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[–] 131 points 1 year ago (57 children)

So do I understand correctly that on this globe you can only be against genocide of the Palestinians if you live in an authoritarian country like China, Iran, Russia, etc.?

Obviously in those countries you can't be against their own genocides like the Uhigers, Ukrainians, etc. But somehow when it comes to Israel the rest of the world seems to not dare being against genocide?

Is is because the US is so powerful that they fear reprecusions? Or why is that?

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  • [+] 65 points 1 year ago (5 children)
  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Fair.

    I'm hopeful that it can't get exponentially worse forever.

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  • [–] 28 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    It can. We're living in what our children will call the "good old days" right now.

    Survival alone will be brutal next decade. Millions upon millions of climate/war refugees vs the thousands of today.

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  • [–] 37 points 1 year ago* (5 children)

    Genocide doesnt require direct killing. Forced sterilization and destruction of cultural identity is also genocide.

    From Wikipedia:

    "the destruction of a nation or of an ethnic group" by means such as "the disintegration of [its] political and social institutions, of [its] culture, language, national feelings, religion, and [its] economic existence".

    And there is plenty of documented proof of that. To deny that is to deny your own ability to see, read and think.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    To deny that is to deny your own ability to see, read and think.

    So you admit to not being able to do any of those three?

    Here have fun reading ~400 sources ranging from pre 2000 to present day.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China#References

    Literally thousands of news organizations from left to right, old to new, small to large has reported on this. There are uncountable numbers of reports and pieces of evidence from texts to pictures to audio and video recordings to witness reports.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    What do you mean by prove? This person just copy and pasted the definition.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    Watched an interesting take from one of the Chinese politician or whatever they are called there.

    He was blaming the US imperial forces causing turmoil in Afghanistan which leaked into the Chinese side and fumed some of the locals now wanting to split from China and wanting their own nation. Pollie said their leader is an american citizen. So I guess china has been detaining these people? Who knows.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    Other than Spain and Ireland, which ones?

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Brazil, Colombia, league of Arab counties, Norway, Sweden. Even Germany and France have expressed concern. The EU as whole is flagging that free trade agreements may be annulled due to war crimes.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (1 child)
  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    Yes. Germany have been most supportive of Israel, as they misguidedly want to protect Jews, rather than people from genocide, to overcompensate for past actions. However, even there, the tide has turned and some politicians are making statements against Israel and her actions.

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  • [–] [S] 6 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    league of Arab counties

    Which Arab countries? Every single one has been quiet, and some have been actively aiding the genocide.

    Even Germany and France have expressed concern

    To what end? Germany's been militant in its support, and France shrank away from actively censuring the genocidaires every chance they got.

    The EU as whole is flagging that free trade agreements may be annulled due to war crimes.

    They've been doing that dance for over a year. What has come of it?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    The league of Arab nations. I think it is a body representing 50ish Islamic nations.

    German politicians have until recently been saying that Israel is justified. They are now making statements that Israel has overstepped the line. Most people already see that. However, the point is about whether criticism of Israel is allowed. It is, both by people and politicians. There are also instances of EU(Irish) citizens being deported due to Palestine support. I purposely was pointing to mistakes most staunch supporter, to show that their support is diminishing.

    Yes, there has been dancing since the October attack. Exactly my point. Criticism is not banned. Support for Israel is aiding genocide at this point. It seems the countries who support Israel most are those that sell them military supplies.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    the point is about whether criticism of Israel is allowed. It is, both by people and politicians.

    May I remind you that we're discussing this on a post about how an Australian woman in Australia was viciously beaten by state actors (cops) for engaging in criticism of Israel.

    There are also instances of EU(Irish) citizens being deported due to Palestine support.

    Again, if someone's being deported for criticizing Israel, I don't think that really qualifies as "criticism is allowed". In theory, I'm sure it is. In practice is a very different beast.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    I wasn't concentrating specifically on Aus either, just pointing out that a prominent member of "the west" is brutally attempting to silence dissent, which they are. Yes, I am trying to say that criticism of Israel isn't looked upon kindly in Australia -- or in France, or in Germany, or in Italy, or in the Netherlands -- and there's no dearth of police brutality to be had in the US and Canada either.

    As for arresting Netanyahu, Belgium and Hungary have straight up said they'll be doing no such thing, and Greece was more than happy to welcome him despite there being an ICC arrest warrant out for him. Germany's obviously not going to arrest him, France has done everything possible to be as lily-livered and non-committal about it as possible while backtracking on Palestinian recognition.

    So no, it hasn't "been permitted" indefinitely. The tide is turning amongst the people, but governments are still being as heavy-handed and militaristic as possible to shield their genocidaire buddies and the military contracts they bring.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Well, yes it has. Australia, and a person being assaulted, is the data point you were using to say dissent was not allowed. There have been weekly peaceful protests in Sydney, with police keeping it safe. ACAB may be true but there is varying degrees and Australian police are not the same as american. This was likely a case of police violence towards protest, irrespective of ideology.

    All those different countries have people, as you say, with differing views. You're equating the act of government as being their belief and they have all had rallies and protests. Dissent is not banned by any means. The number of people opposed to genocide or aware of the seriousness of genocide is growing. That is changing the politics.

    You should be aware that in Sydney, there have also been antisemitic attacks on child care centres, schools, businesses and there have also been false flag terrorist attacks against Jews too. So, the situation in Australia is nowhere near as clear cut as you are presenting.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (20 children)

    My biggest issue is Americans. Half of Americans support genocide, the other half want to moralize and lead the charge against it, which just comes off as hypocrisy considering i didn’t even get so much as an apology for all the bombings and invasions my country took by Americans. Now Americans are moralizing to my brown indigenous ass about colonialism and genocide and acting like once again Americans should lead this movement, which only cheapens it. Americans need to get in the back of the line and shut the fuck up. Support but leave your moralizing at home, and “I wasn't personally the one who bombed you” is not an excuse for Israelis so it’s not one for Americans either. You guys fucked half the world and now you wanna move on and leave it in the past so you don’t have to take collective responsibility

    Edit: getting downvoted by Americans who don’t like non whites calling them out for their bullshit. Biggest terrorist nation on earth

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago (16 children)

    I mean, I def get what you’re saying. I do. But do you really have anti-genocide Americans saying something about “Americans should lead this movement?” Because that’s an insane take I can’t imagine you’ve really run into in the wild.

    The US is the worst perpetrator of colonialist violence, no doubt.

    “I wasn’t personally the one who bombed you” is not an excuse for Israelis so it’s not one for Americans either. You guys fucked half the world and now you want to move on and leave it in the past so you don’t have to take collective responsibility.

    What if I flipped this and said this is the exact rationale Israel is using against the population of Palestine? The population who’s been too young to have anything to do with anything Hamas has done, but they’re getting punished for it?

    My point isn’t that the US has no blame. I don’t think you can actually find a US leftist who believes that. And if any US leftist is throwing blame all over the world without recognizing the history of the US? I mean, they’re beyond stupid.

    My point is…why subdivide us further? The left is being repressed all over the world while fascism takes root once again. And your biggest gripe is…people who were born into a place? We should not be finding ways to take the high road over each other. Because there is a global rise of fascism while an active genocide takes place. And you’re here—if I can borrow a phrase—moralizing. To a T. You are claiming your biggest problem is with other people who agree with you, but who aren’t as pure of heart as you? You’re the real anti genocide crusader because ____?

    Why. Why are we constantly using our morals and ideologies as cudgels against other people who would agree with us if we weren’t actively trying to find differences between us? We, the global working class should not be doing the work of the ruling class. And finding reasons to hate and belittle other working class people for generalized reasons beyond their control is very much doing the work for them.

    So please stop. We have the most powerful tool of communication and global community at our fingertips and we’re using it to further divisions among the working class. When we could so easily harness it and mobilize a general strike that would cripple the ruling class in a matter of days. But this kind of moralizing you’re doing that is so common online (because corporations made social media and gave us an avenue to wear our ideas like patches, crippling three entire generations because we can’t see past that way of thinking) is the only thing stopping us.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    Are you conflating the Democratic Party with the “American left?” That would be exactly where your problem lies.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    lol what?

    I will say there is a problem worldwide, thanks to the level of discourse on social media, with people having much more shallow understanding and much more “punchy” takes without any shred of nuance (like your take). That’s not an “American left” problem. The death of nuance has eroded the entire level of discourse regardless of ideology. Worldwide. It’s why a take such as yours is even debated and not thrown right away as a trash, shallow, meaningless take.

    You can ignore 95% of what I said and refuse to engage on any of those points while continuing to repeat a weak, nuance-free take with zero basis in anything anyone else can agree is happening outside of someone misunderstanding

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  • You complain about the level Of discourse on social media. I blame the American bombs you guys dropped on my people, how you treated us and continue to treat us like subhuman enemies. How you blame your ills on my people, who were here first by the way. And now after going through all that, I see young Americans moralizing, and preaching to my indigenous ass about privilege and colonialism. Shut the fuck up and fix your country.

    You all benefited from your empires crimes, you all share the responsibility if not the blame.

    I don’t like to get ugly online, but Americans are the exception, y’all need to shut the fuck up about what other countries are up to and fix your shit

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (6 children)
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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I see how fucked up the US is just fine, I'm talking about your inane assertion that the "anti democrat left" is in any way at fault, or even close to as bad as our conservatives. The US has no leftist party, actual leftists have no power and no control over anything. You're clearly just another liberal intent on deflecting blame and avoiding responsibility for the failures of your ideology.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Like I said, delusional nonsense from a liberal desperate to deflect blame

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    You're blaming everyone except one of the two US political parties who have actual power for the state of the US, sorry if being correctly identified feels bad pal maybe try being less obvious next time

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    The American left this past election went insane

    Oh Jesus, yes.

    Sending Obama to black communities to call impoverished young men misogynistic and sending Bill Clinton up north to lecture angry Palestinian Americans was astonishing in the most tone-deaf and infuriating way.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    And 99% of us vote for it every two years, because both ruling parties are warmongers.

    But what gets me the most is that half of voters' opinions on war change depending on who's in power. The folks who are so anti-war right now would fully support it if Harris were in office, and that changing of opinions based on political convenience and nothing else just infuriates me. They still defend Obama's bloodied hands even though he was bombing seven different countries while in office. (That we know of)

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Agreed. Plus those are rookie numbers. Mao killed at least 40 million people on accident. Imagine what he could do if he put effort in.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    Please give me the real numbers, comrade.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Most estimates range from 15-30 million. A smaller proportion of the population than the Irish potato famine which was caused by British mismanagement but I don't hear that talked about as a reason why capitalism is terrible much.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

    15-30 million

    Hell yeah Mao stays winning.

    I don't hear that talked about as a reason why capitalism is terrible much.

    Probably because the overwhelming majority of people agree it was bad, especially here on lemmy. Find me 5 people that say the potato famine was good, actually, and I'll find you 3 entire instances that'll ban me for saying "maybe killing 15-30 million people for societal progress isn't the best strategy."

    Tankies get more pushback here because nobody is singing the praises of capitalism.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Yeah people agree the famine in China was bad too.

    Say that on the triad I fucking dare you.

    There hasn't been a famine since then.

    Under a system with significant capitalist elements, you western dog. How many billionaires are there in China?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago*

    You mean the 'tankie triad'? I'm pretty sure I learned that on hexbear. Why don't you try posting it?

    They have "capitalist elements" because it's a long transition from a capitalist economic system to a communist classless society, the difference is who is directing the means of production and to what end the state is used for. And plenty of communists complain about China all the time. According to the Hurun Global Rich List China has 823 billionaires. I don't know what point you're trying to make.

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