to be cheered for?

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[–] gorikan@lemmy.world 11 points 9 months ago* (28 children)

This is so laughably bad. Whos the next lenin? Is he currently working for cia or mossad? Which prominent socialist circles does he come from?

Now dont get me wrong, north korean style iran i wouldnt mind, or say stalin like, most importantly they need self defense, nuclear weapons. Before that even if by divine action a socialist became the president after the us and israel backed coup(seriously i cant imagine how other than descending from heavens), he woyld be swiftly replaced. Socialism isnt tolerated.

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[–] Saapas@piefed.zip -4 points 9 months ago (27 children)

I wasn't saying there was a Lenin here, just that outsiders always try to influence these things. Doesn't mean you should support the current regime imo, it being a theocracy and all.

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[–] gorikan@lemmy.world 6 points 9 months ago* (26 children)

Sure, we can expect socialism like they have in syria now. No one is supporting the current regime for the sake of it. Thats a strawman.

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[–] Saapas@piefed.zip -3 points 9 months ago (25 children)

It just feels very defeatist and non-committal, aking to supporting the status quo since the protests can't promise socialism. I just find the mindset odd.

I've probbaly misunderstood the reasoning but nobody has really explained it either, just made quips about how these protests are run by USA or something.

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[–] gorikan@lemmy.world 3 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (24 children)

Hey whats wrong with syrian socialism? And so what if mossad is involved as has been extensively reported and they even said it on their x account, that doesnt mean that they dont want the best socialism for iran. But to be clear, in magic land absolutely, then the whole world would be certainly not capitalist.

its interesting how many people are willing to disregard the israeli hand in this. You may have forgotten, but not so long ago iran almist had nuclear wmds, according to netanyahu, now do you remember last time what that looked like, in iraq? Yeah the israelies we willingly trying to make that happen to iran, and now they so much care for iranian people of course. They even held a protest, not against the genocide mind you, but against the cruel gvmt of iran.

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[–] Saapas@piefed.zip -1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (23 children)

I think you totally misunderstood. I'm saying of course Israel and USA, enemies of Iran's current leadership are going to help the protests and that in itself imo shouldn't be a reason to dismiss those protesting and defend the status quo. If the people want to take down the conservative government or the theocratic system then I'm all for it, it doesn't really matter imo who supports them in that effort. To me that doesn't taint the action of people taking down the system

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[–] gorikan@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (22 children)

Indeed, and thats a big if, given that the progovernment protests also against foreign interference were by orders of magnitude larger. Look its impossible to pretend to care for iranians, if you trust us and israel in their intentions. Thats simmilar to say if nazis helped russians overthrow their soviet gvmt. Now i wonder did some russian disident make such a claim?

And again noone is defending the gvmt for the sake of it. What the point is, that foreign backed coup, like the one in syria, would give horrendous results, and it would help far worse governments like the israels genociders. Also in no way would this get iran closer to good defense. After they get nukes, then they will be safe.

But dont get me wrong, under shah absolutely i would have supported the revolutionary gvmt. They are at least iranian, not foreign owned. And they were indeed revolutionary.

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[–] Saapas@piefed.zip 0 points 9 months ago (21 children)

Who out there is trusting the US and Israel? I'm just saying them being on one side doesn't mean the other side is the right one. If Iranians want to take down their theocratic conservative government I'm all for it, no matter who decided to support it.

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[–] gorikan@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (20 children)

because replacing an internal semi dictatorial gvmt with foreign engineered collapse doesnt produce freedom, it produces Iraq, Syria, libya etc

its simmilar to argument that nazis offered russians a chance against stalin. technically true, catastrophically immoral, and lethal in practice

I agree if we ignore context then no issue. i mean you respond to none of my points, this is like talking at a wall. Reread my previous comment and respond to what i actually wrote. For example whats wrong with th syriam socialism? Why dont you appreciate that gvmt? Didnt syrians want it?

also your claim rests on some iranian people, yet the progvmt demonstrations were far larger. Can you explain this issue?

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[–] Saapas@piefed.zip 1 point 9 months ago* (19 children)

Foreign engineered

That sounds very much like the line the government is using to dismiss the protests. I'm not sure it is true, consider how real the grievances the people have are.

Also you constantly making up positions I have and attacking those, then being surprised that I ignore them. If you don't want to engage with what I'm saying and instead engage with something else, then what's the point of me replying to that?

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[–] gorikan@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago (18 children)

which of my points did you react to? I cant see single one, are you unable or unwilling? Whats wrong with syrian socialism?

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[–] Saapas@piefed.zip 1 point 9 months ago (17 children)

I quoted the part

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[–] gorikan@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago* (16 children)

Ok this isnt a serious debate, ive explained nemerous times the thing you 'quoted' also this isnt a quote, this is not even a phrase

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[–] Saapas@piefed.zip 1 point 9 months ago (15 children)

I had no idea you were trying to do a serious debate. You wrote so much weird irrelevant stuff that had nothing to do with what I had said that I just thought you wanted to just argue

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[–] gorikan@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago* (14 children)

lol, you compared mossad to lenin, bruv what position you have to say whats a weird claim

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[–] Saapas@piefed.zip 1 point 9 months ago (13 children)

No I didn't. You could quote the part here where you think I sair that and you'd notice for yourself. This is exactly why I didn't think you were trying to be serious.

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[–] gorikan@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago (12 children)

Yes you said that foreign infiltration brought people like lenin. Thats how this began, when you tried to use this to not see an issue with us and mossad infiltration.

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[–] Saapas@piefed.zip 1 point 9 months ago (11 children)

You're already changing what you claimed I said. Like you seem to have realized, I said that all revolutions have foreign influence and as example imperial Germany sent Lenin home to destabilize Russia. The point being that do you really condemn the possible toppling of their regime because foreign countries are involved, since even Russian revolution had some very direct foreign involvement.

It would be so much easier if you'd just told me you didn't understand what I was saying and asked me to explained it...

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[–] gorikan@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago (10 children)

Tell me when you address one of my points.

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[–] Saapas@piefed.zip 1 point 9 months ago (9 children)

Now you just silently dropped your claim about what I said. And you were trying to have a serious debate in your mind. See why I didn't take you seriously?

If you genuinely want a second attempt at a serious debate, you might want to restate some of your more relevant points with actual quotes from me in parts where you are claiming I was arguing for a thing. Otherwise there's no much point since your prior stuff has been just one big misunderstanding of what I've actually said.

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[–] gorikan@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago (8 children)

So not yet?

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[–] Saapas@piefed.zip 1 point 9 months ago* (7 children)

If you just want the last word without actually trying to actually debate anything, I can give you that. I don't mind.

But like said, I just genuinely didn't see any points that actually addressed what I said or were relevant. But if you rephrased or just repeated them in proper context we could get into it, if you want to.

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[–] gorikan@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago (6 children)

Ah sorry, i was asking whats wrong with syrian socialism.

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[–] Saapas@piefed.zip 1 point 9 months ago (5 children)

What about Syrian socialism? I don't understand what you mean

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[–] gorikan@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago (4 children)

Well the governmemt there war overthrown with israeli and us support. So the syrian people are finally free no? I dont know, it doesnt seem socialist or even better for that matter to me.

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[–] Saapas@piefed.zip 1 point 9 months ago (3 children)

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. That people shouldn't try to overthrow their current government if that overthrow doesn't guarantee socialism?

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[–] gorikan@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago (2 children)

No it just seems to me that you dont support the syrian govenment. Did you even support the previous overthrow?

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[–] Saapas@piefed.zip 1 point 9 months ago* (1 child)

I'm neutral on the current Syrian government. Haven't seen much from them so far tbh. If that was the people's will then I support the people's will. Do you mean with the previous overthrow the one that overthrew the Shah?

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[–] gorikan@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago*

the overthrow in syria in my view didnt install a democratic or popular socialist, or in fact a democratic popular leader per say. President is a former islamist militia commander. Meanwhile while the state deals with secrarian violence between alawites christians kurds druze, israel has expanded settlements in golan and does now regular strikes even further into syrian territory. framing potential iran or syria as socialist is just marketing, it shows no connection to either of the situations there. thats why i asked. If this is the sort of freedom you are "neutral" on then we disagree. in syria the popularity cannot even be argued on the same grounds because it wasnt toppled through uprising.

in iran the protests were followed by orders larger pro gvmt anti foreign influence ones. I can give source its on craddle for example. Also notice how the revolution against shah is different, point me to significant backing of it by foreign power. That was grassroots, this one has mossad and cia all over it

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