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Almost 100,000 young men flee Ukraine in two months (www.telegraph.co.uk)
submitted 1 year ago by to c/worldnews@lemmy.ml
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[–] 1 point 1 year ago* (29 children)

UN found no genocide. Genocide is genocide when there's genocide, yes, but there's no genocide in Ukraine so there's no genocide in Ukraine.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (28 children)

    That link is empty for me. But is this also the same commission that found no evidence of genocide in Gaza for 2 years?

    There is genocide in Ukraine.

    Russia had kidnapped thousands of children in the first year of war - removing them from their families and forcing them in to Russian schools and the older children are being trained in the military to fight.

    Russia in the first days of the way when they captured many towns and cities, the troops took down signage and symbols of Ukraine. They target hospitals and schools and playgrounds with no regard. They fire their missiles and drones indiscriminately.

    Edit/ Also that Russia does not believe Ukraine exists and tries to deny the national identity of Ukraine - that’s an act of genocide This is widely reported.

    I don’t understand why you can hand wave the violence of Russia and justify their invasion.

    Russia have done a lot of what Israel has done if not more.

    I want the war to end and an end to the Palestine conflict. The only way is with the removal of the heads of states to be tried for war crimes, and the full removal of all forces.

    But that is a fantasy world apparently. Your friends in Russia can save face, money and man power by just getting the fuck out.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (27 children)

    No, this is fantasy. I'm not hand waiving anything, you're parroting unsubstantiated claims. Stories like kidnapping children are especially unsubstantiated.

    The war will end when Ukraine concedes. No matter how much materiel NATO donates, it cannot win, and the war is increasingly unpopular.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (22 children)
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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (21 children)

    Reports from Ukrainian intelligence, sure, not actual verified proof of erasing Ukrainian identity nor of kidnapping. Do you just trust Israel whenever it claims Hamas is torturing babies? Did you believe the story about Saddam's forces removing babies from incubators? You need verified proof before belief.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    Hers a simple google search for you. Many sources.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=ukraine+children+kidnapped&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb#ip=1

    the Wikipedia link, yourself having linked Wikipedia earlier

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abductions_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_war

    With the United Nations stating this is a war crime

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64985009

    https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/coiukraine/A_HRC_52_62_AUV_EN.pdf

    Tangential to this, I quite enjoy this young man’s recount of the conflict https://youtu.be/jlTnKYTxWOY

    But I bet this is all “right wing propaganda” somehow.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    I mean, sites like the BBC are right wing propaganda outlets. If you like, I can also copy and paste a bunch of sources:

    NATO expansion

    In May 1990 speech Secretary General Manfred Wörner said “The very fact that we are ready not to deploy NATO troops beyond the territory of the Federal Republic gives the Soviet Union firm security guarantees.”

    This shows 2 things:

    1. As we already knew NATO had told the Soviet Union although that it would not move further East than East Germany
    2. They understood full well that NATO moving East was seen as threatening by USSR given the promise not to do so was a “security guarantee” for them.

    https://www.nato.int/docu/speech/1990/s900517a_e.htm

    fascism

    maidan coup

    war crimes

    negotiations

    misc sources

    That doesn't actually form an argument, though.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    You already dumped a load of “sources” previously.

    I don’t think anyone is going to win by just showing information from either side of a position. I believe all your stuff is right wing propaganda. You believe all my stuff is right wing propaganda.

    As the war enters its 4th year all we can hope is that there is a steady resolution to the conflict. That Ukraine remains sovereign. That Russia stops killing civilians.

    Wether Ukraine cedes land to Russia for some reason is up to the Ukrainian people.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (9 children)

    Ukraine will cede the 4 oblasts and will likely be neutral to NATO at the end of the war, crippled and battered, vs the same results without the devastation of years of conflict had they surrendered months in when they had the chance. Ukraine has taken far less civilian casualties than they've claimed, and has dealt far more than they've claimed. Russia isn't some evil empire of villians, it's a country at war. It isn't Israel.

    I do agree that pasting tons of sources isn't going to do anything, that was the reason I posted so many (though you can feel free to check them, as I've already done for your sources). I do think it's funny that my sources are largely things like bbc and OHCR, just presenting a narrative that concedes basic material reality.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    You clearly distrust Ukrainian sources and trust Russian sources though.

    I don’t get how you can just go “no Ukraine don’t suffer civilian casualties” when Russia indiscriminately fire missiles and drones at cities.

    Russia at the moment is acting very much like an evil empire.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (7 children)

    I trust Russian sources more than you do and distrust Ukrainian sources more than you do. I don't blindly accept either. Russia isn't indiscriminately firing missiles and drones at cities, and neither is Ukraine. Both have at times targeted civilians, and both have at times unintentionally hit civilian targets. Russia isn't acting as an evil empire, it's trying to grab the four oblasts and demillitarize Ukraine after a decade of deescalation talks failed following the far-right Euromaidan coup.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Ah, so if it’s not indiscriminate then it is discriminate. Targeted.

    Hospitals. Shops. Schools. Businesses. Power.

    On video. In print.

    Also, the ousting of a pro Russian puppet due to not following the wishes of the people (free trade with Europe) should be quite telling. And then suddenly Russia rocks up with its military to try and force the issue.

    Putin doesn’t want Ukraine to have closer ties to Europe. He doesn’t want them being self sufficient. He wants them to be dependent on Russia and be a part of it. They’ve always wanted it. First for the grain and now for the whatever else he wants - oil, minerals and wealth no doubt.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    Yanukovych turned down the IMF loan that required privatizing and destroying safety nets like healthcare in favor of the Russian loan that didn't have the same strings attached, then the west couped him for it. It was never about "free trade." Russia didn't want the post-Euromaidan far-right regime to have ties to NATO while bombing the Donbass region.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Awfully convenient for you and Russia all these things don’t you think? Smells a bit on my bullshit detector. Why would an IMF load require privatising healthcare and removing safety nets when almost no other nation in Europe or the world for that matter has such things.

    What the loan did require was an introduction of austerity measures to help restore/bolster the economy, like ending certain gas subsidies (I suppose you could lump that in a safety net if you wish) and high government worker pay.

    The people did not want the “no strings attached” loan from Russia because they knew it would not solve anything and they knew things needed to change, otherwise they would be in the same position in short order, and it would certainly not be no strings attached. When the people start protesting the government you know something is amiss.

    They want less reliance on Russia, not more.

    Regarding the Donbass, I know we hate links, but this essay seems quite informative with a lot of sources and I’m curious your thoughts - likely far-right aligned with Russia but I’m hopeful you can keep an open mind.

    https://aspeniaonline.it/russian-disinformation-about-the-ukrainian-conflict-since-2014-fact-checking-and-recurring-patterns/

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    The IMF does that with almost every loan. Sorry to spring this up on you, but the west is a cabal of imperialist nations that exploit, loot, and plunder the world. It forces poverty and austerity measures to free up money for loans and foreign investment to own key infrastructure. This austerity comes in the form of privatizing and destroying safety nets, and the very same safety nets Europeans enjoy are funded by this imperialism.

    From The Nation: https://www.thenation.com/article/culture/the-rotten-roots-of-global-economic-governance/

    From The Elephant: https://www.theelephant.info/analysis/2025/01/16/debt-and-austerity-the-imfs-legacy-of-structural-violence-in-the-global-south/

    The people did want the Russian loan, that's why there was a civil war. The Russian loan would have been far better. Yanukovych went against the wishes of parliament, which was in his bounds as president to do so, then was couped by the west and the far-right Banderites.

    As for your source, it does indeed align with the far-right, pro-imperialist narrative. What it does is admit some basic facts, but twist them, exaggerate, and minimize, as all good propaganda does. I've read these western framed sources already, but I'm a communist, and as such I agree more with leftist analysis like that. My opinion is the common Marxist take, shared largely by PSL's statement and FRSO's statement.

    Since you love sources, why not read through these? They're almost all western sources, so you should understand that these people already try their best to present the far-right narrative you agree with, but they still can't help when basic facts arise:

    NATO expansion

    In May 1990 speech Secretary General Manfred Wörner said “The very fact that we are ready not to deploy NATO troops beyond the territory of the Federal Republic gives the Soviet Union firm security guarantees.”

    This shows 2 things:

    1. As we already knew NATO had told the Soviet Union although that it would not move further East than East Germany
    2. They understood full well that NATO moving East was seen as threatening by USSR given the promise not to do so was a “security guarantee” for them.

    https://www.nato.int/docu/speech/1990/s900517a_e.htm

    fascism

    maidan coup

    war crimes

    negotiations

    misc sources

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  • [+] -1 points 1 year ago (3 children)
    [removed by mod]
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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    Russia is capitalist, but doesn't have the immense imperialist infrastructure to plunder the world that the west has. China isn't imperialist, nor is BRI. China doesn't loot and plunder the global south like the west does, there's mutual development.

    When you say "the people wanted X," and I showed how that was not at all consistent, you then try to minimize that there was not a consensus at all as I pointed out.

    Russia is indeed not communist, nor is Ukraine, but the western imperialists provoked the war and are carving up Ukraine for it. I don't believe everything Russia says, and I don't believe everything Ukraine says. I even gave you a mountain of western sources backing up my points.

    Palestine isn't communist but I support them too. Me being a communist helps me analyze why this conflict is happening in the first place without just reducing everything to a battle of good vs evil like right-wingers do. Again, as I showed, my analysis is the most common communist analysis, you dehumanizing me and calling me a bot or a shill just because you can't actually accept that communists disagree with your pro-western, pro-NATO viewpoint is absurd.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I'm sorry for dehumanising you.

    There is strong argument though that china is steadfast in becoming imperialist though, and Russia already is wether you like to believe it or not. The very definition of imperialism:

    a policy of extending a country's power and influence through colonisation, use of military force, or other means.

    The chinese and russian spheres are immense. China owns the planet practically through their manufacturing exports, everyone relies on them. They have bought up many companies and land in every nation. They are a monopoly in many fields.

    Can you explain how the dreaded western imperialists are carving up Ukraine? When Russia is literally carving it up? First Crimea and now you say they want the 4 Oblasts. Taking.

    What are your thoughts on Putin's remarks of "all of Ukraine is ours" and that he sees them as "one people" (i.e not ukranian) and the firm belief of an old russian adage of wherever a russian soldier boot steps is russian soil.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    There isn't a strong argument that China is "steadfast in becoming imperialist." There's projection from western countries that have imperialized and colonized the global south for centuries. The liberal, western definition of imperialism you give is meant to makw any influence seem to be imperialism, it's vibes-based. A much better definition is one of extraction via export of capital, ie outsourcing and using millitary domination to force austerity on the global south (exactly the role of the IMF).

    China and Russia are not imperialist by this definition, one that is materialist, and accepted by the majority of the world and not just the west.

    The west provoked the war with Russia, sabotaged peace talks, and give aid in exchange for steep loans and rare earths. They are forcing Ukraine into an unwinnable war so that they can fleece Ukraine for everything.

    As for Putin, generally the people and land in Eastern Ukraine are Russian, that's why the divide exists. Western Ukraine is Ukrainian. Putin's words often get morphed through a game of telephone, exaggerated, or taken out of context. He's certainly no saint, but he's also not Hitler 2 like liberals claim.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    You trust everything Russia says though.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    No, I don't. I trust some things that can be factually verified, but I take nothing either side says at face value.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    And yet, your opinion is Russia are valiant saviours coming to free Russian speaking Ukrainians, and not the systematic destruction of Ukraine.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I've never once said either of those, because both are wrong.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Fair. It just feels like you are leaping to their defence.

    Putin has stated numerous times though that he considers Ukraine to be Russian and downplays their national identity. And go back enough in history and you do see a pattern.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    There is a degree of that, but often it's overplayed by pro-Ukrainian people to the degree that they believe Russia is trying to ethnically cleanse Ukraine, which is wrong, and is purely justification for continuing an unpopular war that the west uses to damage Russia and carve Ukraine out for resources.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    You can understand their position though surely if you an admit a degree of that.

    The ethnic cleansing may not be as “unsubtle” as Israel’s, but it is there, and there is history of it, and you cannot deny in Putins own words his dislike, or rather distaste and denial of the Ukrainian national identity, harkening back to imperialistic days.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    There's not ethnic cleansing in Ukraine, though. The nationalist Banderite movement that dominates Ukraine right now is similar to Israel saying everyone is out to destroy them. I don't deny Putin's words, but at the same time I also don't deny Ukrainian words when they say they want an ethnostate and are oppressing ethnic Russians in Ukraine.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I can say the same for you.

    Are you in Russias pocket to be parroting their fantastical claims?

    Why should Ukraine concede?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    No, I'm not parroting fantastical claims, nor am I paid to have a sober analysis of the Russo-Ukrainian War. You cannot say the same for me. Ukraine should concede (as they should have done when they had the chance a few months into the war) because they can't win, and all they are doing is getting more of themselves killed. That's why the war is increasingly unpopular, and Kiev relies on forced conscription.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Yes, you are. You just don’t see it apparently. You are repeating talking points from right wing Russia aligned media.

    What is your opinion on the Israeli invasion of Palestine? Should Palestine just cede Gaza to end the war?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    I'm repeating analysis even agreed upon by western sources, you're repeating far-right propaganda and talking points. The difference between the settler-colonial genocide of Palestine and the Russo-Ukrainian War is that Israel intends to exterminate all of Palestine, and must to complete their settler-colonial project, while Russia only wants the 4 oblasts, which are already pro-Russian (that's why Kiev has been bombing them for a decade). If Palestine surrenders, they die, if Ukraine surrenders then the war ends and the Donbass region joins Russia like they want to.

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