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But birds in a giant blender is a more appealing headline (slrpnk.net)
submitted 10 months ago by to c/justpost@lemmy.world
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[โ€“] 7 points 10 months ago (12 children)

The reason they are the same group is that feral cats result from domestic cats, if there were not domestic cats, we would not have feral cats. They are not wild, native cats.

There would be no reason to split it, the populations are linked. It's better if people understand the issue with invasive species, even if we love the invasive and feel like we personally treat them responsibly.

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  • [โ€“] 3 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    And domestic cats are a result of humans, so you could just lump all of that under humans, but that would be less useful. Because the point of these days visualisations is to present the data usefully.

    Separating them would show people that if you want to combat the problem it's better to support trap, neuter, release programs, than to say not adopt a domestic cat.

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 10 months ago (2 children)

    Who's saying don't adopt cats. You should totally adopt cats, cats are amazing pets, adopting from a shelter is the best place to get one. Spay neuter programs are the best way to control feral populations since there is no way to eradicate feral cats while allowing pet populations. Pet populations will ensure feral cats remain endemic forever.

    That doesn't stop that the entire issue of feral cats and pet cats are linked, and also linked to bird predation. The US as a society has chosen pet cats over wild birds. Some other nations handle by culling, like Australia, or new Zealand now.

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  • [โ€“] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    That's my point, we should adopt cats, which is why presenting data as "cats bad" is not useful or productive. Separating the data to show it's feral cats that's are the real issue, is more useful because it lets us push the point that we need to deal with stray cats, which is what's important.

    since there is no way to eradicate feral cats while allowing pet populations. Pet populations will ensure feral cats remain endemic forever.

    Exactly, so the choice is either get rid of pets, or deal with feral cats. So we should present the data in a way that shows pets aren't the real problem.

    Yes, they are linked, but again, that's not the point, pet cats are linked to humans, but a graph that just lumps all that data in together isn't useful. The point of data visualisation is to present the data usefully.

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  • [โ€“] 0 points 10 months ago

    Is the data presenting as cats are bad? I see the data is pointing out how many bird deaths in the US are caused by different things. I'm pretty sure it's about turbines because no one cares how many birds cats kill.

    https://www.statista.com/chart/15195/wind-turbines-are-not-killing-fields-for-birds/

    Domestic cats are bad for wild bird populations, unequivocally, whether they are pets or feral. Like I totally get what you are saying though, and you're right, I'm pretty sure one of those studies points out feral cats kill birds at a rate of 3 to1 compared to pets. But those feral populations don't exist without the domestic pets which are uncontrolled beyond a county level in most places. At best spay/neuter programs reduce the number of unhealthy animals, but the US has kinda chosen to allow the nearly uncontrolled population of feral cats (which result entirely from the pet industry) to exist and kill birds.

    I mean when when we try to control them we are more trying to reduce the amount of nuisance feral cats represent, they aren't like feral dogs, which the US treats very aggressively in most cases. Feral spay/neuter programs understand that the cats will always exist where there's food resources, so keeping those populations under control and healthier is the main purpose. They don't do the forests and shit, and they don't care how many birds those cats kill.

    You can realize your indoor only cats are not necessarily killing any birds, so the birds your cats kill is 0. Responsibly owning indoor pets is the best way to do it, but again, we don't care in the US how many birds cats kill, it's a passing figure to us. Not like New Zealand where they are very protective of their wild birds.

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  • [โ€“] 3 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    I think you are equivocating two distinct uses of the term domestic. A domestic cat is a cat that is also a pet, and a domestic species is a species that is suited to life with humans. All feral cats are domestic by the second definition but not the first. If you take the second definition, then you are correct but only trivially. If you take the first definition, then you are historically incorrect. Either way, I don't think you have a very strong point.

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  • [โ€“] 2 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    We, humanity, domesticated wild cats into pets and spread the throughout the world. "Feral" cats only exist as a result of "Domestic" cats.

    That is not something you can equivocate, there is no separation, they are the same species, the feral population would not exist without the domesticated versions, like feral hogs.

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  • [โ€“] 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (5 children)

    That's not true. Cats domesticated themselves.

    domesticated wild cats into pets

    That's not what domestication means.

    If your point is that all feral cats are members of a domesticated species, then you are correct only by definition. If your point is that all feral cats come from pet cats, then you are factually incorrect.

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 10 months ago (4 children)

    The relationship between cats and humans is the exact defenition of domestication. All feral cats come from humans moving non native cat species to areas around the world, cats are African. The words feral and domestic are linked. And yes, to answer your last question all feral cats are a result of domestic cats, the term feral only exists in relation to term. Feel free to hit me with sources on this. If they aren't feral they are wild.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_cat

    I've got another resource on domestication to.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_cat

    I'm not the one twisting language here.

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  • [โ€“] 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (3 children)

    I'm not the one twisting language here.

    Let's try not to take things personally here. I'm not twisting words, and I'm not claiming that you are either. I'm pretty confident the equivocation is an honest mistake.

    We don't disagree on the definition of a domesticated species here. We don't disagree about whether cats are domesticated or not. The original comment by gmtom said, "graph would be better if feral cats were separated from pet cats. As the vast majority of predation comes from those feral cats." Note that the categories we are discussing here are feral cats and pet cats, not feral cats and domestic cats.

    You respond by saying, "The reason they are the same group is that feral cats result from domestic cats, if there were not domestic cats, we would not have feral cats. They are not wild, native cats." The categories here have changed to feral cats and domestic cats when the original comment was about feral cats and pet cats.

    You can conclude from this line of reasoning that separating the graph into the categories of feral cats and domesticated cats is inappropriate, but you cannot use this line of reasoning to conclude that it is inappropriate to separate the graph into the categories of feral cats and pet cats.

    Using this argument to suggest that it is inappropriate to separate the graph into the categories of feral cats and pet cats is to equivocate two distinct usages of the term domestic. One usage means "a member of a domesticated species" and the other usage means "pet" or something like "non-feral domesticated." These are clearly distinct usages. In one case, the categories overlap, while they are mutually exclusive in the other.

    Feel free to hit me with sources on this. If they aren't feral they are wild.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_cat

    I've got another resource on domestication to.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_cat

    We don't disagree on the facts here, so no number of sources could resolve this discussion one way or another.

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  • [โ€“] 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

    I see what you're saying, I'm using domestic and pet interchangeably. That's because pets are domestic animals, the domestic cat is named that because it was domesticated. These words can all be used at the same time and are. Pets, domesticated cats, whose species common name is the domestic cat, are responsible for all feral populations in the US. There is no source for feral cats beyond the introduction of them by people. Which occurred through both pets and working animals in farms, shipping, etc.

    I'm arguing with the other user that the graph isn't actually saying anything about cats, it's talking about windmills and the fact that pet domestic cats are responsible for 1/3rd of the bird killings on that graph is meaningless because the feral population does not exist without the domestic pet population of domestic cats.

    The whole point of the graph is pointing out that no one gives a shit about how many birds cats kill, so why are we arguing about windmills using birds.

    I'm not sure if we still disagree.

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  • [โ€“] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Yes, sorry. I suppose I could have been more precise from the get-go. That's what I get for using social media at work. I understand the desire to see the data broken down further, but at the same time, it does make sense to me to keep pet cats and feral cats lumped together in the context of analyzing bird deaths associated with humans. I think we're in complete agreement with that sorted out.

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